Are Catholics boring catechists?

[MoreCoffee]

If I may be excused for butting in here, and for me remembering none of the specifics of the Menno posts that you referred to....

When people speak of no works, the point is (or ought to be) no works AS MERITORIOUS.

So that means that helping the poor or working for peace, for example, IS good, but such acts are good in themselves and because Christ called on us to do them. Its not that they increase our standing with God or enhance our prospects of reaching heaven.

I see what you wrote but how does it square with the story of Abram/Abraham? Didn't god reward Abraham because he obeyed God's command in this account?

(Genesis 22:16-18) and said, By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.​

It looks like Jehovah did count Abraham's obedience as meritorious and rewarded it with an oath to bless Abraham with a very bountiful supply of descendants. But maybe you intend your comment to mean that obedience is not meritorious for the salvation of one's soul? Does that square with what Jesus said about obedience to him and his commandments? John 15 says that obedience does matter. But I need to say here, because some will make a meal of my comments and pretend I am saying people merit their way into heaven by doing good works, that good works done in obedience to God do not earn a reward even when they are received by God with a reward. The Lord summarised it well and very clearly when he said when you have done all these things that have been taught to you, you should say: ‘We are useless servants. We have done what we should have done.’. Good works do not earn God's gratitude and a reward from being done but they can be and frequently are rewarded by God despite being no more than what was commanded and expected by God.

 

[Andrew]

If I may be excused for butting in here, and for me remembering none of the specifics of the Menno posts that you referred to....

When people speak of no works, the point is (or ought to be) no works AS MERITORIOUS.

So that means that helping the poor or working for peace, for example, IS good, but such acts are good in themselves and because Christ called on us to do them. Its not that they increase our standing with God or enhance our prospects of reaching heaven.

This ^^^^

 

[MoreCoffee]

If I may be excused for butting in here, and for me remembering none of the specifics of the Menno posts that you referred to....

When people speak of no works, the point is (or ought to be) no works AS MERITORIOUS.

So that means that helping the poor or working for peace, for example, IS good, but such acts are good in themselves and because Christ called on us to do them. Its not that they increase our standing with God or enhance our prospects of reaching heaven.

This ^^^^

I see what you wrote but how does it square with the story of Abram/Abraham? Didn't god reward Abraham because he obeyed God's command in this account?

(Genesis 22:16-18) and said, By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.​

It looks like Jehovah did count Abraham's obedience as meritorious and rewarded it with an oath to bless Abraham with a very bountiful supply of descendants. But maybe you intend your comment to mean that obedience is not meritorious for the salvation of one's soul? Does that square with what Jesus said about obedience to him and his commandments? John 15 says that obedience does matter. But I need to say here, because some will make a meal of my comments and pretend I am saying people merit their way into heaven by doing good works, that good works done in obedience to God do not earn a reward even when they are received by God with a reward. The Lord summarised it well and very clearly when he said when you have done all these things that have been taught to you, you should say: ‘We are useless servants. We have done what we should have done.’. Good works do not earn God's gratitude and a reward from being done but they can be and frequently are rewarded by God despite being no more than what was commanded and expected by God.

^^^^^ This

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

If I may be excused for butting in here, and for me remembering none of the specifics of the Menno posts that you referred to....

When people speak of no works, the point is (or ought to be) no works AS MERITORIOUS.

So that means that helping the poor or working for peace, for example, IS good, but such acts are good in themselves and because Christ called on us to do them. Its not that they increase our standing with God or enhance our prospects of reaching heaven.

I might agree (and I do agree with the way you've stated it); however, Menno has often made the point that such works are not good in and of themselves - that man is utterly incapable of 'good'. If I've mis-spoken for Menno, then I apologize.

 

[Andrew]

^^^^^ This

Abraham was before the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in acts, after receiving the Holy Spirit you become Gods workmanship and your works are the appointed works God has given you...

This! ^^^^^^^^

 

[MennoSota]

I might agree (and I do agree with the way you've stated it); however, Menno has often made the point that such works are not good in and of themselves - that man is utterly incapable of 'good'. If I've mis-spoken for Menno, then I apologize.

Albion makes a nuanced point. The works we do are not meritorious and therefore impressing God. They may be pragmatic and utilitarian which results in a benefit for others and for our own pride. Humanity may well judge them as "good."
Because corrupt rebels are doing the work, they cannot be holy works. They cannot be pure works of righteousness. They can be beneficial, however.
Ultimately, it will require us to define what God views as good. Can God define anything that is corrupted as being good?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Abraham was before the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in acts, after receiving the Holy Spirit you become Gods workmanship and your works are the appointed works God has given you...

