Can faith save him?

[Josiah]

Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is ONE, inseparable, united teaching for Justification (narrow). And yes, it is solidly biblical.

In a sense, any part of this is incorrect is stripped of the others, so some will make a point that "Sola Fide" is incorrect; it is not our FAITH that is the reason for our justification (making Jesus irrelevant), but the divine gift of faith IS what in a sense accesses justification personally - and nothing else does (so the "sola" applies).

Anytime that Grace is turned into nothing more than enabling SELF to be the savior of self.... any time Christ is turned into nothing more than a HELPER or OFFERER - then there is no justification, the Christian Gospel is destroyed and Christianity abandoned. And when Sola Fide is removed, we end up with universal justification (all saved) or universal damnation (all damned) - both unbiblical.

True... faith in Christ's works for us is accompanied by OUR works toward others ("faith without works is dead") but this does not mean the two different works have the same function.

 

[atpollard]

Where in holy scripture is it ever said that a man is saved by faith alone?

[Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[Jhn 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Rom 10:5-13 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[MoreCoffee]

[Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[Jhn 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Rom 10:5-13 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Did you notice that not one of those passages says "faith alone"?

 

[Josiah]

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.

Jesus is the Savior is the centerpiece, the keystone of Christianity: remove it, and the whole thing crashes, and we end up with the falsehood of other religions: self slowly saves self with divine help - no need for a Savior, just enabling.

Satan works overtime to make this very simple, very beautiful Gospel as muddy, as complex, as confusing, as uncertain as possible.... all to make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible.... all to destroy the Gospel and thus Christianity.... all to try to get us to look in the mirror rather than to the Cross. And sadly, the devil at times succeeds.


Again, no one denies the the Christian (the Justified one, the one with the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit) is called to great things - moral perfection, divine love, etc...... no one denies that the Christian is to do good works toward others..... no one has ever said that good works are bad or irrelevant (as some Catholics and Mormons falsely accuse of others), the issue is whether OUR works is the cause of salvation so that self is the savior of self - Jesus thus not the Savior (as one of my Catholic teachers said, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it possible for all to be saved"). When Jesus is made merely a HELPER or OFFERER or DOOR OPENER then He is not the Savior - and honestly would require He not be called something it is believed He is not. No one denies that faith in Christ's works is accompanied by our works for others, what some deny is that THEREFORE our works are what actually saves us and Jesus is thus not the Savior; what some deny is that therefore BOTH works have the same function, purpose, result. Just because two things are joined and associated does not mean they have identical purposes, functions and result.


In terms of narrow Justification (the attaining of spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit) we have only two choices: Looking to the mirror or to the Cross. It's not complicated. it's not rocket science. Christianity proclaims the Jesus is the Savior. Remove that....and Christianity is destroyed.





.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree that there is a correlation between good works and a living faith and being alive in Christ, and I believe that I could defend the existence of a relationship from scripture. However, your statement goes far beyond any simple relationship (those with a living faith do good works) and claim a direct cause-effect relationship (one does good works to get a living faith).

Christians do good works because that is what God called them to do. That is what saint Paul says in Ephesians 2:10. It is also what saint James says in James 2:14-26. There's not tension between doing good works and living the life of faith. They are the same thing. As the scripture says James 2:17 RSV So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. And keep in mind that saint Paul teaches the same thing in many passages:

• Philippians 1:27-28 RSV 27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear omen to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.
• Galatians 2:20 RSV I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
• 1 Timothy 6:12 RSV Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
• Hebrews 13:7 RSV Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.

faith alone, without good works, is dead. This is not a teaching found only in James chapter two. It is the teaching of the holy scriptures from cover to cover. Faith alone cannot save anybody but faith alive in good works does save all who are saved. Even the thief on the cross and an infant saved by grace are saved by faith working in love, if not their own faith and the works that it produces then the faith of the body of Christ and the work is produces in communion with Jesus Christ. No matter how one looks at it the truth is that faith without works is dead while faith completed by good works is living and active. Faith of this kind is fidelity to God.

Can you offer scripture to support your position?
I do not think the Apostles state what you claim.

 

[Josiah]

Christians do good works because that is what God called them to do.....

Yup. That's the Protestant position (they were excommunicated for that)

Our works aren't what causes us to be Christians, it is what flows from being a Christian. Our works don't save, they reveal being saved. Our works aren't what causes us to have spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit - they are what happens when one HAS those gifts.

