Are Catholics boring catechists?

[MennoSota]

I was merely re-phrasing the OP as it wasn't really addressed by your initial response is all. Perhaps I was being a bit 'flippant', but that was the intent. I didn't intend the thread to be a "do you accept/reject Catholic doctrine/practice" issue of which, you rightly noted, we have been over many times. I'm just struck by the impression that some have that certain Christians live and die by the catechism of their faith and little else is left to influence their thinking.

Well...they always have Francis the Marxist to turn to...

 

[Josiah]

I was merely re-phrasing the OP as it wasn't really addressed by your initial response is all. Perhaps I was being a bit 'flippant', but that was the intent. I didn't intend the thread to be a "do you accept/reject Catholic doctrine/practice" issue of which, you rightly noted, we have been over many times. I'm just struck by the impression that some have that certain Christians live and die by the catechism of their faith and little else is left to influence their thinking.

[MENTION=55]ImaginaryDay2[/MENTION]


Thank you. It seemed to ME one of your point was whether Catholics have fun... another whether Catholics are "authentic."


Perhaps the underlining issue is Authority. A good topic.... a VERY important topic.... but a very difficult one (and not just in theology). There is a BALANCE, a tension, between authority and accountability - and that is often quite subjective... and a tension/balance between this being collective and individual. In Christianity, it seems to ME that some groups "lean" far too much in one direction or the other - Catholicism OFFICIALLY has no accountability and is extremely individualistic (although it's the individual denomination rather than the individual believer), and post-modern "Evangelicalism" a weird mixture of authoritarianism and individualism, a weird mixture rather than a balance.


IMO, there IS an absolute authority - but it is God, not simply some individual denomination or person proclaiming SELF to be some infallible/unaccountable Authority (whether claiming some divine appointment or not). I don't think God never resigned. But where do we fine that Authority? IMO, in His written word to us ALL (thus, an objective Authority ABOVE all individual persons and denominations).... as embraced by us ALL (thus my embrace of Tradition in the Protestant sense, my embrace of the Ecumenical Councils and Creeds) and of the church catholic rather than "God and ME" (whether "me" be an individual person or denomination).


Is this easy? Absolutely not! Tension.... balance.... rarely is. I (as a very young person) STRUGGLED much with this as I "left" one denomination (that of my whole family - going back hundreds of generations) and eventually into another. What gives ME such an ability? What gives ME any "right" to challenge or decide?? Humility.... submission..... accountability..... Not easy stuff. I passionately reject relativism and minimalism.... but also self proclaiming self to be a divine prophet, a divine authority.


To your issue of Catholicism..... It's IMPORTANT to realize the rubric in the RCC predates our modern thoughts of accountability that arose in the post middle ages, a revolution happening in Luther's time. The RCC arose in an age of absolutism... in the Roman world where dictatorship... a milieu entirely void of any sense of accountability... there is the General and there are the mindless soldiers. The RCC is - above all else - ROMAN. It's deep, deep in its "DNA." Thing is.... it's also a WESTERN institution and "felt" the modern paradigm shift as much as any other Western institution (think Luther - a Catholic monk). If you read the Catechism and official RCC positions.... if you were raised Catholic.... this whole idea of blind, absolute submission is KEY and foundational and deep in its DNA. I'll give you a personal example: I once asked a Catholic teacher about some RCC dogma (I forget which; doesn't matter) and simply asked if it was true, how we know it's true, what apologetic there is (all, I confess, are very MODERN questions)... to which the teacher said (and this is a verbatim quote), "Josiah - if Jesus Himself stood in front of you and told you this, would you ask Him if it was true, what proof He had? Of course not! So, why ask such a stupid question of the Catholic Church?" AH... a very accurate Catholic response. EXACTLY as the Catechism itself states. EXACTLY as the RCC has so often claimed. When it speaks, JESUS HIMSELF is literally speaking.... and so it is no more accountable than Jesus is. And it is very individualistic, it's not the church catholic speaking.... it's not the EOC speaking.... it's it itself speaking.... AT THAT MOMENT. I "get" this.... and it IS the official position (although SOME Catholics will TRY to deny that, to "save face" for self).


