Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

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Albion

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“Nothing” is too little and “everything” is too much. There are legitimate differences between what a Lutheran and Mennonite (or Baptist) believe “baptism” accomplishes, but this topic is tending towards extremes.

One could ask what partaking the “bo”y and blood” (bread and wine) accomplishes. We would both agree that the person was saved both before and after the sacrament. They had faith both before and after the sacrament. They had the Holy Spirit both before and after the sacrament. Their sins were forgiven both before and after the sacrament. Yet neither a Lutheran, Mennonite or Baptist would argue that the Church gathering together to take the “body and blood” was “NOTHING”, that it was pointless and serves no purpose. We might disagree about the details of exactly what it is and what it does accomplish, but we agree that it is not “nothing”.
The general drift of your post seems reasonable enough, but surely it can be understood that if all that Communion and Baptism do is about the same as lighting a candle in church, that their value is the next thing to nothing.

Oh yes, it might make the doer feel closer to God or give him some other emotional lift, but so does watching a nice sunset. Some people think they ”have to” do them, so that observing them then is nothing other than a ritualistic, legalistic, duty to be discharged.

That is all that the sacraments mean to those people who cannot even bring themselves to call them ”sacraments,” so little do they think of them.





.
 
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Josiah

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Just provide scripture

I did. Read the opening post.

You have yet to post any Scriptures or quotes from anyone (even non-Christians) from before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century that support the view that (water) Baptism is "worthless" (to quote you), "does nothing" (again, quoting you), is inert and ineffectual, and is only, "an outward symbol of a previous inner personal accomplishment" (typical Baptist teaching). Try quoting Scriptures that support your view (give it a try!) - THEN we can compare out lists of Scriptures and quotes. And see which seems to have stronger support. Give it a try!
 

MennoSota

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I did. Read the opening post.

You have yet to post any Scriptures or quotes from anyone (even non-Christians) from before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century that support the view that (water) Baptism is "worthless" (to quote you), "does nothing" (again, quoting you), is inert and ineffectual, and is only, "an outward symbol of a previous inner personal accomplishment" (typical Baptist teaching). Try quoting Scriptures that support your view (give it a try!) - THEN we can compare out lists of Scriptures and quotes. And see which seems to have stronger support. Give it a try!
You ignored:
...interpret it in light of the topic, then stop typing.
 

Josiah

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You ignored:
...interpret it in light of the topic

You ignored, I have no need to spin anything. The words the Holy Spirit put on the page are what they are. YOU may have a need to spin them round and round, until you make them MEAN the opposite of what they do, but I have no such need. "No spin zone" here; I reject your need to make verses and Christians MEAN something very different than what they say.


Try QUOTING - verbatim - then stop typing. Let God be God. Let God be soverign. Let Scripture be the rule. Stop your high speed, constant spin cycle. But of course, you don't even do that! You have yet to provide one Scripture that supports your position, yet to provide even one person (even a non-Christian) prior to that radically synergistic Anbaptist who invented your dogma that shares your perspective.

Try just quoting GOD. Then stop. Just as I did. In a "no spin zone." No Denominational Tradition trumping what God says, no spin. Let's then compare our lists of quotes from God. Unless you have nothing from God to quote....
 

MennoSota

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You ignored, I have no need to spin anything. The words the Holy Spirit put on the page are what they are. YOU may have a need to spin them round and round, until you make them MEAN the opposite of what they do, but I have no such need. "No spin zone" here; I reject your need to make verses and Christians MEAN something very different than what they say.


Try QUOTING - verbatim - then stop typing. Let God be God. Let God be soverign. Let Scripture be the rule. Stop your high speed, constant spin cycle. But of course, you don't even do that! You have yet to provide one Scripture that supports your position, yet to provide even one person (even a non-Christian) prior to that radically synergistic Anbaptist who invented your dogma that shares your perspective.

Try just quoting GOD. Then stop. Just as I did. In a "no spin zone." No Denominational Tradition trumping what God says, no spin. Let's then compare our lists of quotes from God. Unless you have nothing from God to quote....
...interpret it in light of the topic
 

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This back and forth nonsense is not productive and just ads more pages of garbage to the site. We need more quality in these posts please and not just banter!
 

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Provide scripture. Interpret scripture to show your POV has legitimacy.
Jibber jabber about anything else is useless.
 

atpollard

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The general drift of your post seems reasonable enough, but surely it can be understood that if all that Communion and Baptism do is about the same as lighting a candle in church, that their value is the next thing to nothing.

Oh yes, it might make the doer feel closer to God or give him some other emotional lift, but so does watching a nice sunset. Some people think they ”have to” do them, so that observing them then is nothing other than a ritualistic, legalistic, duty to be discharged.