There's not tension between doing good works and living the life of faith. They are the same thing. As the scripture says James 2:17 RSV So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. And keep in mind that saint Paul teaches the same thing in many passages:

Correct. James is NOT saying that our works is what justifies us (thus denouncing Christ as the Savior and repudiating Christianity), he simply is noting that faith that IS faith (not just something SAID) is active, it is accompanied by OUR works toward others. He is NOT saying that OUR works are salvic whereas Jesus' was a joke - or perhaps merely a possibility-maker.

What you are conveying is EXACTLY what Luther said and stressed so much in his presentation of "Sola Fide." And he was denounced by your denomination for it, in fact your denomination split all western Christianity over what Luther said on this.

Faith alone cannot save anybody but faith alive in good works does save all who are saved.

Ah, now you are sounding less Lutheran and more Catholic, lol.....

Faith in Christ DOES save..... Jesus is NOT the irrelevant, meaningless, moot thing you imply.... His work was not worthless.... Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide IS justification (narrow). Your dismissal of Jesus here is troubling,

What IS true is THAT faith (which DOES mean Justification because Jesus IS the Savior) is not alone, "We are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone" to quote a Protestant proverb, the divine gift of faith in Christ's works MEANS we have our works toward others. Your error is to suggest that the two works - Christ's and ours - have the SAME function, purpose, result. My car has an engine and an air conditioner - you can't buy one without those TWO things - and yes, the engine empowers the A/C. but they do not have the same function. And it's wrong to say the AC causes the engine to work.


See post 24. I hold that Jesus is the Savior. I reject what I was taught by my Catholic teachers on this: "God HELPS those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you got to get yourself through it by what you do." "Technically Jesus doesn't save anyone but rather makes it possible for all to be saved." I agree with the ancient Creed: "We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ.... who for us and for our salvation...." "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of life." I reject that self saves self (with or without HELP), that Jesus is merely a possibility-maker or enabler or helper, that the Holy Spirit at most OFFERS salvation. I don't claim to know or understand all the dynamics here or how GOD gives all this, but this I know: Jesus is THE SAVIOR. And anything that undermines that.... and thus the Gospel and Christianity - I will reject. Luther was willing to die for the Gospel... so am I. And all the efforts of the devil to confuse things, entangle things, make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible, to make self the actual savior, well.... they all must be called out and rejected. And I do NOT believe that any of the Apostles or biblical penmen denied Christ as THE one and only, all-sufficient SAVIOR.




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[Arsenios]

I think I am getting this, Josiah...

So if someone says to you as they did to Paul: "You just got bit by a deadly snake and did not die, so you must be a divine person,"... Then you tell them that all you do is BELIEVE in Jesus Christ... And if they tell you: "How can I believe as you do and not be harmed by deadly snake venom?"... Your answer to them is this:

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO...
Jesus' work on the Cross will save you...
BUT ONLY IF Jesus decides to save you...

So when the person then asks:
"How will I KNOW He has saved me?"
You will not tell him to get bit by a snake...
And if you live, you are saved...

But instead you will say:
"You will believe in Him and find yourself doing His assigned works."
And you will hand him a Bible...
And suggest he attend Church Sermons and Services...

Or perhaps you will say to him:
"BECAUSE you want to believe, you are already saved!"
"So now you can begin repenting, because the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now..."
I mean, what DO you say to someone asking:

What can I DO to be Saved by Jesus Christ?
You CANNOT say: "Start obeying Christ..." can you???
You cannot have him DO ANYTHING, can you?
You cannot even tell him to BELIEVE in Christ, can you?

Can you even tell him to read the Bible???
But no, that is a work, yes?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Did you notice that not one of those passages says "faith alone"?

That's because God saves us by His gracious choice and then gives us faith to believe it.
The cause is God. The effect is faith. The effect of faith is good works.
MC, it seems you want to ignore God as the cause agent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think I am getting this, Josiah...

So if someone says to you as they did to Paul: "You just got bit by a deadly snake and did not die, so you must be a divine person,"... Then you tell them that all you do is BELIEVE in Jesus Christ... And if they tell you: "How can I believe as you do and not be harmed by deadly snake venom?"... Your answer to them is this:

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO...
Jesus' work on the Cross will save you...
BUT ONLY IF Jesus decides to save you...

So when the person then asks:
"How will I KNOW He has saved me?"
You will not tell him to get bit by a snake...
And if you live, you are saved...

But instead you will say:
"You will believe in Him and find yourself doing His assigned works."
And you will hand him a Bible...
And suggest he attend Church Sermons and Services...