Thing is, my friend, VERY few Catholics DO that. You WILL find a few hyper-Catholics, some fundamentalist Catholics (we meet them online... or just go to the CatholicAnswers website). I had some as Catholic teachers, my Deacon was one of these, ironically I sincerely doubt my Catholic pastor was one of these (I think he was quite the opposite). The REALITY is, modern Western Catholics are exactly the same as modern Western Protestants in this sense. My Deacon spoke of "Catholics.... Cafeteria Catholics.... Protestants hiding in the Church" (I could expand and explain) and noted that "Catholics" are a very, very rare bunch. I'D agree.... bottom line, most Catholics.... well..... aren't. They take the same approach as you'd find in most Evangelical churches - the accept what they like and reject what they want... they listen to what the denomination says but don't necessarily swallow it.... they look at their denomination as just that and nothing more... they are, in epistemology anyway, the antithesis of Catholicism. They just don't admit it. IMO, they go too far.... I like the balance in conservative/traditional/confessional Protestantism (whether Lutheran, Reformed or Anglican) MUCH better although I admit such is a very small minority of Protestantism. And again, this is very, very difficult in practice. Where is that tension, that balance? Ah.... it ain't easy.


Of course, this may well be my most frequent point in my posts here.... my most common theme.... approached from many angles. The "absolute authoritarianism" that pushed me out of the RCC is in fact found just as much (sometimes worse, sometimes MUCH worse) in modern Protestantism. My challenging things is simply embracing accountability.... my looking to Scripture as Tradition understands is simply embracing authority.... my embrace of Mystery is simply embracing WE TOGETHER can't always pin this down, and MY opinion (while permitted) don't count because I'M no authority.


But I'm probably hijacking your thread.... and this is difficult stuff that's probably not something discussable at interdenominational sites like this. In these, we seldom move beyond "sound bites" and slogans.... and of course, in this uber-relativistic and individualistic world in which we live, what SELF thinks ultimately is all that matters, making this whole topic.... well.... irrelevant.



Sorry.



- Josiah




.

 

[Albion]

I didn't intend the thread to be a "do you accept/reject Catholic doctrine/practice" issue of which, you rightly noted, we have been over many times. I'm just struck by the impression that some have that certain Christians live and die by the catechism of their faith and little else is left to influence their thinking.

.
That seems a fair statement as far as Roman Catholicism is concerned. At the same time, it is also true that many loyal members either cannot get into all the legalisms or else do not care about them.
.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

.
...At the same time, it is also true that many loyal members either cannot get into all the legalisms or else do not care about them.

I quoted this part as it brought up a thought for me (obviously... lol). Anyway, it brought to mind a person who states he is Catholic, has had conversations about his faith, but would be the last person you would think of as 'Catholic' - that being Tom Araya of the band 'Slayer'. He has said that he creates a necessary separation between what he does with Slayer and his personal, private faith as a Catholic. For him, there is no conflict between the two. And I know that would shock most people who even have a casual knowledge of what I'm referring to. He has stated that his faith is much more on the liberal end, but that his faith is authentic, he identifies as a Christian and personally holds those values, although he may not get into all the legalisms as you mentioned. It doesn't make his faith any weaker or less relevant for him

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=55]ImaginaryDay2[/MENTION]


Thank you. It seemed to ME one of your point was whether Catholics have fun... another whether Catholics are "authentic."


Perhaps the underlining issue is Authority. A good topic.... a VERY important topic.... but a very difficult one (and not just in theology). There is a BALANCE, a tension, between authority and accountability - and that is often quite subjective... and a tension/balance between this being collective and individual. In Christianity, it seems to ME that some groups "lean" far too much in one direction or the other - Catholicism OFFICIALLY has no accountability and is extremely individualistic (although it's the individual denomination rather than the individual believer), and post-modern "Evangelicalism" a weird mixture of authoritarianism and individualism, a weird mixture rather than a balance.


