Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[SetFree]

It depends on what parts of the Bible you are talking about, @SetFree. When we talk about the teaching and historical passages, our study should come to the same conclusions, and we can learn from each other.

However, prophetic passages about the future and unique ones are open to different interpretations that we should agree to disagree on. For example, when we reached Revelation in seminary with our New Testament professor, he described five major interpretations of that book. I read the book in the light of each one and arrived at one of them, but I also subscribe to the fact that it's very difficult to interpret prophecies correctly until they are fulfilled. So, I hold onto my interpretation very loosely, because all of them have their problems.

By the way, I was a pastor in seven churches for 27 years studying and then preaching God's Word twice on Sundays. Since my retirement from church ministry for the past 16 years, I have been writing Christian books, including several Bible studies. So, I
have been studying God's Word from its own viewpoint.

I cannot agree with all the above. Bible prophecy in God's Word is not that difficult for one who stays in God's Word as written. What is different about it is that there are many preachers out there which God did not 'call' trying to define Bible prophecy when they haven't studied enough of God's Word to be able to discern.

So no, Bible prophecy is not open to all the 'wild' interpretations that suddenly pops into the head of the Biblically illiterate.

God gave us a method of HOW to approach study in His Word, and I've already explained in some of my posts what He showed us about that (from Scripture like 2 Timothy 2:15 and especially in Isaiah 28 about study of His Word 'precept upon precept', 'line upon line'.

 

[BruceLeiter]

I cannot agree with all the above. Bible prophecy in God's Word is not that difficult for one who stays in God's Word as written. What is different about it is that there are many preachers out there which God did not 'call' trying to define Bible prophecy when they haven't studied enough of God's Word to be able to discern.

So no, Bible prophecy is not open to all the 'wild' interpretations that suddenly pops into the head of the Biblically illiterate.

God gave us a method of HOW to approach study in His Word, and I've already explained in some of my posts what He showed us about that (from Scripture like 2 Timothy 2:15 and especially in Isaiah 28 about study of His Word 'precept upon precept', 'line upon line'.

During my 66 years of reading and studying God's Word, @SetFree, out of my 82 years, I have learned to interpret the Bible according to its own assumptions and meanings, not by someone else's ideas that he imposes on Scripture. For example, I heard that the idea of the rapture up to heaven was seen in some woman's vision a long time ago, not in the Bible. Is that true?

 

[SetFree]

During my 66 years of reading and studying God's Word, @SetFree, out of my 82 years, I have learned to interpret the Bible according to its own assumptions and meanings, not by someone else's ideas that he imposes on Scripture. For example, I heard that the idea of the rapture up to heaven was seen in some woman's vision a long time ago, not in the Bible. Is that true?

Yes, the woman you're talking about was Margaret McDonald. She was on her death bed and starting having visions and began making loose quotes of Bible Scripture mixed in with Christ's coming. Some preacher(s) by her bedside took it to mean Christ would secretly rapture His Church prior to the tribulation. At least that's what the documented sources says (see Dave MacPherson's documentation on that in his book The Rapture Plot.)

We in Christ, who study our Bible, and heed God's Word as written, well know that Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather the Church will be AFTER... the coming "great tribulation", as He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. Apostle Paul confirmed that timing also in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 with pointing to the time of the future resurrection for the 'asleep' saints which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends to earth from Heaven. And Paul also confirmed that timing in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the fact that the "man of sin" must... come first, and there will be a great apostasy, and then Jesus comes to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming.

So it doesn't take that much Bible study to 'know' for certain, that man's Pre-trib rapture theory is false and directly against what is written in The Word of God.

But for the Biblically illiterate and deceived, those who won't crack open their Bible nor check their preachers out in The Word, those show their faith is actually misplaced, and is more with men's traditions and the deceptions of this fleshy world with man's concept of religion. Thank God there is going to be a future Millennium reign by Lord Jesus and His elect to help straighten out those brethren which believe on Him, but will be deceived by the Antichrist.

