Can faith save him?

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is alone in some people. It appeared to be alone in Simon Magus. It appears to be alone in many political leaders who speak of their faith and act in very troubling ways. Saint James writes about people who give words rather than substance to the poor citing these people as examples of faith without works.

James 2:14-17 RSV What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

 

[Albion]

Faith is alone in some people.

If it is alone, meaning that "it " hasn't produced any change in lifestyle, then "it" is not faith. We would, in that case, be dealing merely with a claim of faith. This is what James was saying.

 

[Albion]

The Christian Gospel. Christianity. I tried to explain in post 58. I worked a bit on the post to try to make it clearer (I hope that helps).

Hmm. I take it that the change, the clarification, is in the red parts. To tell the truth, I cannot see any place where we disagree with each other.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is alone in some people. Saint James writes about them. It is unfaithful to pretend otherwise.

James 2:14-17 ESV What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

Simon Magus believed but did evil rather than good.

Acts 8:9-25 ESV But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practised magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. 10 They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great." 11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptised he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. 14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." 24 And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me." 25 Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
​

 

[Arsenios]

We are baptized into Christ, Arsenios. Scripture says so...
Immersed in Christ Jesus. Such a gracious gift of God to his elect children.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Yes, Menno, we are indeed Baptized INTO Christ...

So is it Harry and Maude who baptize us into Christ?

Or is it the Holy Spirit Who Baptizes us into Christ?

Or is it Christ Himself Who Baptizes us IN the Holy Spirit into Himself?

Here is the answer given in Holy Scripture:

Matt 3:11
I indeed baptize you IN water unto repentance:
but He that cometh after me is mightier than I,
Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
He shall baptize you IN the Holy Spirit,
And in fire:

The word IN is Strong's Number 1722
Defined as: in, by, with etc
The word BY only means NEAR - A derivative of IN...
It does not name the doer...
Christ IS the Baptizer, as later Scripture affirms...
Yet He Baptizes through the hands of His Disciples, remember?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Hmm. I take it that the change, the clarification, is in the red parts. To tell the truth, I cannot see any place where we disagree with each other.

Actually, I edited the entire post (# 58). I think what's being attempted in this thread is more than you perhaps suggest.... I think there's a reason why some are NOT posting, "You Protestants are right - faith in Christ (that is faith and not a wrong claim) does save - and as you Protestants teach, such faith in Christ is joined with our works toward others - yup, that's what you're saying and that's what James is saying and as a Catholic, I'm 100% in agreement." I just note the AMAZING determination... the constant debate.... IF our esteemed Catholic brother AGREED with us on this, he would have said so - years ago - many, many, many times - in countless threads. There's fundamental and important DISAGREEMENT here.... He's not "missing" what we're saying, he's disagreeing.


SOMETIMES, Christians simply want to stress different things. IMO, that happens a lot when Lutherans and Catholics discuss. And they may not be disagreeing AT ALL, they fully AGREE, they just choose to focus on different parts of the truth. Those discussions go, "You are absolutely CORRECT! IMO, we need to stress is part of that!" They don't go, "You are wrong.... here's what is true" or "I'll endlessly and purposely gloss over what you are saying .... or even imply it's wrong..... because THIS is the truth of it."
Remember..... Luther objected to the radical synergism of the Indulgence Sellers (clearly violating the Council of Orange) and Luther's job (as a Doctor of the Church) was to report clear heresy.... he expected to be thanked for it! Luther noted that Jesus is the Savior.... that we are justified in the narrow sense by God's grace through the atoning work of Jesus received via the divine gift of faith (all sound CATHOLIC teaching - officially anyway) - you know, John 3:16. And the Church chose to "side" with the Indulgence Sellers (to Luther's SHOCK, a surprise he had to his dying day) - some say out of the profound ignorance of the Catholic leadership of the day, some say out of fear that right teaching would diminish the income flow, some say because Luther as a German found himself in a political war for power in the Holy Roman Empire, and some (like me) because Catholic theology had become semi-Pelagian and disagreed with Luther (as it officially stated at Trent). Friend, what you and I (and James!) is saying is what Luther said..... uber-Catholics aren't going to agree with us (and therefore Luther); they'll play all sorts of games to avoid it, they'll twist this in view of their semi-Pelagianism.




