Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Josiah]

Following Jesus is a decision. It is not mere acknowledgement.

I agree. But FOLLOWING Jesus is discipleship, what a CHRISTIAN should do.... CHRISTIANS follow Jesus (rarely do Atheists or Shintos). Your post is true but that's an entirely different topic for a completely different thread. Please don't hijack this thread and topic.

WHO is The SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's God's GRACE (getting what we don't deserve/achieve)


IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. YOUR intelligence and reason. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. It's my ACHIEVEMENT.



Which is it?



If that actually means you enter heaven is because of YOU (your works, your decision, you reciting the 'sinner's prayer', you being righteous, you being obedient, your this, your that.... you are good enough..... ) then you are the Savior of you. Now maybe Jesus was a good model or example or teacher..... maybe Jesus (and His mother) HELP you..... maybe Jesus is the Doorman who opens the door to those good enough to enter, those deserving to enter.... but the reason you enter heaven is because of YOU! Pat yourself on the back...... Thank yourself..... boast loudly.... you are the Savior of you! You've done God a favor.

If that actually means you enter heaven because of JESUS (His works, His love, His blessing, His gift, His grace, His mercy), because HE was righteous/holy/perfect, because HE died on the Cross for you, because HE is risen from the dead, because HE is good enough.... then Jesus is the Savior. Now maybe you should respond with love and works, maybe you should have humility and repentance, maybe you should grow to be more Christ-like in heart and life, but the reason you enter Heaven is because of Jesus, because Jesus saves, because Jesus is the Savior. God has blessed you.


Which is it?



SOME want to side with modern Pharisical Judaism or Islam or Hinduism and say "God HELPS those who help themselves, but you gotta do x,y,z." They want to say "Jesus is the Savior.... kinda, sorta.... BUT YOU gotta........" in order to enter heaven, in order to have forgiveness, in order to have mercy. But all that is just a clever way of saying Jesus does NOT save.... Jesus is NOT the Savior.... the reason I'm heaven bound is because of ME, glory be to ME, thanks be to ME, pulling out a plum and shouting "What a good boy am I!" It's insisting that we are NOT saved/justified by the grace of God (getting what we don't deserve), we are saved/justified because I did all I had to do, I jumped through all the required hoops, I jumped high enough, I am good enough, I am smart enough...... It's kind of an insult to the Cross, an insult to Christ.... but maybe good for the ego of self (all that padding of self on the back) .... until one considers the "ENOUGH." Am I good ENOUGH? Have I decided ENOUGH? Have I jumped through all the required hoops? After all, it's easy to trust Christ but if we are honest .... if we are real..... if we stop fooling ourselves... self actually makes a very unreliable Savior.

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do _________" then it's not grace.



.

Soli DEO Gloria....



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

I agree. But FOLLOWING Jesus is discipleship, what a CHRISTIAN should do.... CHRISTIANS follow Jesus (rarely do Atheists or Shintos). Your post is true but that's an entirely different topic for a completely different thread. Please don't hijack this thread and topic.

Right! Christians follow Jesus and they can ONLY do that because faith was first given to them. That's not a decision. You don't decide that your parents are going to be your parents. You don't decide that you get to be in your Father's will. You CAN decide to leave your parents or reject the will. That's a choice and people do it all the time. Christians who turn away from what God offers damn themselves. Those who remain do so because the Holy Spirit first called them, gave them faith and sustained their faith as well as grow it and it's all done by His Word.

 

[Lamb]

I would love to hear how many parents here would wait for their child to make a decision to be saved if a car was rushing at them and they would die if the parent didn't save them? What parent would not pick up their child and protect them? There are naughty children who would run back in the street and die, yes, but that's their choice.

 

[Rens]

I would love to hear how many parents here would wait for their child to make a decision to be saved if a car was rushing at them and they would die if the parent didn't save them? What parent would not pick up their child and protect them? There are naughty children who would run back in the street and die, yes, but that's their choice.

So choosing bad is a choice but choosing to listen is not a choice? Choose this day who you will obey, curse and blessing. If you don't choose for the devil it means you choose for God.