That is all that the sacraments mean to those people who cannot even bring themselves to call them ”sacraments,” so little do they think of them.
.
Then what does communion actually DO?
(And I am still waiting for that point to the post where you explained already what baptism actually accomplishes.)

It is easy to dismiss what I believe as next to nothing, but it hardly impresses when you cannot articulate what this wonderful ‘something’ is that YOU believe that they accomplish.
 

Albion

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Then what does communion actually DO?
(And I am still waiting for that point to the post where you explained already what baptism actually accomplishes.)

It is easy to dismiss what I believe as next to nothing, but it hardly impresses when you cannot articulate what this wonderful ‘something’ is that YOU believe that they accomplish.

Well, I would think that you might wait for an answer before coming back with the sneers. And if you do not remember the explanations that have been given at different times in the past by more than one of us, that shortcoming isn't on us, but on you.

Now, as for my answer...

This is meant to take account of the view of all or at least the major denominations which hold the Lords Supper in the highest regard. Particular ones might modify or reword it somewhat. Reception either delivers from sin or reassures the communicant of the forgiveness of his sins, imparts grace, creates a bond with Christ through the reception of his very essence (in some sense) into our bodies, testifies to the unity of the members of Christs church, and proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.



.
 
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atpollard

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This is meant to take account of the view of all or at least the major denominations which hold the Lords Supper in the highest regard. Particular ones might modify or reword it somewhat. Reception either delivers from sin or reassures the communicant of the forgiveness of his sins, imparts grace, creates a bond with Christ through the reception of his very essence (in some sense) into our bodies, testifies to the unity of the members of Christs church, and proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.
Sometimes I wonder if you think about what the words you post really mean.

If ‘communion’ delivers from sin, then you are claiming that you were undelivered from sin prior to taking communion.
That would apply to any child too young to take communion.

So does Baptism “deliver from sin”? How many times is a person delivered from sin?

“Reassures the congregant of the forgiveness of his sins” sounds almost exactly like what you described as being “the next thing to nothing” when a Baptist makes that claim.

Please explain “imparts Grace”. Did you have “Grace” before the weekly communion? If so, then what is different after communion? Does the amount of Grace fluctuate, so communion refills your Grace tank? It feels like ‘Christian-speak” words with no real meaning.

Did you have this “bond with Christ” before the weekly communion? Is the bond somehow different after the weekly communion? Again, does the bond fluctuate in strength and need to be refilled?

“Testifies to the unity of the members of Christ’s Church” also sounds almost exactly like what you described as being “the next thing to nothing” when a Baptist makes that claim.

“proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.” IS EXACTLY like what you described as being “the next thing to nothing” when a Baptist makes that claim.

The Baptist Response:
The Baptists believe that communion “Reassures the congregant of the forgiveness of his sins”, “testifies to the unity of the members of Christ’s Church” and “proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.” A Baptist would claim that they were already “delivered from sin”, God had already “imparted Grace”, and they were already inseparably “bound with Christ” through His death on the cross and resurrection, our gift of faith from God, belief in His Son and confession of our sins, and baptism with the Holy Spirit as a surety that guarantees our inheritance. We have no need to look to communion to provide what God has already provided.
 

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Well, I would think that you might wait for an answer before coming back with the sneers. And if you do not remember the explanations that have been given at different times in the past by more than one of us, that shortcoming isn't on us, but on you.

Now, as for my answer...

This is meant to take account of the view of all or at least the major denominations which hold the Lords Supper in the highest regard. Particular ones might modify or reword it somewhat. Reception either delivers from sin or reassures the communicant of the forgiveness of his sins, imparts grace, creates a bond with Christ through the reception of his very essence (in some sense) into our bodies, testifies to the unity of the members of Christs church, and proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.



.

What scripture would speak to each possibility you bring up?
One might agree if there is specific scripture that supports the different assertions.
Let us go through each assertion.
1) delivers from sin
2) reassures the communicant of the forgiveness of his sins,
3) imparts grace,
4) creates a bond with Christ through the reception of his very essence (in some sense) into our bodies,
5) testifies to the unity of the members of Christs church,
6) proclaims his sacrifice for the sins of mankind until his coming again.

Of these six assertions, what scripture secures them as a reality?
 

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Provide scripture. Interpret scripture to show your POV has legitimacy.
Jibber jabber about anything else is useless.

That's EXACTLY what you've been doing, jibber jabber. So please stop. You turn many threads into similar ones where it's all the same back and forth complaining or just plain bickering. That makes this site low quality.
 