.

 

[Arsenios]

In other words, does God save us without our help or do we have to help ourselves?

We have to ask God in the obedience of repentance...

Indeed, obedience to Christ is what Christ, in His Ekonomia, GAVE to us as a Gift, that we should be obedient...

The Gift of the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples ...

Through whom we too are discipled in the Ekklesia, the Body, of Christ...

Just as Christ Himself as Man lived in total obedience to His Father...

So also are we to live in obedience to Christ Who is OUR Father...

Our obedience does not save us, but Christ does...

And He does so on the basis of our obedience to Him...

For BY this obedience, we ARE asking, that we should receive...

The obedience does not save us...

But we must turn ourselves toward Christ...

For He does not save those who turn themselves away from Him when He Calls...

Because Adam fell through his own disobedience to God...

And turned away from God in shame and hid in the Garden...

And was expelled there-from...

So also must sinful man turn from creation to God in obedience...

That God Who is Faithful should save repentant man...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Right on target....



Is Jesus the Savior... or is He merely a helper/enabler?

If He is the Savior, then He saves us and Christianity is correct and the Gospel valid.

If He is only a Enabler.... we only need a little help from a Friend.... if we essentially save ourselves (albeit with divine help) then Jesus is not the Savior, Christianity is a lie, the Gospel wrong, and every OTHER religion is correct; then we don't need any Savior we just need HELP so we can eventually save ourselves.

It's really quite simple.



Satan works overtime to make this as complicated as possible... to make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible... to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror... to deny the Gospel of Christianity. And sometimes he succeeds.

The sin whereby death entered into the Kosmos was the disobedience of Adam...
The virtue by which man in Adam is redeemed is obedience to Christ...

Which is why obedience is the Treasury of the Orthodox Christian Faith of Christ...
Others seek their authority, scripitural or Ekklesiastical, as their treasury...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But since Faith is never alone, the point is just a trick with words.

Sola Fide is "Trick Words"???

D'Accord!!


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

We have to ask God in the obedience

Therein lies a fundamental disagreement.... Here's the Protestant objection.....


What you appear to be saying is that justification (the coming to have a new relationship with God.... the coming of spiritual life.... the coming of faith in Christ as our SAVIOR.... the coming of the Holy Spirit) hinges on self an the "obedience" of self to the Law. This makes salvation a matter of the Law and our obedience to it. Christ, it seems, merely rewards our obedience..... He doesn't save anyone, He doesn't give anything, He's not even merciful ... He simply notes when one has been obedient to the Law.

From the Protestant position, this is profoundly false. And it destroys Christianity which is based on the Truth that we are sinners in need of the divine SAVIOR and that God has given such in Jesus Christ; that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus saves. From the Protestant perspective, this is even worse than Judaism or Islam or Bhakti Hinduism, which at least point to the essential need of divine HELP (albeit not a Savior) - you seem to eliminate even that. From the Protestant perspective, this is pure Law and the complete elimination of the Gospel. This is far worse than the Pelagianism denounced at the Ecumenical Council of Orange.

Protestants believe that without God, without faith, without the Holy Spirit.... people simply have sin, they "fall short" of all that God wills (the definition of sin)... and that they are thus spiritually dead. Other religions are wrong when they decree that NONETHELESS, dead people can give life to themselves and cause themselves to come to life (Protestants hold that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life), dead atheists can fulfill the will of God on their own (becoming perfect in righteousness, absolute in holiness and love, never "falling short" of anything God wills), and that eventually (alhough perhaps needing several reincarnations) save self. No, we hold that God must SAVE us. That it is the free gift of God, the inheritance of God. Like dead Lazarus, God performs a miracle (the dynamics mysterious to us) that GIVES life.

GAVE to us as a Gift

If it is a GIFT then it can't be a reward. By placing what you (wrongly) call a "gift" AFTER our own meriting.... it's not a gift at all. God is simply giving what is owed.

So also are we to live in obedience to Christ Who is OUR Father...