This! ^^^^^^^^

Do you also disregard John 15 because it was said by Jesus before he died and the Holy Spirit was poured out? I hope not. God is said to be unchanging, one passage says he is the same yesterday, today, and forever so why would he accept as meritorious the good works of Abram/Abraham and have Jesus teach that obeying his commandments is bearing much fruit for which one remains in the vine and received a reward when judgement day comes if doing good was not meritorious? Good words do not earn a reward but they are often cited as a cause for rewards from God. It is true, of course, that all rewards from God are given by his kindness and grace and that no one can earn them nevertheless Abraham was promised a blessing because he obeyed God and Christian disciples are promised a reward because they obey the Lord's commandments. No earning implied but merit is definitely taught in the holy scriptures.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Albion makes a nuanced point. The works we do are not meritorious and therefore impressing God.

God says differently. God says he rewarded Abraham because he obeyed what God commanded. Here is the passage that says it. It is said twice in the passage. Pehaps to make absolutely sure that people do not walk away from the story and think that what Abraham did was unworthy and non-meritorious.

(Genesis 22:16-18) and said, By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.​

They may be pragmatic and utilitarian which results in a benefit for others and for our own pride. Humanity may well judge them as "good."
Because corrupt rebels are doing the work, they cannot be holy works. They cannot be pure works of righteousness. They can be beneficial, however.
Ultimately, it will require us to define what God views as good. Can God define anything that is corrupted as being good?

 

[MennoSota]

Do you also disregard John 15 because it was said by Jesus before he died and the Holy Spirit was poured out? I hope not. God is said to be unchanging, one passage says he is the same yesterday, today, and forever so why would he accept mas meritorious the good works of Abram/Abraham and have Jesus teach that obeying his commandments is bearing much fruit for which one remains in the vine and received a reward when judgement day comes if doing good was not meritorious? Good words do not earn a reward but they are often cited as a cause for rewards from God. It is true, of course, that all rewards from God are given by his kindness and grace and that no one can earn them nevertheless Abraham was promised a blessing because he obeyed God and Christian disciples are promised a reward because they obey the Lord's commandments. No earning implied but merit is definitely taught in the holy scriptures.

Your thoughts seem convoluted.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your thoughts seem convoluted.

Not convoluted, just detailed. That is what this subject demands. Attention to detail yields accuracy. Broad sweep statements do not yield accuracy.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Albion makes a nuanced point. The works we do are not meritorious and therefore impressing God. They may be pragmatic and utilitarian which results in a benefit for others and for our own pride. Humanity may well judge them as "good."
Because corrupt rebels are doing the work, they cannot be holy works. They cannot be pure works of righteousness. They can be beneficial, however.
Ultimately, it will require us to define what God views as good. Can God define anything that is corrupted as being good?

Thank you for clarifying

 

[MennoSota]

God says differently. God says he rewarded Abraham because he obeyed what God commanded. Here is the passage that says it. It is said twice in the passage. Pehaps to make absolutely sure that people do not walk away from the story and think that what Abraham did was unworthy and non-meritorious.

(Genesis 22:16-18) and said, By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.​

The promise had already been given to Abraham before Genesis 22.
Genesis 12:1-4
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

God chose. God blessed. Then Abraham obeyed.
Do you see how God Sovereignly works, despite our corruption.
Read from there how Abraham lies about his wife...twice and follows Sarah in faithlessness by sleeping with Hagar. Abraham did little to merit God's choice. But then God gave Abraham faith when the covenant be was formed when God walked through the chopped up bull. After that, God calls Abraham to offer up his son and because God made the covenant with Abraham, Abraham has faith. That faith results in Abraham's act, which God blesses in the passage you present.
But...you ignore all that God did to bring Abraham to the point you bring up. You deny God the glory due His name and praise Abraham as though Abraham did it all himself. It disappoints me when you do that.

 

[Josiah]

Are Catholics just about rules, regulations, and (supposed) Marian worship? Or do they get to have occasional fun? Are they like you and me? Do they read the bible for themselves and discern what it says?

Seems to ME we've been all over this MANY times.....

Assuming (as I do) that the faith proclaimed by those registered in parishes owned and operated by the RCC are sincere, then I accept them as my FULL, unseparated, entirely equal (in every way) brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we (solely by virtue of the mercy of God and atoneing work of Christ) will be sharing eternity in heaven. I accept the RC denomination as fully valid... its ministers and ministries as fully valid.... its Sacraments as fully valid.... Now, do I agree with every one of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the ever-changing RCC Catechism (including to the level claimed)? Nope (I'd be a Catholic if I did)... but then I've yet to met a "Catholic" who does, either (and my side of the family is filled with them).




.

 

[MennoSota]

Seems to ME we've been all over this MANY times.....