MennoSota

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That's EXACTLY what you've been doing, jibber jabber. So please stop. You turn many threads into similar ones where it's all the same back and forth complaining or just plain bickering. That makes this site low quality.
Why do people refuse to actually talk about the scripture passage and explain it?
Do people think that just writing down a verse location makes their claim legitimate?
Here, I claim Hezekiah 10:15 proves my point.
Now I am unquestionably correct because I wrote down a verse reference. Better yet, let me share 12 verse references without explaining them and how they make my case. If I have more unexplained references it makes my case rock solid.
And...if, God forbid, someone calls me out to explain what each verse says and how it proves my point...well...I'll just hem and haw and avoid doing that while telling the person who calls for it that it's just not my responsibility. I can just cite references without explanation because my position is correct and that is final.
So, we get nowhere because the reality is that the Bible is the secondary source behind church tradition. Church tradition dictates belief and dictates an unquestioning loyalty without checking the verses cited by the church.
Plus... exegesis isn't my thing anyway so I will hem and haw and avoid it.
 

Albion

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Sometimes I wonder if you think about what the words you post really mean.

I certainly do. But that doesn't mean you will understand what is being told to you. I indicated that my reply was broadly-based so as to account for the views of the whole range of churches/denominations that believe in the efficacy of the sacraments. I was not asked to explain my own beliefs or those of my church only.

Beyond that, I took some care not to load up my reply with denominational jargon or theological terminology.

That said, you have presented me now with a whole host of questions that, IMO, deserve to be treated one at a time. Proceed if you care to.


.
 
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Arsenios

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Can... the baptized one become dis-joined,
have the union removed
so that baptism becomes null and void
because their own willful rejection
is more powerful
than the hypostatic union...?

That Union IS the New Creation...
AND...
It affirms human sovereignty in this life...
Because God is Sovereign...

So what happens is increased responsibility...
To whom much is given, much is expected...
God will come again to judge the Living and the dead...
There will be two standards of Judgement...

Paul wrote of it in Hebrews (I think it was)
Saying something like: "And how much greater...
The condemnation will be for us...
IF we forsake what we have been given..."

So no, the new creation cannot undo its Baptism...
But if the dog returns to eat its own vomit...
If a man bags the whole enterprise and returns to his sins...
It will be far worse for him than for one not Baptized into Christ...

Which is why I wrote to you a long time ago...
That I would not be surprised to see you...
Far ahead of me in the line into heaven...
If I even find myself in that line...

Because the sinfulness of my unBaptized life...
Was not held against me so much...
Until I was finally Baptized into Christ...
And now will be judged according to my sloth...

As I recall, you took my words as a compliment...
I took them as my own self-rebuke...
God Bless you my brother...
The times are short...

The hypostatic union does not coerce virtue...
It does raise its standards...
The Living are those Baptized into Christ BY Christ...
The dead are those NOT so Baptized into Christ...


Arsenios
 
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Josiah

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Notes:


1. For years, a couple of active posters who embrace the Anabaptist dogmas on Baptism, have been chanting that Baptism does nothing and rebuking the posters who disagree. We've addressed that in the threads - ALWAYS evaded - so I thought I'd upload an entire thread specific to that topic.


2. I took care with the opening post; to keep it honest and "clean" and clearly directed to the issue (which of course IS central to whole identity of Anabaptist/Baptists). The issue is the disagreement: Does Scripture (and Christianity) associate Baptism with divine spiritual blessings (as traditional, orthodox, ecumenical Christianity affirm) or NOT (as is a foundational, defining dogma of Anabaptist/Baptists - and those that agree with them on this).


3. As completely expected, no Anabaptist/Baptist (or those who share this pov) engaged in the thread. No one offered Scriptures to support their new dogma and their condemnation of 1500+ years of Christianity. Just evasions, attempts to change the subject, the synergistic apologetic that we must DO stuff before God ceases to be impotent to bless, and constant parroting of the Anabaptist claim (with nothing to substantiate it) as if claiming it often enough makes it true.


4. Some will care.... some will note what Scripture seems to suggest and what the church universally (and passionately) believed for 1500+ years... and see some validity. Again, note the message of the OP. Some may conclude such falls a bit short of some claims (and they might have a point there). But some simply must deny. They may do so by insisting "But Scripture doesn't MEAN what it SAYS" ("But it has to be interpreted, spinned - ran thru the spin cycle so that it doesn't contradict me").


5.
Here's my singular motive. That ALL (whether they be traditional Christians on this point or Anabaptist on this point or maybe some other view) see the basis for the belief; that they understand the belief. And I hope appreciate that it DOES have a sound biblical basis and a solid, historic, ecumentical affirmation (100% before the late 16th Century). They may disagree - but at least they understand and appreciate it.



Note:

There have been several threads on Baptism, all giving Anabaptists/Baptists an opportunity to defend their new, unique dogmas and their condemnation of the traditional/orthodox/ecumenical view. SADLY, they are all like this one. One CAN find some very helpful posts amid all the evasions and games, but it does take some digging - and most just aren't willing to do that (and I can't blame them). It's too bad. But I will TRY (my best) to convey the traditional/orthodox view on this - not to or convert but to promote understanding. I'm not giving up (everyone who knows me KNOWS I don't do that, lol).