Here is where you seem to need to confuse things.... who exactly is the "WE?" Of course, if "WE" means Christians - those justified, those WITH the divine gifts of life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit) - then yes, CHRISTIANS are called to very great things! But then your earlier statement is wrong: It all doesn't hinge on the dead one FIRST being obedient to the Law; you've simply got it completely backwards. Are we justified via the Law and our perfect obedience to such - and thereby dead self giving life to self, dead atheist giving faith to self, dead giving the Holy spirit to self - and THEN God just being just and giving what is due? Or is it a case of God in mercy granting the free gift, the inheritance of justification and as a result we are called and empowered to become Christ like in all things?

Our obedience does not save us, but Christ does

So WHOSE obedience justifies whom?


EVERYONE agrees that the Christian, the Justified one in the narrow sense, the one WITH the free gifts, the inheritance of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit, that one is obedient, that one grows in love and morality, that one becomes more Christ-like..... no one debates that.... but are you reversing it, turning that upside down, in order to disagree? First you said that FIRST we must be obedient to the Law.... it's all a matter of Law and whether we are obedient to it..... but then you seem to agree with Protestants that justification is a matter of a GIFT, something Jesus does? Which is it?

The obedience does not save us...But we must turn ourselves toward Christ...

When y0u make up your mind, let us know.


Is this just semantics? No. All of Christianity hinges on it..... the very foundation of Christianity depends on it.... the very thing that makes Christianity distinctive from the world's religions.... it all hinges on this point. Is Jesus the Savior or is self? Are we saved by the Law or by the Gospel? Are we justified by Jesus's obedience or our own? Does God give or do we earn? Is it a gift or a just reward? If we simply are missing a few points..... and just need some divine help to clean up our act..... and when we do, God will justly do as He thus must.... then every other religion the world is correct. If we are dead in our tresspasses and sins..... If we are saved via God's mercy and grace .... if we need a SAVIOR and God has supplied that in Jesus Christ and in HIS obedience, incarnation, dead and resurrection.... if God is the Lord of Life and gives life.... then Christianity is correct. It all hinges on this point, my friend.

I understand (and agree with you) we cannot speak of the Gospel without also speaking the Law..... I agree with you that Christians are called to great things and that faith that is faith is active in love and obedience and service.... and I agree that we simply do not know the "workings" or "dynamics" of HOW God does this miracle of justification...... but with all my soul, I reject any repudiation of Christ's works, anything that makes Christ seem small and self big.... anything that suggests Christ is little more than helper or possibility-maker or offerer ( a role Jews, Muslims and some Hindus are glad to give him). I'm trouble by those who seem so opposed when Protestants state, "Jesus is the Savior and thus saves."




.

 

[Arsenios]

Here's the deal.... Clearing the smoke.... getting to the root of the issue...

May your effort be blessed!

We've all witness this.... in person and on the 'net..... A Protestant does as Luther and Calvin did, proclaim that Jesus is the Savior....

And all agree...

and BANG.... often Catholics (and perhaps some others) seem to come unglued....

The glue-loose I am seeing is not on the Catholic side, so perhaps you have made an intemperate remark...

repudiating what the Protestant says .....

Never even so much as once repudiating the statement "Jesus is the Savior"... That glue is solid...

going on and on and on and on and on..... in thread after thread...... for perhaps hundreds of pages..... horrified by the point that Jesus is the Savior (and thus saves).

Your glue just came loose in the falseness of your accusation...

Note, it's NOT "Yes! Jesus is the Savior! You are 100% correct!

Yes, Jesus is the Savior - In this statement you do well - You are 100% correct...

Of course, you are also correct that once justified we are called and empowered to great things" because of course, everyone would just say "AMEN" - and the thread would end, the issue terminate and all would agree. Nope. That's not what happens, is it?

Of course not - And this because of what is being piggy-backed in on the back of the obvious truth...
You begin with Justification as the beginning of Salvation in Christ for sinners, and that is just not true...

Christianity is founded on the truth that we are sinners and NEED SAVING (not just a little help from a Friend.... we need the SAVIOR) and that God has supplied that SAVIOR.