IMO, there IS an absolute authority - but it is God, not simply some individual denomination or person proclaiming SELF to be some infallible/unaccountable Authority (whether claiming some divine appointment or not). I don't think God never resigned. But where do we fine that Authority? IMO, in His written word to us ALL (thus, an objective Authority ABOVE all individual persons and denominations).... as embraced by us ALL (thus my embrace of Tradition in the Protestant sense, my embrace of the Ecumenical Councils and Creeds) and of the church catholic rather than "God and ME" (whether "me" be an individual person or denomination).


Is this easy? Absolutely not! Tension.... balance.... rarely is. I (as a very young person) STRUGGLED much with this as I "left" one denomination (that of my whole family - going back hundreds of generations) and eventually into another. What gives ME such an ability? What gives ME any "right" to challenge or decide?? Humility.... submission..... accountability..... Not easy stuff. I passionately reject relativism and minimalism.... but also self proclaiming self to be a divine prophet, a divine authority.


To your issue of Catholicism..... It's IMPORTANT to realize the rubric in the RCC predates our modern thoughts of accountability that arose in the post middle ages, a revolution happening in Luther's time. The RCC arose in an age of absolutism... in the Roman world where dictatorship... a milieu entirely void of any sense of accountability... there is the General and there are the mindless soldiers. The RCC is - above all else - ROMAN. It's deep, deep in its "DNA." Thing is.... it's also a WESTERN institution and "felt" the modern paradigm shift as much as any other Western institution (think Luther - a Catholic monk). If you read the Catechism and official RCC positions.... if you were raised Catholic.... this whole idea of blind, absolute submission is KEY and foundational and deep in its DNA. I'll give you a personal example: I once asked a Catholic teacher about some RCC dogma (I forget which; doesn't matter) and simply asked if it was true, how we know it's true, what apologetic there is (all, I confess, are very MODERN questions)... to which the teacher said (and this is a verbatim quote), "Josiah - if Jesus Himself stood in front of you and told you this, would you ask Him if it was true, what proof He had? Of course not! So, why ask such a stupid question of the Catholic Church?" AH... a very accurate Catholic response. EXACTLY as the Catechism itself states. EXACTLY as the RCC has so often claimed. When it speaks, JESUS HIMSELF is literally speaking.... and so it is no more accountable than Jesus is. And it is very individualistic, it's not the church catholic speaking.... it's not the EOC speaking.... it's it itself speaking.... AT THAT MOMENT. I "get" this.... and it IS the official position (although SOME Catholics will TRY to deny that, to "save face" for self).


Thing is, my friend, VERY few Catholics DO that. You WILL find a few hyper-Catholics, some fundamentalist Catholics (we meet them online... or just go to the CatholicAnswers website). I had some as Catholic teachers, my Deacon was one of these, ironically I sincerely doubt my Catholic pastor was one of these (I think he was quite the opposite). The REALITY is, modern Western Catholics are exactly the same as modern Western Protestants in this sense. My Deacon spoke of "Catholics.... Cafeteria Catholics.... Protestants hiding in the Church" (I could expand and explain) and noted that "Catholics" are a very, very rare bunch. I'D agree.... bottom line, most Catholics.... well..... aren't. They take the same approach as you'd find in most Evangelical churches - the accept what they like and reject what they want... they listen to what the denomination says but don't necessarily swallow it.... they look at their denomination as just that and nothing more... they are, in epistemology anyway, the antithesis of Catholicism. They just don't admit it. IMO, they go too far.... I like the balance in conservative/traditional/confessional Protestantism (whether Lutheran, Reformed or Anglican) MUCH better although I admit such is a very small minority of Protestantism. And again, this is very, very difficult in practice. Where is that tension, that balance? Ah.... it ain't easy.


Of course, this may well be my most frequent point in my posts here.... my most common theme.... approached from many angles. The "absolute authoritarianism" that pushed me out of the RCC is in fact found just as much (sometimes worse, sometimes MUCH worse) in modern Protestantism. My challenging things is simply embracing accountability.... my looking to Scripture as Tradition understands is simply embracing authority.... my embrace of Mystery is simply embracing WE TOGETHER can't always pin this down, and MY opinion (while permitted) don't count because I'M no authority.