Or perhaps you will say to him:
"BECAUSE you want to believe, you are already saved!"
"So now you can begin repenting, because the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now..."
I mean, what DO you say to someone asking:

What can I DO to be Saved by Jesus Christ?
You CANNOT say: "Start obeying Christ..." can you???
You cannot have him DO ANYTHING, can you?
You cannot even tell him to BELIEVE in Christ, can you?


Arsenios

I admire your use of comedic argument.

Will it work?

I also admire your optimism

 

[Josiah]

Arsenios


Your truly weird post has nothing whatsoever to do with what I (or anyone) posted.....

Correct, if one points to self as the reason for justification then they aren't pointing at Jesus, are they?

I believe that Jesus is the Savior. That there is no other name under heaven by which any are saved. I believe that no one comes to the Father except though Jesus alone. Does this offend you or do you simply disagree? Do you find that funny or just irrelevant?

Interesting you ignore everything I've actually stated on this.... and specially quote me saying things I've never said....

 

[Albion]

Did you notice that not one of those passages says "faith alone"?

The question should be: Do any of them mention something OTHER than--or IN ADDITION TO--faith? If not, then it’s faith...alone.

 

[Josiah]

[Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[Jhn 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Rom 10:5-13 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Correct.


Scripture teaches that there is ONE Savior (and His name is Jesus) - not two or three or four or five.... And not that Jesus is PART Savior (the part that is ineffectual) ....
Those who reject the "alone" "only" etc. need to indicate who ELSE is the Savior?



The devil wants to change Scripture, perhaps to this....


[Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God or one of many others, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He or one of many others loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace or a bunch of other stuff you have been saved),or with _____________, or ____________ or _______________ or ________________ or ___________________. 6 and raised us up with Him or any of the other better Saviors, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus or any of the other better Saviors, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus or any of the other better Saviors. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith or by a bunch of other stuff; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works or IS the result of your works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus or any of the other better Saviors for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


[Jhn 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him or any of the other better Saviors shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son or any of the other better Saviorsinto the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him or any of the other better Saviors . 18 "He who believes in Him or any of the other better Saviors is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God or any of the other better Saviors. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


The devil wants us to believe when God so often stresses "alone" "only" etc. God actually means "plus many others more so than Jesus." Thus their problem with "alone" in Scripture and Protestant theology.




.

 

[Josiah]

Luther on the works of CHRISTIANS, the works of FAITH ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4KX8mtTHyU



Luther and the RC denomination of his day were in full agreement that the divine gift of faith (reliance) in CHRIST'S works is joined by the works of the Christian.... That was never an issue of dispute as both "sides" stressed so much 500 years ago. Indeed, Luther stressed the relevance of OUR works toward others more than did the RC denomination.

The issue then (and now) is whether OUR works toward others is the cause, the reason, for the coming of spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit (justification, narrow). Luther argued that because of God's mercy and love, because of CHRIST'S salvic work, God gives to the dead unbeliever life ("We believe the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life"), faith ("the free gift of God"... "NO ONE can even say with meaning JEsus is Lord") and the Holy Spirit. As a result of this change, no longer DEAD but alive, no longer void of faith but with faith, no longer void of the Holy Spirit but WITH the Spirit's direction and power, this faith in Christ's works for us leads to our works for others. These works - of Christ and of us - are connected, associated, even inseparable but they do not have the same function - one results in our justification, the other in a more Christ-like life... and Luther said, OUR works for others is not what brings about the coming of God's mercy, God's git of faith, God's gift of the Holy Spirit meaning that we accomplish salvation by what we do rather than anything in Jesus, but rather OUR love flows from His love, OUR righteousness from HIs, OUR works from His. For this, he was excommunicated. The RCC chose to split Western Christianity over this very point.

Luther stressed the relevance of the works of the Christian more than the RCC did... the harsh dispute the RCC had with Luther is that he argued that OUR works are not the cause of justification but the fruit of it. Luther insisted we do not save ourselves but that Jesus does this. That we do not give spiritual life to ourselves, the Holy Spirit gives it. Luther stressed that it is "mystery" exactly how God accomplishes all this BUT that He alone does it (one of the lesser repeated "solas" of the Reformation is Soli Deo Gloria - God ALONE accomplishes all this). The RCC found Luther's views horrific.


.

 

[Arsenios]

Scripture teaches that there is ONE Savior (and His name is Jesus)...

[Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

So then what does the proximity in space and time of the Kingdom of Heaven...
have to do with obedience to the command to be repenting?

Mat 3:2 And saying,
"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mar 1:15 And saying,
"The time is fulfilled, and
the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the Gospel."