Yup - God Himself became man that we should be saved by God...
That Salvation is CONDITIONAL on our willingness to obey Christ...

But the enemies of Christianity must destroy that and direct us to the point of every OTHER religion, those from Man (or worse) and not God, that we ain't so bad and all we need is a little help, an Enabler, and in time we'll clean things up and get good enough.

And here your glue is all over the floor again...

The need is to make Jesus as small and irrelevant as possible (hopefully to eliminate Him as SAVIOR at all!) and to make self as big and important as possible (essentially, the savior of self as self adequately tapped the help).

And now we are wading through your loose glue on the floor....

The need is to get our focus off the Cross (as much as possible) and on the mirror.

Yes, Narcissus loves Echo, eg more glue loosed...

Another words, to destroy Christianity and uphold the soteriology of the world, of all other religions.

And now a whole bucket of glue...

The creative ways they do this! Including one of the most illogical and silly of all: if two things are associated, they must have the same function, purpose and result. It's a SILLY point on the face of it, but Pelagius used it and it's still found today. James - writing to CHRISTIANS, notes that faith in Christ's works for us is joined with OUR works toward others.... okay, they are joined.... but the SILLY and ILLOGICAL (and unbiblical) point that ERGO they have the identical same function of saving us.... is just one way to diminish Jesus.

The Faith of Christ is OBEDIENCE to His Father...
OUR Faith, given BY Christ-God, is OBEDIENCE to OUR Father, Christ-God...

The Faith God GAVE to us IS Obedience to God...

James notes that if one SAYS he has faith but doesn't have works toward others, he simply is wrong in his SAYING.

AND in his DOING...

James does NOT state that faith in Christ is wrong, worthless, saves no one....

He even says that demons Believe, just like those who do not DO the Will of the Father...

he is not stating that faith in Christ does nothing.

You are right - It makes the demons tremble...

And anyone who teaches faith without works is teaching demonic theology and should tremble too!

It simply means what James states, it makes the SAYING false, that one SAYING he has faith in Christ (but shows this is not true by his lack of works) is just not telling the truth - his SAYING is false NOT that faith in Jesus is false, worthless, does nothing, doesn't save.

Just to look at such a man, whose works are hateful to God, one would know that he is not saved... So what if he then, predictably, lies and says he has faith and believes in God... The MMA teaches us to pay attention to what a person does, and not what he says... If a person tells you they have no faith, as many atheists do, and yet they are wedded to very good works, then you tell me, will they pass muster at the Last Judgement? While you and I proclaim our faith, and are wedded to sins? Where will WE end up?

It is just silly to argue as Pelagius did and some Catholics now do: if two things are joined, they must have the same function, purpose and result. Faith in Christ that IS faith in Christ is evidenced by our works toward others, THAT is what James is saying - and Protestants 100% agree.

And this is where you keep trying to sneak in a stinker here, because James does not say that good works are merely EVIDENCE of our oh so great and wonderful faith, but that it is OUR DOING of these works that is PERFECTING the Faith of Christ IN us... Do I need to take you to grammar school?

But it is wrong to say that faith that IS faith means nothing because Christ doesn't save, we gotta ADD our stuff, we gotta save ourselves by also supplying our own works, that it's Christ's works PLUS mine so that Jesus is (at most) PART Savior and self is PART Savior (self doing the part that actually matters). Pelagianism is wrong.... James is not guilty of that heresy. James is NOT supporting their Pelagianism and their efforts to diminish Jesus.

You are imposing an understanding on the text of James that is not there - eg REAL faith VS UNREAL faith - James distinction is between living faith and dead belief, where both are the same terms... Faith alone is dead belief... And your reply is that faith that IS faith also as a consequence of really BEING faith WILL produce good works - And this in the face of James 2:22 , where he affirms that the doing of the works of the Faith PERFECTS the Faith one is DOING...

The point being that Faith is Doing, and it is YOU who DO...

You who do, boo boo, have to do do the Faith in obedience to Christ, for such obedience to the Gospel IS the Faith Christ discipled to His Disciples...

