Are babies sinners?

[Josiah]

...Were God...

I couldn't agree more...

But until they golf, they are not golfers...

When you make up your mind, let us know. If babies miss the target, as you insist they do ("I couldn't agree more") then by definition they are sinful. If I have a cold, I have a cold - whether or not I happen to be sneezing at that moment; even if I've never sneezed.


The word "sin", of course, means "to miss the mark." In the ancient Greek Olympics, if an archer didn't hit the bullseye, he "sinned" because he missed the target. So what is the "target?" What God wills for us: To be morally as perfect as He is, to be as loving and giving and sacrificial as He is, to be Christ-like. In our thoughts, words and deeds (because these tend to reflect what is INSIDE us, what is our NATURE, the "tree" that exists), by what we do/think/feel/desire and what we don't. The Bible says, "if ANYONE claims to be without sin, he is a LIAR." Now, either God is a liar in saying that or people are lairs in denying that.

Now, yes, some today agree with the Pharisees on this and disagree with Jesus: some hold that sin is only an OUTWARD thing, an OUTWARD and willful violation of some rule that is held to be divine. Jesus, of course, fundamentally disagreed. Jesus held that it's what is on the INSIDE, in our nature, in our heart, in our inmost being... that eventually reveals itself.




.

 

[Bluezone777]

I like to know how exactly can two sinful adults bring forth a child that's not sinful? If the adults miss the mark and are imperfect which is essentially what being sinful entails, how could they possibly create anything perfect which is what being sinless entails?

 

[Arsenios]

When you make up your mind, let us know. If babies miss the target, as you insist they do ("I couldn't agree more") then by definition they are sinful. If I have a cold, I have a cold - whether or not I happen to be sneezing at that moment; even if I've never sneezed.


The word "sin", of course, means "to miss the mark." In the ancient Greek Olympics, if an archer didn't hit the bullseye, he "sinned" because he missed the target. So what is the "target?" What God wills for us: To be morally as perfect as He is, to be as loving and giving and sacrificial as He is, to be Christ-like. In our thoughts, words and deeds (because these tend to reflect what is INSIDE us, what is our NATURE, the "tree" that exists), by what we do/think/feel/desire and what we don't. The Bible says, "if ANYONE claims to be without sin, he is a LIAR." Now, either God is a liar in saying that or people are lairs in denying that.

Now, yes, some today agree with the Pharisees on this and disagree with Jesus: some hold that sin is only an OUTWARD thing, an OUTWARD and willful violation of some rule that is held to be divine. Jesus, of course, fundamentally disagreed. Jesus held that it's what is on the INSIDE, in our nature, in our heart, in our inmost being... that eventually reveals itself.
.

Missing the mark has a presupposition that one is trying to hit the mark...

Babies, especially pre-natal ones, are not trying to hit the mark...

Sinning is not something the unborn do, my brother...

Or should we say that law-breakers should be flogged and start flogging new-borns?

You really are arguing that only if unborn babies ARE God can they then not be sinners...

Are babies sinners at conception, in your view???

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I like to know how exactly can two sinful adults bring forth a child that's not sinful? If the adults miss the mark and are imperfect which is essentially what being sinful entails, how could they possibly create anything perfect which is what being sinless entails?

Failure to commit sin is perfection?

Are babies sinners at conception?

You are a sinner when you sin...

The Gospel of Christ is the Gospel of Repentance from sin...

Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!


Arsenios

 

[Bluezone777]

When Adam and Eve were created, they were without sin until they sinned because they were pure at the start of their existence while the rest of us are not as we inherited our sin nature from our parents. Doing so, they defiled themselves and everything they touch and do is defiled much like how a sickness operates. They pass on their defiled state to their children and they do the same for their children and so forth. Even being born again, does not purify one's body as it's still defiled by sin hence why a child born to two born again adults is not without sin because being born again does not do anything to the body while on Earth. It is why a genuine believer wars with his carnal nature as the carnal sinful nature is still there but now has a secondary spiritual nature which wars against it when before the carnal nature of man had full control of that person and why the bible can state all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God because there is no way for one to purify their body from sin while on Earth. That day is coming but is not here yet. When a genuine believer dies, they part ways with their sin defiled body and are left with their cleansed spirit that was cleansed by Jesus via His sacrifice on the cross while a nonbeliever carries his defilement to the judgment seat where Christ will judge him guilty and separate him forever in hell because God cannot be in the presence of sin.

 

[Arsenios]

When you make up your mind, let us know.
.

I made up my mind!

Until the Law sin, which is in the world is not accounted sin. Rom 5:13...

Menno rejected these words of Paul without hesitation...

So your point, that men sin, men who do not know the Law, in their manner of life, is true...

Yet they see themselves as without sin, because they do not know the Law...

And God does not account as sins the deeds they do which violate the Law...

Sin and Law-less-ness are marriage partners...

Sin is knowing what you should not do and doing it, or not doing as you should do...

So this cosmic sin you tout as fallen man's standard...
By which God judges and condemns and destroys man...
Which is unavoidable by all except God Himself...
Is NOT God's Standard off His judgement of man...
It is yours alone, against Rom 5:13...

God will judge the Living and the dead...
And the standards of that Judgement...
Are not the same...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

When Adam and Eve were created, they were without sin until they sinned because they were pure at the start of their existence while the rest of us are not as we inherited our sin nature from our parents. Doing so, they defiled themselves and everything they touch and do is defiled much like how a sickness operates. They pass on their defiled state to their children and they do the same for their children and so forth. Even being born again, does not purify one's body as it's still defiled by sin hence why a child born to two born again adults is not without sin because being born again does not do anything to the body while on Earth. It is why a genuine believer wars with his carnal nature as the carnal sinful nature is still there but now has a secondary spiritual nature which wars against it when before the carnal nature of man had full control of that person and why the bible can state all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God because there is no way for one to purify their body from sin while on Earth. That day is coming but is not here yet. When a genuine believer dies, they part ways with their sin defiled body and are left with their cleansed spirit that was cleansed by Jesus via His sacrifice on the cross while a nonbeliever carries his defilement to the judgment seat where Christ will judge him guilty and separate him forever in hell because God cannot be in the presence of sin.

Thank-you -

You almost got that all out in one breath!

So how then do you understand Jesus' words in John 20:17?

λεγει αυτη ιησους
Jesus tells her:

μη μου απτου
"Be not touching me...

ουπω γαρ αναβεβηκα
For not yet have I ascended

προς τον πατερα
to the Father."

Is this the sin nature of Jesus' body that He does not want her touching?

Or is it the fallen human nature in which He conquered death?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

When Paul was addressing, as one of them, those knowing the Law, and he was lamenting, as one knowing the Law, how he was unable to overcome sin, remember?

Remember how he complained how he would do what he hated, and he would not do that which he loved?

Remember his final lament?

His piteous crying forth?

Did he ask who would deliver him from sin???

And that answer is absolutely NO!

Can you not hear even the Apostle Paul?

Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me...
From the body of this death?

Death rules through the body...
Through pleasure and pain...
Vanity and fear...
Thoughts and desires...

As one knowing the Law, he was ruled by death...
His body was ruled by this death...
Jesus in His Own Body put death to death on the cross...
He descended into Hades and overcame death...

And we in Him are Called to do the same...
And we overcome death by overcoming sin...
And this we do in ourselves in Christ...
Outside of Christ we will fail, as Paul reported...

Arsenios