Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

[brightfame52]

1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversely for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.

 

[Frankj]

So we, each of us, were appointed for either wrath or salvation at creation with no other fate available to us?

That would seem to say we have no choice in the matter and striving for anything at all regarding our fate is just an exercise in futility.

As Einstein would say when examining a proposal, "Why would God do it that way?".

 

[brightfame52]

Those who were appointed to wrath were never objects of Gods Love, but conversely objects of His Hatred Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

I believe this hatred for the non elect vessels of wrath is as everlasting as His Love for His elect vessels of mercy.

 

[brightfame52]

@Frankj

So we, each of us, were appointed for either wrath or salvation at creation with no other fate available to us?

That is correct, and that for Gods own good pleasure

 

[JustTheFacts]

It's clear from Revelation that people have a choice to follow the beast or follow Jesus and if a person chooses to follow the beast, they will feel the wrath of God and be punished (Revelation 14:9-10).

 

[Frankj]

@Frankj



That is correct, and that for Gods own good pleasure

Wouldn't that suggest there is no sense in wanting or not wanting salvation since you have no say so in it and it will happen or not happen with or without your seeking it, que sera sera.

 

[brightfame52]

Wouldn't that suggest there is no sense in wanting or not wanting salvation since you have no say so in it and it will happen or not happen with or without your seeking it, que sera sera.

It may suggest that to you, I dont know since Im not and others arent you. Howevr scripture states than man naturally doesnt desire, seek, crave the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[BruceLeiter]

1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didnt die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversely for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.

Brightfame52, please consider the contexts of the verses you use, since the verses around them often points to a different interpretation. The most obvious example is the last one you use. In the conversations between Job and his so-called "friends," Job and his friends all have a false theology that a huge sin brings about huge suffering in life. That's reason his "friends" heap condemnation on Job and why he has a "beef" with God, because Job had been faithful or blameless (outwardly upright--Job 1:1--not perfect before God).

In this passage, he quotes his "friends'" bad theology that implied Job's extreme wickedness (verses 28 & 34):

Job 21:28 For you say, ‘Where is the house of the prince? Where is the tent in which the wicked lived?’
Job 21:29 Have you not asked those who travel the roads, and do you not accept their testimony
Job 21:30 that the evil man is spared in the day of calamity, that he is rescued in the day of wrath?
Job 21:31 Who declares his way to his face, and who repays him for what he has done?
Job 21:32 When he is carried to the grave, watch is kept over his tomb.
Job 21:33 The clods of the valley are sweet to him; all mankind follows after him, and those who go before him are innumerable.
Job 21:34 How then will you comfort me with empty nothings? There is nothing left of your answers but falsehood.”

 

[fuddy]

So then, in the interest of being honest with whomever I speak with, should I begin evangelizing by saying,
"Hey, sorry to say, but, chances are likely that God hates your guts and has doomed you to scream in agony and despair for all eternity in hell.
Of course, there's that outside chance that you might, JUST MIGHT, be one of the few he's chosen to love, instead... but I wouldn't count on it."

Shouldn't we be honest about the Gospel from the get-go?

 

[brightfame52]

Some have been appointed to disobedience 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Disobedience to the Gospel of Christ. Peter writes of them who obey not the Gospel 1 Pet 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Paul also Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These are the ones Christ didnt die for, and God had appointed them to wrath and disobedience.2

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

Brightfame52, please consider the contexts of the verses you use,

Nothing changes

 

[brightfame52]

Some have been ordained to condemnation from of old Jude 1:4,13

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[BruceLeiter]

So then, in the interest of being honest with whomever I speak with, should I begin evangelizing by saying,
"Hey, sorry to say, but, chances are likely that God hates your guts and has doomed you to scream in agony and despair for all eternity in hell.
Of course, there's that outside chance that you might, JUST MIGHT, be one of the few he's chosen to love, instead... but I wouldn't count on it."

Shouldn't we be honest about the Gospel from the get-go?

No, share the good news and let God do the rest!

 

[Frankj]

No, share the good news and let God do the rest!

Well, here's a question I gotta ask but it's not meant to offend or challenge anyone, just to give me some thought food.

If we believe that some are condemned no matter what, isn't sharing the good news of salvation with them as if it were something open to them be the same as lying to them since they have no chance at it in the first place?

 

[brightfame52]

Some men were born for destruction 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Peter here writing about false teachers, states unequivocally that they were as if brute beast, made or born to be taken and destroyed. The word made here is the greek word gennaō means:

of men who fathered children

1. to be born
2. to be begotten

And the word destroyed phthora means:

1. corruption, destruction, perishing
   1. that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
   2. in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
2. in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay

They have been born to bring in damnable heresies 2 Pet 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now these Christ did not die for, and are the ones appointed to wrath, which they Christ died for are not appointed to.3

 

[fuddy]

"Even denying the Lord THAT BOUGHT THEM." If the Lord bought these people, then they couldn't have been damned to hell from the beginning.

 

[brightfame52]

It was also known and had been prophesied that some were appointed to disobedience again 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Now Luke 2:34

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

The word set keimai means:

metaph.

1. to be (by God's intent) set, i.e. destined, appointed

This verse corresponds with 1 Pet 2:8

The word fall in Lk 2:34 is the word ptōsis:

a falling, downfall, metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

that many may fall and bring upon themselves ruin, i. e. the loss of salvation, utter misery, Luke 2:34, cf. Romans 11:11. 3

 

[brightfame52]

The Vessels of Wrath, them which Christ did not die for, and had always destined to wrath, are the goats on His left hand seen here Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand[goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make[appoint] one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now these were in exact opposite from them who have always been the vessels of mercy, the Sheep on His right hand, whom Christ died for Jn 10:11,15 Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This coincides with this Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[fuddy]

Bruce Letter - So you're saying we should conceal the truth from people by telling everyone we present the gospel to that Jesus died in their place because he loves them, when the truth is, the great majority of those to whom we speak he really didn't die for at all, and, in reality, actually hates them and never had any intention to save them at all?

That would make me a liar, wouldn't it?

 

[brightfame52]

Christs coming into the world, in addition to His primary redemptive purpose for His People Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and to open their eyes spiritually so they may see Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

There was also a secondary purpose, that was to blind the rest, those not chosen in Him, the reprobate, notice Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

There was a people in national israel that Jesus was referring to, Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

But this judicial blinding isnt limited to the reprobate jews, it also applies to the reprobate gentiles. It was always Gods purpose to blind them to the truth, and never His intention to convert them by it

Jn 12:40


He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 3