Do you want the living Faith of Christ in works?
OR...
Do you want the dead belief of faith alone no works?

Satan works overtime to undermine the Gospel, diminish Christ, and destroy Christianity..... His goal is to get our eyes

OFF the bloody Cross and empty Tomb, to think LESS to little to none of Jesus.... and to get us to look in the mirror.... to make self the savior of self (even if he needs to throw in some divine enabling). You gotta wonder..... why the simple point that Jesus is the Savior cause SO much debate, so much ridicule, on and on and on and on and on..... in thread after thread at times for over a hundred pages of posts?

And now you just emptied the whole VAT of GLUE all over your attilted windmills!

See posts 54 and 55





.

Your favorite attribution!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm sorry to say it, but I don't understand what the disagreement is all about.

It is about the role of works in the Faith of Christ as obedience to God...

Josiah says the works are a consequence of the Faith of Christ...

The Ancient Faith of the Apostolic Fathers hold that willfuil obedience to God is the Faith...

By his view, the sinner can do nothing to be saved by Christ...

In our view, the sinner can repent from his sins, be justified in Baptism, and overcome demonic powers...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

And all agree...

.... you may be excused for having never heard of the Reformation. Yeah it waa a WESTERN thing.

You begin with Justification as the beginning of Salvation in Christ for sinners, and that is just not true...

What comes before the beginning? Justification is about how it BEGINS...... with the GIVING of spiritual life, the GIVING of faith in Christ, the GIVING of the Holy Spirit.

Yup - God Himself became man that we should be saved by God...
That Salvation is CONDITIONAL on our willingness to obey Christ...

.... thus, salvation all hinges of SELF.... self being obedient to the Law. Self saves self.... by his obedience.

Thus, salvation is simply God justly rewarding the individual with was is due him.

The Faith God GAVE to us IS Obedience to God...

... when you make up your mind, let us know.


.... again, no one denies that faith is "obedient" as you put it, that faith is "busy with love." SEE POST #55 - actually listen to it for the classic Protestant position. The issue is whether faith in Christ (which OF COURSE is joined with our loving, obedient works or it's not actually faith AT ALL regardless of what one may SAY) is salvic or not: Is Jesus ALONE the Savior or is self the Savior (in whole or in part)? Is James saying that faith that saves is faith in Christ that is also active in our works OR is James saying that faith that saves is in Christ's works PLUS ALSO our own works? No, they aren't the same thing.... it's not semantics... it's the issue of whether OUR works are the basis of our justification so that self is a co-redeemer with Christ, Jesus is PART Savior and self is PART Savior). it's what separates Christianity from every other religion. Again, the error of some is if things are associated they ergo must have the same function, purpose and result. I don't believe that James is denying Christ as the Savior.... I don't think he is promoting the heresy of Pelagianism.... I think he is nothing that faith that IS faith is active. Just as Protestants stress... see post #55. The "debate" is not whether faith is active with works, the debate is over the object of that faith - is what we are replying on Jesus's works or our own (or both).... who is the Savior?


Your seeming desire to note that faith is "OBEDIENT" rather than the Protestant emphasis that faith is "active in loving service" seems irrelevant to me.... what is NOT irrelevant is your desire to credit the obedience of a dead atheistic sinner with the reason he is saved, making Christ's obedience irrelevant unless joined by our obedience. I know the East denies original sin, but I look at it this way: When I was baptized, I could be saved - although I wasn't even obedient to the point of breathing (I wasn't when I was baptized), I didn't walk any old ladies across the street.. but God GAVE us spiritual life just as He had physical life. I'm sure you'll disagree and I don't want MennoSota to rush in and make this about baptism, lol. Protestants agree with the ancient Creed - that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life, not that self is, not that the Holy Spirit OFFERS it to those who justly deserve the wages for what they have done (making JEsus irrelevant in terms of SAVING).

And anyone who teaches faith without works is teaching demonic theology and should tremble too!

No one does.