- Josiah



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Josiah

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The Opening Post....


.


Is Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?


In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual. And I welcome anyone who can/will post Scriptures that so indicate, Scriptures where the words indicate that Baptism is "a waste of time" "worthless" "does nothing' (all quotes from a poster here at CH), or the Anabaptist dogma, "only an outward SYMBOL of a personal, inner accomplishment."


IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma. But there are several, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those as a set....


Consider the following (just put your curser over the verse and the words will appear for you)


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I freely admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.



We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER Baptism.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as just an "outward ritual indicating an inward decision."



.



.
 

MennoSota

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That Union IS the New Creation...
AND...
It affirms human sovereignty in this life...
Because God is Sovereign...

So what happens is increased responsibility...
To whom much is given, much is expected...
God will come again to judge the Living and the dead...
There will be two standards of Judgement...

Paul wrote of it in Hebrews (I think it was)
Saying something like: "And how much greater...
The condemnation will be for us...
IF we forsake what we have been given..."

So no, the new creation cannot undo its Baptism...
But if the dog returns to eat its own vomit...
If a man bags the whole enterprise and returns to his sins...
It will be far worse for him than for one not Baptized into Christ...

Which is why I wrote to you a long time ago...
That I would not be surprised to see you...
Far ahead of me in the line into heaven...
If I even find myself in that line...

Because the sinfulness of my unBaptized life...
Was not held against me so much...
Until I was finally Baptized into Christ...
And now will be judged according to my sloth...

As I recall, you took my words as a compliment...
I took them as my own self-rebuke...
God Bless you my brother...
The times are short...

The hypostatic union does not coerce virtue...
It does raise its standards...
The Living are those Baptized into Christ BY Christ...
The dead are those NOT so Baptized into Christ...


Arsenios
I have no idea how your response answers my questions.

Can... the baptized one become dis-joined,

have the union removed

so that baptism becomes null and void

because their own willful rejection

is more powerful

than the hypostatic union...?
 

MennoSota

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Notes:


1. For years, a couple of active posters who embrace the Anabaptist dogmas on Baptism, have been chanting that Baptism does nothing and rebuking the posters who disagree. We've addressed that in the threads - ALWAYS evaded - so I thought I'd upload an entire thread specific to that topic.


2. I took care with the opening post; to keep it honest and "clean" and clearly directed to the issue (which of course IS central to whole identity of Anabaptist/Baptists). The issue is the disagreement: Does Scripture (and Christianity) associate Baptism with divine spiritual blessings (as traditional, orthodox, ecumenical Christianity affirm) or NOT (as is a foundational, defining dogma of Anabaptist/Baptists - and those that agree with them on this).


3. As completely expected, no Anabaptist/Baptist (or those who share this pov) engaged in the thread. No one offered Scriptures to support their new dogma and their condemnation of 1500+ years of Christianity. Just evasions, attempts to change the subject, the synergistic apologetic that we must DO stuff before God ceases to be impotent to bless, and constant parroting of the Anabaptist claim (with nothing to substantiate it) as if claiming it often enough makes it true.


4. Some will care.... some will note what Scripture seems to suggest and what the church universally (and passionately) believed for 1500+ years... and see some validity. Again, note the message of the OP. Some may conclude such falls a bit short of some claims (and they might have a point there). But some simply must deny. They may do so by insisting "But Scripture doesn't MEAN what it SAYS" ("But it has to be interpreted, spinned - ran thru the spin cycle so that it doesn't contradict me").


5.
Here's my singular motive. That ALL (whether they be traditional Christians on this point or Anabaptist on this point or maybe some other view) see the basis for the belief; that they understand the belief. And I hope appreciate that it DOES have a sound biblical basis and a solid, historic, ecumentical affirmation (100% before the late 16th Century). They may disagree - but at least they understand and appreciate it.



Note:

There have been several threads on Baptism, all giving Anabaptists/Baptists an opportunity to defend their new, unique dogmas and their condemnation of the traditional/orthodox/ecumenical view. SADLY, they are all like this one. One CAN find some very helpful posts amid all the evasions and games, but it does take some digging - and most just aren't willing to do that (and I can't blame them). It's too bad. But I will TRY (my best) to convey the traditional/orthodox view on this - not to or convert but to promote understanding. I'm not giving up (everyone who knows me KNOWS I don't do that, lol).



- Josiah



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What does scripture say. Stop with your propaganda. Share the verse. Explain the meaning and how it supports your proposition. End of story.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
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What does scripture say. Stop with your propaganda. Share the verse. Explain the meaning and how it supports your proposition. End of story.

He did in Post 1. If you have nothing to add to this thread then you should remain quiet.
 
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