 

[Frankj]

Thank God there is going to be a future Millennium reign by Lord Jesus and His elect to help straighten out those brethren which believe on Him, but will be deceived by the Antichrist.

How will this be done, how will it be carried out?

 

[SetFree]

How will this be done, how will it be carried out?

Ezek 44:23-24
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
KJV

 

[Frankj]

Ezek 44:23-24
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
KJV

OK, I've lost or misunderstood something somewhere.

I was of an understanding that those deceived by the Antichrist would all be dead at the start of the millennium and there would be no more false teaching, that there would be a new population born that would never know the deceit of the Antichrist that came before the millennium as it, and the false believers, were simply judged and gone.

So who are the people you refer to as being corrected by the elect as believing in him but deceived by the Antichrist during the millennium?

 

[SetFree]

OK, I've lost or misunderstood something somewhere.

I was of an understanding that those deceived by the Antichrist would all be dead at the start of the millennium and there would be no more false teaching, that there would be a new population born that would never know the deceit of the Antichrist that came before the millennium as it, and the false believers, were simply judged and gone.

So who are the people you refer to as being corrected by the elect as believing in him but deceived by the Antichrist during the millennium?

There won't be anymore false teaching in Christ's future Millennial reign. That's why we are told Satan will be locked in chains in his pit prison during that 1,000 years, and not able to tempt the nations again until he is released at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev.20). So there's no reason to think that just because wicked will still exist throughout that 1,000 years, with wrongly thinking they are free to still do wickedness. No, Christ will rule over the unsaved nations in that time with His "rod of iron" given Him from The Father (Psalms 2). And His elect also will reign with Him using that "rod of iron". Christ's future Millennium reign = a type of boot camp for many.

The belief that all... the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future return is a doctrine of Amillennialists. But they reject any idea of a literal 1,000 years reign by Jesus Christ.

See towards the end of Zechariah 14 where it shows the 'leftovers' of the nations that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day, will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the feast of tabernacles. And those nations which refuse to come up, there will be no rain upon their lands.

What this reveals for Christ's future 1,000 years reign is that mild rebellion will still exist by the unsaved on the level of still rejecting Christ. Jesus and His elect will rule over them with the "rod of iron", but as far as making them accept Jesus as their Savior, they will still have that free will choice. And those who still reject Him after the 1,000 years will have made their 'own' choice to perish in the "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years.

In John 5:28-29, Lord Jesus showed that on the day of His coming, ALL... in the graves will "come forth", i.e., be resurrected. And that includes those of the "resurrection of damnation" He said there, and that is prior... to the start of His 1,000 years reign with His elect. So those wicked dead of the "resurrection of damnation" that are raised on the day of Christ's future coming will be there throughout His 1,000 years reign.

It is the 'unsaved' nations that Christ's "rod of iron" is for. Yet Ezekiel 44 also mentions Levites that went astray when the 'house of Israel' went astray, and how they will also be under discipline in that future 1,000 years, their even being assigned menial duties in Christ's future Millennial temple. (See Ezekiel 44). If you know your Bible history about God having split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, after Solomon's day the term "house of Israel" meant ONLY... the northern ten tribe kingdom which God scattered out of the holy land first. There's archaeological links to that "house of Israel" in their captivity to Assyria linked to the Cimmerian tribes that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe. One group of them passed through Caucasus Mountains and began calling themselves Caucasians. My point? God is not simply pointing to Jews of literal Levites in Ezekiel 44, but particularly to preachers in Christ's Church, for that is who the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel became as the historical western Christian nations. And recall per John 14 Jesus mentioned there are many "mansions" (abodes) in His Father's 'house', that house is God's house mentioned there in those Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters, which are all future Millennial chapters.

 

[Frankj]

I'm still not seeing how the Antichrist and those deceived by him prior to the Millennium fit into this. I thought that the judgment had already taken place and they were dead and gone by that time, after the defeat of Satan and his forces at the final battle of the age.