Why do these words of John the Baptizer of Christ
and of Jesus Christ Himself...
begin the Gospel Books of Christ?

Do they have anything to do with Salvation do you think?
Does Salvation have anything to do with the Kingdom of Heaven?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

So then what does the proximity in space and time of the Kingdom of Heaven...
have to do with obedience to the command to be repenting?

Mat_3:2 And saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mar_1:15 And saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the Gospel."

Why do these words of John the Baptizer of Christ
and of Jesus Christ Himself...
begin the Gospel Books of Christ?

Do they have anything to do with Salvation do you think?


Arsenios

Repent is important. The problem comes when...


1. This is mandated as a prerequisite for the coming to spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. That the "free gift of God" is not free or a gift or of God at all, but the accomplishment of the DEAD atheistic enemy of God FIRST (without the Holy Spirit, without spiritual life, without any awareness or concern for the Law or anything from God) FIRST realizing that self has violated the wise wisdom and loving heart of God (which they deny exists).


2. When a "call" is confused with the ability to fulfill it. The Bible also says, "You must be perfect even as God is perfect." The Law says much. But I disagree that BECAUSE the Law exists, ERGO it must be possible for dead, fallen, atheistic, enemies of God can fulfill it. If that presumption is true, then Jesus was unnecessary (as the Bible itself says), if we could do as God demands, then Jesus is a joke, the Christian Gospel is wrong and Christianity is false. If that presumption is correct, then all the other religions of the world are true - we don't need any Savior, we just need an opportunity and some divine help and eventually we'll accomplish it. Jesus called DEAD Lazarus out of the tomb, but I disagree that THEREFORE the miracle is not that JESUS gave him life but that dead Lazarus nonetheless "heard" the call and nonetheless had the ability to give himself life.


3. When salvation has nothing to do with Jesus, as in nearly all of your posts where He is not so much as mentioned. IMO, salvation is not a cross-less, Christ-less, mercy-less religion of dead self saving self, obediently giving self spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit - self walking self into Heaven (with a passive Jesus doing nothing but demanding WE be the savior). I lift high the Cross, not myself. I rely on mercy, not ego.


Does self have anything to do with justification? Only in that self receives it. This is why Jesus is the Savior.




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[MoreCoffee]

Romans 3:21-31 21 But now, without the law, the justice of God, to which the law and the prophets have testified, has been made manifest. 22 And the justice of God, though the faith of Jesus Christ, is in all those and over all those who believe in him. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and all are in need of the glory of God. 24 We have been made righteous freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God has offered as an expiation, through faith in his blood, to reveal his righteousness for the remission of the former offences, 26 and by the forbearance of God, to reveal his righteousness in this time, so that he himself might be both the Righteous One and the One who makes righteous anyone who is of the faith of Jesus Christ. 27 So then, where is your self-exaltation? It is excluded. Through what law? That of works? No, but rather through the law of faith. 28 For we judge a man to be made righteous by faith, without the works of the law. 29 Is God of the Jews only and not also of the Gentiles? On the contrary, of the Gentiles also. 30 For One is the God who makes righteous circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Are we then destroying the law through faith? Let it not be so! Instead, we are making the law stand.

Faith doesn't abrogate good works, it does not mean righteousness is irrelevant. Faith is fidelity to God and it makes righteous all who walk in it. Walking in the faith of Jesus Christ is following Him in His obedience to God and being righteous as he is righteous. Faith is no excuse for discounting good works nor for ignoring them. Fidelity works in love to do the good works that God foreordained for his people to be their way of life.

 

[Josiah]

Romans 3:21-31 But now, without the law, the justice of God, to which the law and the prophets have testified, has been made manifest. And the justice of God, though the faith of Jesus Christ, is in all those and over all those who believe in him. For there is no distinction. For all have sinned and all are in need of the glory of God. We have been made righteous freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God has offered as an expiation, through faith in his blood, to reveal his righteousness for the remission of the former offences, and by the forbearance of God, to reveal his righteousness in this time, so that he himself might be both the Righteous One and the One who makes righteous anyone who is of the faith of Jesus Christ. So then, where is your self-exaltation? It is excluded. Through what law? That of works? No, but rather through the law of faith. For we judge a man to be made righteous by faith, without the works of the law.]Is God of the Jews only and not also of the Gentiles? On the contrary, of the Gentiles also. For One is the God who makes righteous circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith Are we then destroying the law through faith? Let it not be so! Instead, we are making the law stand.