But I'm probably hijacking your thread.... and this is difficult stuff that's probably not something discussable at interdenominational sites like this. In these, we seldom move beyond "sound bites" and slogans.... and of course, in this uber-relativistic and individualistic world in which we live, what SELF thinks ultimately is all that matters, making this whole topic.... well.... irrelevant.



Sorry.



- Josiah




.

In summary...most Western Christians live like practical atheists.

 

[Andrew]

In summary...most Western Christians live like practical atheists.

Is that so because i don't see that one bit but the opposite ... -explain your prejudice and assumption that we live as blind christians even tho you don't know any of us at all personally and far frome it friend

 

[MennoSota]

Is that so because i don't see that one bit but the opposite ... -explain your prejudice and assumption that we live as blind christians even tho you don't know any of us at all personally and far frome it friend

My observation (anecdotal) is that Christians in the West engage in reason to solve their problems. We trust in our medical research, our pension plan, our network of relationships so that we can problem solve whatever comes along.
When sickness arises we spend our resources on medical cures and go into debt to solve the dilemma. It is at the last resort where we go to God for healing and having the elders anoint with oil. It is after we exhaust all our well reasoned ideas and networks that we lean on God our Father.
Now, this is a general observation. There is no doubt that some people don't follow the path I have presented. But, since more than half of the US claims to be Christian, I would state that of those claiming to be Christian, the majority live like practical atheists.
I would also state that actual atheists likely are better read in the Bible than many self-identifying Christians.

 

[Josiah]

@ImaginaryDay2


Thank you. It seemed to ME one of your point was whether Catholics have fun... another whether Catholics are "authentic."


Perhaps the underlining issue is Authority. A good topic.... a VERY important topic.... but a very difficult one (and not just in theology).


IMO, there is a BALANCE, a tension, between authority and accountability - and that is often quite subjective... and a tension/balance between this being collective and individual. In Christianity, it seems to ME that some groups "lean" far too much in one direction or the other - Catholicism OFFICIALLY has no accountability and is extremely individualistic (although it's the individual denomination rather than the individual believer), and post-modern "Evangelicalism" a weird mixture of authoritarianism and individualism, a weird mixture rather than a balance.


IMO, there IS an absolute authority - but it is God, not simply some individual denomination or person proclaiming SELF to be some infallible/unaccountable Authority (whether claiming some divine appointment or not). I don't think God never resigned. But where do we fine that Authority? IMO, in His written word to us ALL (thus, an objective Authority ABOVE all individual persons and denominations).... as embraced by us ALL (thus my embrace of Tradition in the Protestant sense, my embrace of the Ecumenical Councils and Creeds) and of the church catholic rather than "God and ME" (whether "me" be an individual person or denomination).


Is this easy? Absolutely not! Tension.... balance.... rarely is. I (as a very young person) STRUGGLED much with this as I "left" one denomination (that of my whole family - going back hundreds of generations) and eventually into another. What gives ME such an ability? What gives ME any "right" to challenge or decide?? Humility.... submission..... accountability..... Not easy stuff. I passionately reject relativism and minimalism.... but also self proclaiming self to be a divine prophet, a divine authority.



To your issue of Catholicism..... It's IMPORTANT to realize the rubric in the RCC predates our modern thoughts of accountability that arose in the post middle ages, a revolution happening in Luther's time. The RCC arose in an age of absolutism... in the Roman world where dictatorship... a milieu entirely void of any sense of accountability... there is the General and there are the mindless soldiers. The RCC is - above all else - ROMAN. It's deep, deep in its "DNA." Thing is.... it's also a WESTERN institution and "felt" the modern paradigm shift as much as any other Western institution (think Luther - a Catholic monk). If you read the Catechism and official RCC positions.... if you were raised Catholic.... this whole idea of blind, absolute submission is KEY and foundational and deep in its DNA. I'll give you a personal example: I once asked a Catholic teacher about some RCC dogma (I forget which; doesn't matter) and simply asked if it was true, how we know it's true, what apologetic there is (all, I confess, are very MODERN questions)... to which the teacher said (and this is a verbatim quote), "Josiah - if Jesus Himself stood in front of you and told you this, would you ask Him if it was true, what proof He had? Of course not! So, why ask such a stupid question of the Catholic Church?" AH... a very accurate Catholic response. EXACTLY as the Catechism itself states. EXACTLY as the RCC has so often claimed. When it speaks, JESUS HIMSELF is literally speaking.... and so it is no more accountable than Jesus is. And it is very individualistic, it's not the church catholic speaking.... it's not the EOC speaking.... it's it itself speaking.... AT THAT MOMENT. I "get" this.... and it IS the official position (although SOME Catholics will TRY to deny that, to "save face" for self).