But there are those who teach that faith in Christ doesn't save because Christ isn't the Savior..... we save ourselves by our works. They reject that Christ is the ONLY Savior - they add self to that role; indeed, some are so bold as to teach that while Jesus did essential things, they are things that actually saves no one.... people get into heaven because of what THEY do, not Jesus. As our Catholic teachers taught us, "Technically, Jesus saves no one but He makes it possible for each to save himself" and "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you have to get yourself through that gate by what you do." In that case, Jesus as a role - it's just not of Savior.

Do I need to take you to grammar school?

James is NOT stating that faith in Christ alone doesn't save..... he is stating that SAYING that one has faith when their life proves otherwise is not saving. The error made by some Catholics (and perhaps by you) is that if two things are associated (even joined and inseparated) ERGO they have the same purpose, function and result. The error comes when trying to twist what James states to, "We are justified by faith in Christ's work PLUS ALSO faith in our own works." That's not what James said. Or do I need to take you to grammar school?




.

 

[Arsenios]

Therein lies a fundamental disagreement.... Here's the Protestant objection.....

Are we justified by Jesus's obedience or our own?

Neither - We are justified by God, and Christ IS God...

Does God give or do we earn?

"ASK and ye shall RECEIVE..."

Do you remember Who said this?

We ask, and God Gives...

Is it a gift or a just reward?
.

It is a Gift sought for and received...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

.... you may be excused for having never heard of the Reformation. Yeah it waa a WESTERN thing.

That was a great WAA, Josiah!

What comes before the beginning? Justification is about how it BEGINS...... with the GIVING of spiritual life, the GIVING of faith in Christ, the GIVING of the Holy Spirit.

Then how do you understand this sequencing by Paul in Romans 8 ??

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Foreknow,
He also did Foreordain
to be conformed to the Image of his Son,
that He should be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover
whom He did Foreordain,
them He also Called:
and whom He Called,
them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified,
them He also Glorified.

So first we have the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God...
Then we have the FORE-ORDAINING of God...
Then we have the CALLING of God (unto repentance)...
Then we have the JUSTIFICATION (Baptism) of those Called by God...
And finally the GLORIFICATION (full Sanctification) by God of those JUSTIFIED (in Baptism into Christ)

So you see, Justification by God is NOT the beginning of Salvation as you mistakenly believe...
It is mid-way between the CALL of God and the GLORIFICATION by God of a penitent...

The CALL comes first: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand!"
To those responsive to this call, who hear and obey this call to obedience in repentance,
Baptism is given into Christ by Christ through the Hands of His Servants...
One is at this point a new-born babe IN the Kingdom of Heaven which is the Body of Christ...
Upon becoming an ADULT by growing in the Faith of Christ in OBEDIENCE to God...
THEN one is Glorified by God in the doing of the Holy Works of God...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Here is a new tack:

Do we need to resist sin in order to be saved?

Or are we saved and only then do we resist sin?

Does God save unrepentant sinners?

Why or why not, from Scripture please...

Menno: Whatcha think?


Arsenios

In other words, does God save us without our help or do we have to help ourselves?

There were several questions there. I don't think so simple a response is adequate.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

We ask, and God Gives...

It is a Gift sought for and received...

Arsenios

A gift "sought for" is not a gift given. We are not petulant children demanding ("asking" as you put it), but it is given freely.
Last Christmas I did not expect a tin of cookies from my landlord, but it was outside the door anyway. I also did not expect God to find me sitting alone at a kitchen table in Detroit in 2001 wondering what the heck happened to my life, but he showed up at the door anyway.

 

[Andrew]

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:2-7

 

[Arsenios]

James is NOT stating that faith in Christ alone doesn't save..... he is stating that SAYING that one has faith when their life proves otherwise is not saving. The error made by some Catholics (and perhaps by you) is that if two things are associated (even joined and inseparated) ERGO they have the same purpose, function and result. The error comes when trying to twist what James states to, "We are justified by faith in Christ's work PLUS ALSO faith in our own works." That's not what James said. Or do I need to take you to grammar school?