Assuming (as I do) that the faith proclaimed by those registered in parishes owned and operated by the RCC are sincere, then I accept them as my FULL, unseparated, entirely equal (in every way) brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we (solely by virtue of the mercy of God and atoneing work of Christ) will be sharing eternity in heaven. I accept the RC denomination as fully valid... its ministers and ministries as fully valid.... its Sacraments as fully valid.... Now, do I agree with every one of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the ever-changing RCC Catechism (including to the level claimed)? Nope (I'd be a Catholic if I did)... but then I've yet to met a "Catholic" who does, either (and my side of the family is filled with them).




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We accept people as they are. We do not approve of all they say or do.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Seems to ME we've been all over this MANY times.....

Perhaps, but how often do I actually start threads? Gimme some credit!

Assuming (as I do) that the faith proclaimed by those registered in parishes owned and operated by the RCC are sincere, then I accept them as my FULL, unseparated, entirely equal (in every way) brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we (solely by virtue of the mercy of God and atoneing work of Christ) will be sharing eternity in heaven. I accept the RC denomination as fully valid... its ministers and ministries as fully valid.... its Sacraments as fully valid.... Now, do I agree with every one of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the ever-changing RCC Catechism (including to the level claimed)? Nope (I'd be a Catholic if I did)... but then I've yet to met a "Catholic" who does, either (and my side of the family is filled with them).

Wonderful, but that didn't answer the OP. The Catholics of your acquaintance, are they merely catechists, hanging on every word of the 16,987,632 ever-changing points? Or do they actually (you know) go see a flick once in a while? Eat pizza? Dance? Get freak-y?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Or do they [meaning Catholics] actually (you know) go see a flick once in a while? Eat pizza? Dance? Get freak-y?

[irony] Oh no; no Catholic would ever do such frivolous things. Catholics are grave and serious and Jesuit to the core.[/irony]

 

[Albion]

God says differently. God says he rewarded Abraham because he obeyed what God commanded.

It was on account of Abraham's faith being genuine and secure that God rewarded him, not any "good deed." However, I see now that this point has already been made.

 

[Josiah]

The Catholics of your acquaintance, are they merely catechists, hanging on every word of the 16,987,632 ever-changing points? Or do they actually (you know) go see a flick once in a while? Eat pizza? Dance? Get freak-y?

The Catholics of "MY ACQUAINTANCE" do NOT hang on to every word in the Catechism... they are commanded to do so but none of them do. I generally accept the teachings of their denomination more than they do.

Yes, Catholics also breathe, eat, sleep, watch TV, have sex, etc. generally as most Christians (and non-Christians, for that matter).

I suspect I'm missing your point, my friend...



Thank you.


- Josiah




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[Arsenios]

The Catholics of "MY ACQUAINTANCE" do NOT hang on to every word in the Catechism... they are commanded to do so but none of them do. I generally accept the teachings of their denomination more than they do.

Yes, Catholics also breathe, eat, sleep, watch TV, have sex, etc. generally as most Christians (and non-Christians, for that matter).

I suspect I'm missing your point, my friend...

That was a funny post, Josiah - I'm not exactly sure why, and I didn't spit coffee reading it or anything, but I chuckled...

And I would observe that only the RCC has an "official" catechism - And they have it in large part because they see themselves as having the responsibility to have it, cue to their position of being the only Church that possesses the "Chair of Peter", which gives them an Authority of Doctrine and Morals that other Churches do not have, and who instead need the guidance that the Latin Church affords... So that in a certain sense, you should forgive them, for they are only doing what is right in their understanding... The fact that you disagree with that understanding in no way authorizes scornful treatment of it...

Eastern Catholics, the EOC, have a fair number of "catechisms", and a ton of books on the Faith of Christ... The Priest who catechizes his faithful at a largish Parish nearby simply does so without notes, taking the Nicene Creed and devoting a lecture to each phrase or line or word in it. For instance: "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible..." (the opening sentence of that Confession) is good for at least 4 lectures, and more if indicated... For us, the catechesis is done to establish the Gospel of Christ ontologically in our souls, so that we become that Gospel... It is not printed out on paper to establish it in some "objective" sense outside of ourselves... One of my favorite Christian adages is:

"Be careful in what you say and do, for you may be the ONLY Bible some folks may ever read..."


Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The Catholics of "MY ACQUAINTANCE" do NOT hang on to every word in the Catechism... they are commanded to do so but none of them do. I generally accept the teachings of their denomination more than they do.

Yes, Catholics also breathe, eat, sleep, watch TV, have sex, etc. generally as most Christians (and non-Christians, for that matter).

I suspect I'm missing your point, my friend...



Thank you.


- Josiah




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I was merely re-phrasing the OP as it wasn't really addressed by your initial response is all. Perhaps I was being a bit 'flippant', but that was the intent. I didn't intend the thread to be a "do you accept/reject Catholic doctrine/practice" issue of which, you rightly noted, we have been over many times. I'm just struck by the impression that some have that certain Christians live and die by the catechism of their faith and little else is left to influence their thinking.