So what am I missing?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Yes, the woman you're talking about was Margaret McDonald. She was on her death bed and starting having visions and began making loose quotes of Bible Scripture mixed in with Christ's coming. Some preacher(s) by her bedside took it to mean Christ would secretly rapture His Church prior to the tribulation. At least that's what the documented sources says (see Dave MacPherson's documentation on that in his book The Rapture Plot.)

We in Christ, who study our Bible, and heed God's Word as written, well know that Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather the Church will be AFTER... the coming "great tribulation", as He said in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. Apostle Paul confirmed that timing also in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 with pointing to the time of the future resurrection for the 'asleep' saints which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends to earth from Heaven. And Paul also confirmed that timing in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the fact that the "man of sin" must... come first, and there will be a great apostasy, and then Jesus comes to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming.

So it doesn't take that much Bible study to 'know' for certain, that man's Pre-trib rapture theory is false and directly against what is written in The Word of God.

But for the Biblically illiterate and deceived, those who won't crack open their Bible nor check their preachers out in The Word, those show their faith is actually misplaced, and is more with men's traditions and the deceptions of this fleshy world with man's concept of religion. Thank God there is going to be a future Millennium reign by Lord Jesus and His elect to help straighten out those brethren which believe on Him, but will be deceived by the Antichrist.

I completely agreed with you until you said that the 1,000 years is yet future. Since Revelation 19 ends with Jesus' second coming, I think that the symbolic 1,000 years is the present age between Jesus' two comings, when Satan is prevented from keeping the gospel from spreading, and that perhaps God set him loose now. I guess that makes me an a-mil, but I'm also a pan-mil; it'll all pan out!

 

[SetFree]

I completely agreed with you until you said that the 1,000 years is yet future. Since Revelation 19 ends with Jesus' second coming, I think that the symbolic 1,000 years is the present age between Jesus' two comings, when Satan is prevented from keeping the gospel from spreading, and that perhaps God set him loose now. I guess that makes me an a-mil, but I'm also a pan-mil; it'll all pan out!

Did you miss Bible study about the mark of the beast, and image of the beast of Revelation 13:16-17, and Rev.14:8-11? That "image of the beast" and "mark" is not manifest yet today. It is for the coming "great tribulation" time at the end of this world just prior to Christ's 2nd coming.

The Rev.20 chapter shows Satan being locked in chains, in his pit prison, and not able to deceive the nations anymore for the "thousand years". Do you think Satan is not deceiving people today still? If you think Satan today is no longer able to deceive, then it means you disagree with Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 5:8, for the devil is still very active today.

Rev.20 also declares about the saints who refused to take the 'mark' and/or did not worship the beast or his image, starting their reign with Jesus. That hasn't happened yet today either.

So no, the Bible Scripture is easy to understand with what I'm saying above because that is actually what is written. One who believes something else other than those Scriptures as written simply have chosen to believe the 'traditions of men' instead.

And oh yeah... Christ's 1st coming was over 2,000 years ago. So any idea that His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is supposed to happen in between His 1st coming and His 2nd coming is already way... past that possibility.

 

[Oseas3]

No, share the good news and let God do the rest!

Greetings in Christ JESUS our Lord Philippians 3:20-21: 20 Our conversation is in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8, take a look); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body (Aleluia!!!), that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body(Aleluia!!!), according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. Aleluia!!! Our Lord JESUS promised: Luke 20:35-36- 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Matthew 5:5 combined with Revelation 5:10 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 10 And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 11:15-18 (combined with Revelation 5:6-14, take a look) 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (See Matthew 28:18) 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 19:6-9 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord GOD omnipotent reigneth. -> (See 1Corinthians 15:24-28) 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. (Amen, Aleluia!!) 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen(Alleluia!!!), clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of GOD. - Amen. Alelluia!!! May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection Amen NOTE: Daniel 12:10 (combined with Matthew 24:35, take a look) 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Did you miss Bible study about the mark of the beast, and image of the beast of Revelation 13:16-17, and Rev.14:8-11? That "image of the beast" and "mark" is not manifest yet today. It is for the coming "great tribulation" time at the end of this world just prior to Christ's 2nd coming.