Faith doesn't abrogate good works, it does not mean righteousness is irrelevant.

See post # 33.

READ what you quoted from Scripture.

Faith in SELF, the works of SELF to justify/save self... relying on the fulfillment of the Law by SELF is not faith in Christ. It is not relying upon God's mercy, upon Jesus Christ to save, upon what Christ has done - and thus such faith in self and how self fulfills the Law does nothing except create a little Pharisee.

Faith that IS in Christ saves... and reveals itself in OUR works..... Faith in Christ's works for us is inseparable from OUR works for others. But OUR works toward others (keeping the Law) does not justify (change our relationship by granting to us the free, divine gifts of life, faith and the Holy Spirit), does not give the dead one spiritual life (meaning the Holy Spirit doesn't), does not save anyone (meaning Jesus doesn't), does not give the Holy Spirit. OUR works that flow from the gift of faith in Christ matters - but doesn't bring out faith in Christ, spiritual life, the Holy Spirit.


Again, no one on the planet has ever disagreed with the importance of OUR works toward others.... no one has disagreed that faith in Christ's works is accompanied by our works for others (see post #33, watch the video - I know your Catholic teachers may have told you something contrary, but read the verbatim words of Luther). That has never been the dispute, THAT has been an issue of agreement (500 years ago and now). The dispute is whether saving faith is in Christ or in self.... whether we receive the free gifts, the inheritance, of justification (narrow) because of what Jesus did (Jesus thus being the Savior) or what WE do (self thus being the Savior). Are we "siding" with Pelagius or the Council of Orange?





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[Arsenios]

A story comes down from the Church in Constantinople, about a brigand who instilled great fear in the populations around Constantinople, so vicious and inhumane were his crimes, and unrepentantly ongoing... Indeed, the Emperor sent troops to capture him and bring him in for trial and execution, but they were not successful... So the Emperor sent out a man to him with the Emperor's written promise that IF that man should turn himself in to the Emperor, not only would no harm be done to him, but that he would not even be detained...

And the brigand came in and turned himself in to the Emperor, and was pleasantly surprised to find that the Emperor actually kept his [Christian] word... And shortly after this, he became gravely ill and saw his end coming, and he began to weep bitterly for his crimes and sins, soaking his towel with his tears, and he died...

And the physician who had been treating him saw the following in a dream:

The Brigand was surrounded by demonic hordes, each one having a crime and a sin on a piece of paper, and a large scale was lowered before him, and the countless thousands of true accusations were piled high on the side of the scale that brought his condemnation... And there were his two Angels there, at a loss as to what they could offer that might even begin to counterbalance such monstrous weight of evils against their unrepentant Brigand... The end was at hand...

Then one of the Angels reached out and brought forth the towel soaked in tears, and the weight of those tears outweighed the grievous weight of the indictment of all those demonic hordes bearing witness...

Did his faith save him?

Or his tears?

Or?

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Did his faith save him?

It looks like the answer has to be "yes", but I notice that the Brigand is described in the story as both repentant and as unrepentant, so I don't know what to make of that.

 

[Lamb]

A story comes down from the Church in Constantinople, about a brigand who instilled great fear in the populations around Constantinople, so vicious and inhumane were his crimes, and unrepentantly ongoing... Indeed, the Emperor sent troops to capture him and bring him in for trial and execution, but they were not successful... So the Emperor sent out a man to him with the Emperor's written promise that IF that man should turn himself in to the Emperor, not only would no harm be done to him, but that he would not even be detained...

And the brigand came in and turned himself in to the Emperor, and was pleasantly surprised to find that the Emperor actually kept his [Christian] word... And shortly after this, he became gravely ill and saw his end coming, and he began to weep bitterly for his crimes and sins, soaking his towel with his tears, and he died...

And the physician who had been treating him saw the following in a dream:

The Brigand was surrounded by demonic hordes, each one having a crime and a sin on a piece of paper, and a large scale was lowered before him, and the countless thousands of true accusations were piled high on the side of the scale that brought his condemnation... And there were his two Angels there, at a loss as to what they could offer that might even begin to counterbalance such monstrous weight of evils against their unrepentant Brigand... The end was at hand...

Then one of the Angels reached out and brought forth the towel soaked in tears, and the weight of those tears outweighed the grievous weight of the indictment of all those demonic hordes bearing witness...

Did his faith save him?

Or his tears?

Or?

Arsenios

Did his faith save him? Faith in what? The story doesn't say. If it's not in Jesus and the forgiveness of sins that He died for at the cross then it's not saving faith, is it?