 

[Rens]

Right! Christians follow Jesus and they can ONLY do that because faith was first given to them. That's not a decision. You don't decide that your parents are going to be your parents. You don't decide that you get to be in your Father's will. You CAN decide to leave your parents or reject the will. That's a choice and people do it all the time. Christians who turn away from what God offers damn themselves. Those who remain do so because the Holy Spirit first called them, gave them faith and sustained their faith as well as grow it and it's all done by His Word.

Faith comes by hearing. It must be given to you yes otherwise you can't come to Him, but it is still a choice.

 

[Lamb]

So choosing bad is a choice but choosing to listen is not a choice? Choose this day who you will obey, curse and blessing. If you don't choose for the devil it means you choose for God.

If the rain is falling on your head and you finally notice that it's there...is that a choice? Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins. You can't believe in that without first receiving faith from the Holy Spirit by the word in order to trust. That isn't a choice. But you can turn away. That's a choice.

 

[Lamb]

Faith comes by hearing. It must be given to you yes otherwise you can't come to Him, but it is still a choice.

You are saved by grace through faith. That faith didn't come from you. It wasn't your choice to receive it. It opened your eyes to the Savior.

 

[Josiah]

See post 29

 

[Brighten04]

You are saved by grace through faith. That faith didn't come from you. It wasn't your choice to receive it. It opened your eyes to the Savior.

Yes! Yes! Yes! But, even though you see the savior, you still have to decide to receive Him. And Lam,dear sister, you never answered my question. How does one become a Christian in your denomination.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree. But FOLLOWING Jesus is discipleship, what a CHRISTIAN should do.... CHRISTIANS follow Jesus (rarely do Atheists or Shintos). Your post is true but that's an entirely different topic for a completely different thread. Please don't hijack this thread and topic.
...
- Josiah

Following Jesus is being a Christian.

Matthew 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." - the beginning of the apostle's journey.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." - a call to conversion.

Matthew 9:9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 10:38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." - a call to conversion.

John 1:43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. And he found Philip and said to him, "Follow me."

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; - a call to conversion.

John 12:26 If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him. - a call to conversion.

========================================================================================================================
John 13:36 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus answered, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now; but you shall follow afterward."

John 21:19 (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, "Follow me."

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"

 

[Lamb]

God called out, Let there be light. And there was light.

Jesus said, Follow me. And they immediately left the nets and followed him.

Did Jesus ask? Or did He say Follow me. I don't see a question at the end of any of those. It's always the Holy Spirit who gives us faith so we can turn to God and acknowledge Him as our Savior.

Following Jesus is being a Christian.

Matthew 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." - the beginning of the apostle's journey.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." - a call to conversion.

Matthew 9:9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 10:38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. - a call to conversion.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." - a call to conversion.

John 1:43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. And he found Philip and said to him, "Follow me."

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; - a call to conversion.

John 12:26 If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him. - a call to conversion.

========================================================================================================================
John 13:36 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus answered, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now; but you shall follow afterward."

John 21:19 (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, "Follow me."

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"

 

[Lamb]

Yes! Yes! Yes! But, even though you see the savior, you still have to decide to receive Him. And Lam,dear sister, you never answered my question. How does one become a Christian in your denomination.

You don't have to decide to receive Him. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives faith and we believe because of that faith given. That's receiving. We don't decide to receive at all. Free gifts are received because the giver places them in your hands. That's what God does. He GIVES to us and actually places it upon us.

We become Christians when the Holy Spirit uses God's word of the good news (the Gospel) to give us faith in the Savior who died for the forgiveness of our sins. God has placed His word in scripture and in baptism (word and water).

Man's response is confession of faith...faith he already has. It (the confession) isn't what saves. The Savior saves. I'll always point to Jesus on this. Our confession like Peter's is a realization of our Redeemer. We can only realize and see Him because the Holy Spirit enables us by the word.

 

[Tigger]

John 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

Jesus tells Lazarus to "come out" and he did even though he was dead. Did Lazarus have to decide to resurrect first?

 

[MoreCoffee]

John 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

Jesus tells Lazarus to "come out" and he did even though he was dead. Did Lazarus have to decide to resurrect first?

Do you think that the story of Lazarus is about Christian salvation?

 

[Josiah]

Do you think that the story of Lazarus is about Christian salvation?