The Rev.20 chapter shows Satan being locked in chains, in his pit prison, and not able to deceive the nations anymore for the "thousand years". Do you think Satan is not deceiving people today still? If you think Satan today is no longer able to deceive, then it means you disagree with Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 5:8, for the devil is still very active today.

Rev.20 also declares about the saints who refused to take the 'mark' and/or did not worship the beast or his image, starting their reign with Jesus. That hasn't happened yet today either.

So no, the Bible Scripture is easy to understand with what I'm saying above because that is actually what is written. One who believes something else other than those Scriptures as written simply have chosen to be the 'traditions of men' instead.

And oh yeah... Christ's 1st coming was over 2,000 years ago. So any idea that His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is supposed to happen in between His 1st coming and His 2nd coming is already way... past that possibility.

You say that those events haven't happened yet. Maybe, you're right, or we haven't interpreted them correctly. Perhaps, the "1,000 years" don't depict a literal time; 10x10x10 has 10, which is a complete number, just as three is. Revelation is full of symbolic numbers, things, and events. A few of them are explained. Why would you take 1,000 literally when the other numbers in that inspired book are symbolic? Just because certain events haven't happened yet is no reason to disregard the interpretation that the present age is the "1,000" years between Jesus' first and second comings. It is possible.

 

[SetFree]

You say that those events haven't happened yet. Maybe, you're right, or we haven't interpreted them correctly. Perhaps, the "1,000 years" don't depict a literal time; 10x10x10 has 10, which is a complete number, just as three is. Revelation is full of symbolic numbers, things, and events. A few of them are explained. Why would you take 1,000 literally when the other numbers in that inspired book are symbolic? Just because certain events haven't happened yet is no reason to disregard the interpretation that the present age is the "1,000" years between Jesus' first and second comings. It is possible.

We can be certain those Rev.20 events have not happened yet today, simply because of what that Scripture says as written. When God's Word gives a number that is meant 'metaphorically' like you are saying, He tells us so, we don't have to guess when He does that either.

For example, in Ezekiel 4:6 God told Ezekiel to lay upon his side to represent bearing iniquity for the house of Judah for forty days, God then said each day in that represented a year. Does that mean we can just slap that 'day for a year' idea on any... Bible prophecy that mentions days?? No! Yet some do exactly that.

So in Revelation 20, is there any... kind of symbolic wording there about that "thousand years" to make us think it is meant metaphorically, and not about a literal period of a thousand years? No, there is nothing written there that gives us that notion.

Where then does the idea that "thousand years" not being a literal period come from? It comes from the 'doctrines of men'. Some man with an agenda thought that up and pushed it, especially in a time in the 2nd century A.D. when the early Church bought into the falsehood that Christ's Kingdom became manifest on earth right after the Passion of Christ. Yet we know for certain Christ's actual physical, literal Kingdom requires a whole lot of Bible prophecy that was not fulfilled back in the time of the early Church, and those Bible prophesies still have not been fulfilled yet today, and won't be until Lord Jesus returns to earth as written in God's Word.

And I don't know who put the idea in your mind that Christ's Book of Revelation is full of 'symbolic' numbers. Revelation is full of symbolic metaphors, I'll give you that, but symbolic numbers? Not so much. I also find it surprising that so many brethren are not really aware that Christ's Book of Revelation is given in a prophetic style like that of the Old Testament Books of the prophets. And many of the symbols and metaphors in Revelation actually originate from the Old Testament prophets. Brethren who do not realize that suggests to me that they have not actually studied the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. To properly understand Christ's Revelation, doing that is a necessity. It's even a necessity to understand many New Testament doctrines.

 

[SetFree]

I'm still not seeing how the Antichrist and those deceived by him prior to the Millennium fit into this. I thought that the judgment had already taken place and they were dead and gone by that time, after the defeat of Satan and his forces at the final battle of the age.

So what am I missing?

It depends on what your Church is teaching, or who you are listening to. The Amill doctrine goes back to the 2nd century A.D., but it was not a doctrine among the 1st century Church. The Church fathers of the 1st century were all Premillennialists, accepting that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 only begins at His future 2nd coming.