Thing is, my friend, VERY few Catholics DO that. You WILL find a few hyper-Catholics, some fundamentalist Catholics (we meet them online... or just go to the CatholicAnswers website). I had some as Catholic teachers, my Deacon was one of these, ironically I sincerely doubt my Catholic pastor was one of these (I think he was quite the opposite). The REALITY is, modern Western Catholics are exactly the same as modern Western Protestants in this sense. My Deacon spoke of "Catholics.... Cafeteria Catholics.... Protestants hiding in the Church" (I could expand and explain) and noted that "Catholics" are a very, very rare bunch. I'D agree.... bottom line, most Catholics.... well..... aren't. They take the same approach as you'd find in most Evangelical churches - the accept what they like and reject what they want... they listen to what the denomination says but don't necessarily swallow it.... they look at their denomination as just that and nothing more... they are, in epistemology anyway, the antithesis of Catholicism. They just don't admit it. IMO, they go too far.... I like the balance in conservative/traditional/confessional Protestantism (whether Lutheran, Reformed or Anglican) MUCH better although I admit such is a very small minority of Protestantism. And again, this is very, very difficult in practice. Where is that tension, that balance? Ah.... it ain't easy.


Of course, this may well be my most frequent point in my posts here.... my most common theme.... approached from many angles. The "absolute authoritarianism" that pushed me out of the RCC is in fact found just as much (sometimes worse, sometimes MUCH worse) in modern Protestantism. My challenging things is simply embracing accountability.... my looking to Scripture as Tradition understands is simply embracing authority.... my embrace of Mystery is simply embracing WE TOGETHER can't always pin this down, and MY opinion (while permitted) don't count because I'M no authority.


But I'm probably hijacking your thread.... and this is difficult stuff that's probably not something discussable at interdenominational sites like this. In these, we seldom move beyond "sound bites" and slogans.... and of course, in this uber-relativistic and individualistic world in which we live, what SELF thinks ultimately is all that matters, making this whole topic.... well.... irrelevant.



Sorry.



- Josiah




.

In summary...most Western Christians live like practical atheists.

I would not say so..... and I said nothing about how anyone "lives."

I wrote of the issue of authority.... it's an epistimological issue. One of the foundational issues of the Reformation. I shared my view that in practice, the VAST majority of Catholics ... well... aren't (most are the antithesis of Catholics). And in practice, the epistemology of most Protestants is the same as that of nearly all Catholics - a VERY western and modern approach. IMO, traditional/conservative/confessional "first wave" Protestantism (found in Lutheran Reformed and Anglican communities) ATTEMPTS to "keep the balance" but as I noted, this is extremely hard in practice.



Thank you.


Josiah




.

 

[Andrew]

My observation (anecdotal) is that Christians in the West engage in reason to solve their problems. We trust in our medical research, our pension plan, our network of relationships so that we can problem solve whatever comes along.
When sickness arises we spend our resources on medical cures and go into debt to solve the dilemma. It is at the last resort where we go to God for healing and having the elders anoint with oil. It is after we exhaust all our well reasoned ideas and networks that we lean on God our Father.
Now, this is a general observation. There is no doubt that some people don't follow the path I have presented. But, since more than half of the US claims to be Christian, I would state that of those claiming to be Christian, the majority live like practical atheists.
I would also state that actual atheists likely are better read in the Bible than many self-identifying Christians.

Thats very true

 

[NewCreation435]

I know very few practicing Catholics, so I really wouldn't know.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know very few practicing Catholics, so I really wouldn't know.

Your sort of know me