The sub discussion is whether we are the Lord of God so that God has to have our permission to bless us.... It's in response to a point that God requires our approving will. I think several (including Tigger, Lamm and myself) have disagreed with that. Indeed, I posted that IMO, God is actually the Lord of us.

 

[Josiah]

Following Jesus is a decision.

I agree. But FOLLOWING Jesus is discipleship, what a CHRISTIAN should do.... CHRISTIANS follow Jesus (rarely do Atheists or Shintos).

Your post is true but that's an entirely different topic for a completely different thread. Please don't hijack this thread and topic.


.

Following Jesus is being a Christian.

Agreed, but this thread is not about what CHRISTIANS should or should not do AS PEOPLE OF FAITH, SAVED, JUSTIFIED .... as those already CHRISTIANS. This thread is about becoming a Christian, not what should or should not happen when one IS a Christian. Get with the topic, friend.... or if you need to entirely change the topic, start a thread on that different issue.

WHO is The SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's God's GRACE (getting what we don't deserve/achieve)


IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. YOUR intelligence and reason. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. It's my ACHIEVEMENT.



Which is it?



If that actually means you enter heaven is because of YOU (your works, your decision, you reciting the 'sinner's prayer', you being righteous, you being obedient, your this, your that.... you are good enough..... ) then you are the Savior of you. Now maybe Jesus was a good model or example or teacher..... maybe Jesus (and His mother) HELP you..... maybe Jesus is the Doorman who opens the door to those good enough to enter, those deserving to enter.... but the reason you enter heaven is because of YOU! Pat yourself on the back...... Thank yourself..... boast loudly.... you are the Savior of you! You've done God a favor.

If that actually means you enter heaven because of JESUS (His works, His love, His blessing, His gift, His grace, His mercy), because HE was righteous/holy/perfect, because HE died on the Cross for you, because HE is risen from the dead, because HE is good enough.... then Jesus is the Savior. Now maybe you should respond with love and works, maybe you should have humility and repentance, maybe you should grow to be more Christ-like in heart and life, but the reason you enter Heaven is because of Jesus, because Jesus saves, because Jesus is the Savior. God has blessed you.


Which is it?



SOME want to side with modern Pharisical Judaism or Islam or Hinduism and say "God HELPS those who help themselves, but you gotta do x,y,z." They want to say "Jesus is the Savior.... kinda, sorta.... BUT YOU gotta........" in order to enter heaven, in order to have forgiveness, in order to have mercy. But all that is just a clever way of saying Jesus does NOT save.... Jesus is NOT the Savior.... the reason I'm heaven bound is because of ME, glory be to ME, thanks be to ME, pulling out a plum and shouting "What a good boy am I!" It's insisting that we are NOT saved/justified by the grace of God (getting what we don't deserve), we are saved/justified because I did all I had to do, I jumped through all the required hoops, I jumped high enough, I am good enough, I am smart enough...... It's kind of an insult to the Cross, an insult to Christ.... but maybe good for the ego of self (all that padding of self on the back) .... until one considers the "ENOUGH." Am I good ENOUGH? Have I decided ENOUGH? Have I jumped through all the required hoops? After all, it's easy to trust Christ but if we are honest .... if we are real..... if we stop fooling ourselves... self actually makes a very unreliable Savior.

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do _________" but then it's not grace.



.

- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

Do you think that the story of Lazarus is about Christian salvation?

Do you think you can play any part in giving yourself life or even new life? Resurrection? The answer is No. It's God's work.

 

[Brighten04]

I am still trying to understand how a person becomes a Christian in the Lutheran denomination. What is process? Is there a process?

 

[Lamb]

I am still trying to understand how a person becomes a Christian in the Lutheran denomination. What is process? Is there a process?

It's the biblical process that has been happening since biblical times. God converts us to be believers. God sustains us. That's how we become Christians and that's how we remain Christians. WE don't do anything to be a Christian. It's God's work.

 

[Brighten04]

It's the biblical process that has been happening since biblical times. God converts us to be believers. God sustains us. That's how we become Christians and that's how we remain Christians. WE don't do anything to be a Christian. It's God's work.

OK, how do you gain members to your church/denomination? This is what I am asking Lam.