The Amill doctrine instead believes that on the day of Christ's return, that God's final Judgment happens right then, and all the wicked are destroyed. But that is not what God's Word in many Scriptures teaches. I've already mentioned how Zechariah 14, which is a post-return of Christ type Bible chapter, shows leftovers of the nations that will have come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world being made to bow to Christ as KING, and come up to Jerusalem to worship Him and keep the Feast of Tabernacles. How will those unsaved be able to do that if they are destroyed on the day of Christ's coming?

Likewise, in Revelation 3:9, Lord Jesus said He will make those of His enemies, of the "synagogue of Satan", to come worship at the feet of His elect Church of Philadelphia. That kind of thing has never happened during this present world, and won't ever in this present world. How can that be fulfilled if those of that "synagogue of Satan" are all destroyed on the day of Christ's coming?

I'm seeing the doubts you have, which likely are caused from men's Amill doctrine, being pushed on several Christian forums today. So some Amill folks must have decided to do some kind of renewal of that false doctrine today.

 

[BruceLeiter]

We can be certain those Rev.20 events have not happened yet today, simply because of what that Scripture says as written. When God's Word gives a number that is meant 'metaphorically' like you are saying, He tells us so, we don't have to guess when He does that either.

For example, in Ezekiel 4:6 God told Ezekiel to lay upon his side to represent bearing iniquity for the house of Judah for forty days, God then said each day in that represented a year. Does that mean we can just slap that 'day for a year' idea on any... Bible prophecy that mentions days?? No! Yet some do exactly that.

So in Revelation 20, is there any... kind of symbolic wording there about that "thousand years" to make us think it is meant metaphorically, and not about a literal period of a thousand years? No, there is nothing written there that gives us that notion.

Where then does the idea that "thousand years" not being a literal period come from? It comes from the 'doctrines of men'. Some man with an agenda thought that up and pushed it, especially in a time in the 2nd century A.D. when the early Church bought into the falsehood that Christ's Kingdom became manifest on earth right after the Passion of Christ. Yet we know for certain Christ's actual physical, literal Kingdom requires a whole lot of Bible prophecy that was not fulfilled back in the time of the early Church, and those Bible prophesies still have not been fulfilled yet today, and won't be until Lord Jesus returns to earth as written in God's Word.

And I don't know who put the idea in your mind that Christ's Book of Revelation is full of 'symbolic' numbers. Revelation is full of symbolic metaphors, I'll give you that, but symbolic numbers? Not so much. I also find it surprising that so many brethren are not really aware that Christ's Book of Revelation is given in a prophetic style like that of the Old Testament Books of the prophets. And many of the symbols and metaphors in Revelation actually originate from the Old Testament prophets. Brethren who do not realize that suggests to me that they have not actually studied the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. To properly understand Christ's Revelation, doing that is a necessity. It's even a necessity to understand many New Testament doctrines.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Satan has been restrained during the time since Jesus' first coming from holding back the spread of the gospel.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Believers have been "coming to life" through God's gift of the new birth to reign with Jesus in heaven (the "first resurrection").
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
I think that since WWI, PERHAPS, Satan has been let loose to gather his "troops."

 

[BruceLeiter]

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Satan has been restrained during the time since Jesus' first coming from holding back the spread of the gospel.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Believers have been "coming to life" through God's gift of the new birth to reign with Jesus in heaven (the "first resurrection").
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
I think that since WWI, PERHAPS, Satan has been let loose to gather his "troops."

If you read some history, I remember in history class that the professor said the church's members in those countries where it was established were universally expecting the second coming of Jesus in A.D. 1,000. There are some passages in Revelation that give us the clues about its symbolic nature. If John had explained all the symbolism, the Roman authorities would have put him up for treason because the direct meanings pointed to Rome, but prophecy often has direct and distant meanings.