OK - Grammar School it is:

blepeiv oti h pistiv
You are seeing that the faith (of him)

sunhrgei
is synergizing together with

toiv ergoiv autou
the works of him

kai
AND...

ek twn ergwn
out of these works

h pistiv
The faith (of him)

eteleiwyh
was perfected

It is absolutely grammatically clear that his works perfected his faith...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

@Arsenios ;



1. Nothing Paul writes affirms that Jesus is only the PART Savior (self being PART Savior - the part that actually determines if we are saved or not). NOTHING Paul writes affirms the heresy of Pelagianism.



2. You demand to place the OBEDIENCE of dead self, obedience to the Law by the dead atheist BEFORE justification (narrow). Your position is it all hinges on dead man's obedience and good works (all a reward for that) BEFORE the Holy Spirit comes to him, BEFORE he has faith, BEFORE he has spiritual life, that God justly rewards the obedience and good works of the dead man with justification. Read the following:

1 Corinthians 2:14, "the one without the Holy Spirit does not accept the things of the Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:3, "No one is capable of saying 'Jesus is Lord' without the Holy Spirit."

Hebrews 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."

Ephesians 2:1 "You were dead in sin."

Ephesians 2:8, "for by grace you have been saved because of faith and this is not your own doing but is the gift of God."

Creed: "The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life"


And YET - you claim that people.... without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without spiritual life.... BEFORE these things come..... VOID of these things..... does something pleasing to God (obedience... works.... requesting.... etc., etc.) all without faith, without the Holy Spirit. And you have them void of life, the Holy Spirit and faith nonetheeless professing Jesus as Lord. Evidently, a lot of verses are wrong.... and so is the ancient Creed.

How is it that one without faith nonetheless does a work that is pleasing to God (which God says is "impossible")? How does one without faith and the Holy Spirit nonetheless proclaim Jesus is Lord (which God says is he "cannot")?




Again, I think there is MYSTERY here... Protestants don't claim to even begin to understand the dynamics here or HOW God performs the miracle of life (and we do consider justification as a DIVINE miracle), but what you are claiming is flately stated to be impossible, it "cannot" be the case. And..... just as troubling..... if it all hinges on the dead one doing what the Bible expressly states he cannot do, what is impossible for him to do.... then is Jesus the Savior? If we are justified, as you claim, because we FIRST earned it by our obedience, by the good works the dead one does, then Galatians 2:16 and Galatians 2:21 are also not true....



You make another absurd assumption, too: That if dead people are called to something ERGO they have the full ability to achieve it - NO Holy Spirit is needed, NO faith is needed, NO spiritual life is needed (because again, you insist that justification is dependent on one FIRST heeding the will of God - justification is dependent on FIRST fully obeying the Call of God. Well... then there would be no need for Jesus, would there? All God would need to do is command "Be yourselves saved" (could have saved himself a lot of trouble).... All would be fully able to be perfect even as God is perfect and to love all has Christ loved because all can respond to God's calls WITHOUT God doing a thing except issuing the command. Your assumption is absurd. Yes, God calls all the repentance and faith - but it is illogical (and unbiblical) to insist ERGO any one can obey - no need for God at all. At least Pelagius and the Jews and the Muslims give SOME role for God! You just have PURE LAW and dead man all on his own. Your insistence that FIRST comes our good works, our obedience THEN God rewards that with life, faith, and the Holy Spirit is absurd. You are imposing an absurd assumption into some verses.... God said to choose life, too: does that mean I asked for life and God gave it to me as a reward 9 months before I was born? Come on...

It is absolutely grammatically clear that his works perfected his faith...

So your grammar book says that "perfect" means "to cause, to bring about?" That the word means, "is the object of salvation?"

Of course our works strengthen our faith.... did you listen to the video in post 55? No where has anyone brought up what a CHRISTIAN might do to strengthen his faith (you keep changing topics.... it's impossible to keep up.... you seem to never address the issues but just change the subject). I'm disagreeing that we are justified as a result of our being obedient to the Law, our good works before justification. I reject that James is saying, "Faith in Christ as the Savior saves no one because you also have to supply your own good works." I'm saying James is ASSOCIATING our works for others with Christ's works for us (see post #55) but he is NOT denying JEsus as the Savior, he is not even supporing the heresy of Pelagianism.... James is talking about what IS faith rather than two different saving OBJECTS of that faith - Christ and self.






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