Rev 1:4b Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,
The torches are the seven spirits, but the Rev. 1:4b-5 shows that they are the Holy Spirit, because he is with the Father and Jesus.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
It's obvious that the Lamb is symbolically Jesus, because the following song identifies him:
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
We will reign with and under Jesus on the earth! He will do it after God re-makes this earth into the new earth (Rev. 21:1).
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
These are just a few of the explanations of the symbolism in this apocalyptic book, which is a series of symbolic visions.

 

[SetFree]

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Satan has been restrained during the time since Jesus' first coming from holding back the spread of the gospel.

It is not proper to write comments immediately below Bible Scripture, like you did above with the statement in orange. In your previous posts you show you know how to separate paragraphs, so I don't know why you would do something like the above.

Your statement in orange is just a fictional affirmation.

An affirmation is just a statement of declaration, whether true or not true. Thus it does not prove anything.

There is NO Bible Scripture stating that Satan was 'bound' at the time of Lord Jesus' crucifixion. Only Scripture that declares Jesus' victory is given, and that Satan would be 'cast out'. And even then, that does not give any specific like Satan being bound in chains like the Rev.20:1-3 Scripture for after Christ's future return does. So let me tell you how common sense works. Since Rev.20:1-3 ONLY exists that describes Satan being 'bound' in chains in his pit prison, which is for after Jesus' future return when His elect will reign with Jesus, that's a major Bible proof that Satan was NOT bound at the cross.

God's Word actually works similar to Boolean Logic in many Scriptures, like: 'If 3 does not equal 4, Then False. If 3 equals 3, Then True.'

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Believers have been "coming to life" through God's gift of the new birth to reign with Jesus in heaven (the "first resurrection").

Your statement WRONGLY ASSUMES then, that "thousand years" began at Christ's death and resurrection, for that is actually when The Gospel was first preached with those who believed being "born again" of The Spirit (John 3). That was over 2,000 years ago when Lord Jesus' death and resurrection happened. So just HOW... does that fit with that Revelation 20 prophecy about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over ALL... the unsaved?

Is Jesus ruling today with His elect over ALL THE UNSAVED PEOPLE in today's world? NO, of course not. You can try... and tell yourself that LIE all you want, but it will mean absolutely nothing but a fantasy that false prophets have dreamed up that want you on 'their' personal agenda.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
I think that since WWI, PERHAPS, Satan has been let loose to gather his "troops."

Maybe you... ought to write your OWN FANTASY NOVEL, instead of trying to turn God's Word into one.

 

[SetFree]

If you read some history, I remember in history class that the professor said the church's members in those countries where it was established were universally expecting the second coming of Jesus in A.D. 1,000. There are some passages in Revelation that give us the clues about its symbolic nature. If John had explained all the symbolism, the Roman authorities would have put him up for treason because the direct meanings pointed to Rome, but prophecy often has direct and distant meanings.

I've been a student of history all my life.

The Protestant Reformers thought the Catholic pope was the coming Antichrist at the end, thus they also thought they were living in the final generation that would see Jesus' 2nd coming. It didn't happen.

The Jews at Jesus' 1st coming thought Messiah would come as a national leader to free them from Roman rule. It didn't happen, and Christ's Apostles originally thought that too.

But what does all that have to do with the price of books in Europe??? Not a thang.


Just by your rambling above, you reveal that you have succumbed to men's fleshy philosophy type thinking, and not discerning matters that are spiritual in God's written Word. I can see how it is impossible for you to understand anything deeper in God's Word than just the basic Gospel Message.

And I hear that saying, that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbology all the time, when in reality it is only written in the same style as the Books of God's Old Testament prophets. There was even some misguided soul long ago that claimed the Book of Revelation was written by a pagan, and not by Apostle John, simply because the Book had so much symbology in it that none of the Apostles could have been its author! What a crock.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It is not proper to write comments immediately below Bible Scripture, like you did above with the statement in orange. In your previous posts you show you know how to separate paragraphs, do I don't know why you would do something like the above.

Your statement in orange is just a fictional affirmation.

An affirmation is just a statement of declaration, whether true or not true. Thus it does not prove anything.

There is NO Bible Scripture stating that Satan was 'bound' at the time of Lord Jesus' crucifixion. Only Scripture that declares Jesus' victory is given, and that Satan would be 'cast out'. And even then, that does not give any specific like Satan being bound in chains like the Rev.20:1-3 Scripture for after Christ's future return does. So let me tell you how common sense works. Since Rev.20:1-3 ONLY exists that describes Satan being 'bound' in chains in his pit prison, which is for after Jesus' future return when His elect will reign with Jesus, that's a major Bible proof that Satan was NOT bound at the cross.

God's Word actually works similar to Boolean Logic in many Scriptures, like: 'If 3 does not equal 4, Then False. If 3 equals 3, Then True.'




Your statement WRONGLY ASSUMES then, that "thousand years" began at Christ's death and resurrection, for that is actually when The Gospel was first preached with those who believed being "born again" of The Spirit (John 3). That was over 2,000 years ago when Lord Jesus' death and resurrection happened. So just HOW... does that fit with that Revelation 20 prophecy about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect over ALL... the unsaved?

Is Jesus ruling today with His elect over ALL THE UNSAVED PEOPLE in today's world? NO, of course not. You can try... and tell yourself that LIE all you want, but it will mean absolutely nothing but a fantasy that false prophets have dreamed up that want you on 'their' personal agenda.




Maybe you... ought to write your OWN FANTASY NOVEL, instead of trying to turn God's Word into one.

@SetFree, thank you for your correction of my posting style; I'll do better in the future.

Your comments assume that your INTERPRETATION is the only correct one of Revelation. You say that my statements are fictional, wrongly assuming, and fantasizing. Have you never heard that there are five major interpretations of Revelation, which I heard in my seminary New Testament class? How can you be so confident in your interpretation? I'm also a pan-millennialist; it'll all PAN OUT! Let's wait and see!

You talk from the silence of the Bible about the lack of the word "bound" in the accounts of the gospels. The Bible's silence means nothing; you have to do better than that. See Jesus' comment, after the 72 disciples return from their mission.

Luk 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”
Luk 10:18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Therefore, Jesus' ministry has defeated Satan, and Jesus rules the universe under the Father now, Paul says in Colossians 1 about Jesus' kingdom, in which we now live:

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

God did not transfer rulership of the universe to Satan, but to Jesus. As in the days of Job (chapters 1 and 2), Satan is under God's rule, but his attacks and actions are entirely his responsibility, as are humans' actions.

My belief is that the Book of Revelation is a series of visions, each one beginning and ending with Jesus' two comings: Revelation 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-19. Revelation 19 ends with a vision of Jesus on a white horse at his second coming, which contrasts with the donkey he rode into the old Jerusalem. Then, a new vision opens up with the tying of Satan (no mention of chains) and the 1,000 years, which are symbolically the complete number (ten multiplied three times, both of which are complete numbers in Revelation).

Now, this interpretation is just as possible of being correct as your literal one. Please don't let your pride control your looks at the Bible.

 

[SetFree]

@SetFree, thank you for your correction of my posting style; I'll do better in the future.

Your comments assume that your INTERPRETATION is the only correct one of Revelation. You say that my statements are fictional, wrongly assuming, and fantasizing. Have you never heard that there are five major interpretations of Revelation, which I heard in my seminary New Testament class? How can you be so confident in your interpretation? I'm also a pan-millennialist; it'll all PAN OUT! Let's wait and see!

Your statements supporting men's false Amill doctrine is... fictional. But what I showed from the 'actual' Bible Scripture of Rev.20, as written, is simply what God's Word declares. So it is definitely not MY interpretation, it is CHRIST'S Interpretation AS WRITTEN. What your silly assumption about my interpretation is just a statement of bad excuse to NOT heed the Rev.20 Scripture as written. It also falsely accuses me and anyone who can READ the ENGLISH of Rev.20 as not understanding simple English. Not only this, but what you said shows you... cannot even count properly, since the "thousand years" of Rev.20 means 1,000, and not 2,000 + as it has been since Jesus died on the cross.

Therefore, it isn't wise for me to continue conversation with you, because you show you have NO intention of keeping to Bible Scripture as written.