Are babies sinners?

[Bluezone777]

I am quite baffled why such a question as the one this thread is about is going on ten pages with no agreement especially on a website that purports itself to be a haven for Christians.

In plain and simple text, the Bible states that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." and it also states that " The wages of sin is death..." with no ifs ands or buts attached to either statement in scripture. If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned then it could be said with biblical support that babies having had died will lend itself to the belief that babies are in fact sinners from birth. I think one issue at hand is people look at a baby and can't see the sin nature at work and then think the baby is sinless because of what they can or can't see. Let that baby grow up and you will find out just how much a unrepentant sinner he or she is apart from the saving grace of God if it should come to said child before he or she reaches adulthood. I believe that a sin nature in any person takes time for the symptoms and evidence of its existence in a person to manifest itself in such a way that it can be seen but that does in any way mean it wasn't always there from the beginning.

 

[MennoSota]

Thanks for that LUTHERAN response.... Yup, both Law and Gospel are BOTH fully true (simultaneously).


Now, babies would be sinless if they ALWAYS, PERFECTLY "hit the target" of being the moral equal of God.... as holy as God, as perfect as God, as loving as God.... that because it is their NATURE, who they ARE. BTW, it would also mean they would never die ("the result of sin is death" the Bible says regarding humans). Now, there is the INVENTION (entirely unbiblical) that God doesn't give rip about this until they reach some magical age of X (which age God refuses to disclose) but that's different than arguing that they are as holy, perfect, loving and self-sacrificing as is God Himself (sinless), that invention of the Anabaptists is that God doesn't care (isn't Just) until some never-disclosed birthday is celebrated (Anabaptists being quite fixated on mysterious birthdays).

How you jump the shark to your invented "magical age of x theory" is beyond me.
The only thing you said that is of value is that infants would never die if the sin nature were not in them. This means that there would never be miscarriage or loss of life until the moment of conscious sin. Infants would be new Adams until they chose to break God's commands.

 

[Lamb]

I am quite baffled why such a question as the one this thread is about is going on ten pages with no agreement especially on a website that purports itself to be a haven for Christians.

In plain and simple text, the Bible states that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." and it also states that " The wages of sin is death..." with no ifs ands or buts attached to either statement in scripture. If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned then it could be said with biblical support that babies having had died will lend itself to the belief that babies are in fact sinners from birth. I think one issue at hand is people look at a baby and can't see the sin nature at work and then think the baby is sinless because of what they can or can't see. Let that baby grow up and you will find out just how much a unrepentant sinner he or she is apart from the saving grace of God if it should come to said child before he or she reaches adulthood. I believe that a sin nature in any person takes time for the symptoms and evidence of its existence in a person to manifest itself in such a way that it can be seen but that does in any way mean it wasn't always there from the beginning.

The answer lies in the way that people define "sin" and in doing so, some have reduced it significantly so that it doesn't encompass all of that which the bible tells us. Then they start to think that they can lead sinless lives.

 

[atpollard]

Do you accuse them of being totally stupid because they do not know that 2+3=5?

You sure do not accuse them of being self centered God-haters...

Children are born under the rulership of death - They do not have the Life that Adam lost for them...

They may come to have the Life Christ prepared for them...

sheesh!!

A.

They are not MY COMMANDMENTS. The baby has not violated MY Law.
They are GOD’s Commandments and EVERYONE that does not obey them has violated GOD’s Law.

I accuse them of nothing and YOU did not answer the questions.
If the unborn obey God’s Law, then they are guiltless and if the unborn do not obey God’s Law then they are guilty ... that is just how a Law works.

 

[Josiah]

The answer lies in the way that people define "sin" and in doing so, some have reduced it significantly so that it doesn't encompass all of that which the bible tells us. Then they start to think that they can lead sinless lives.

... and whether we agree with Jesus that sin comes from the INSIDE and (may eventually) reveal itself.... or whether we agree with the Pharisees that it is just a clear, willful, ACT that violates our understanding of some rule we think comes from God.


The word, of course, means "to miss the mark." In the olympics, if an archer didn't hit the bullseye, he "sinned" because he missed the target. So what is the "target?" What God wills for us: To be morally as perfect as He is, to be as loving and giving and sacrificial as He is, to be Christ-like. In our thoughts, words and deeds (because these tend to reflect what is INSIDE us, what is our NATURE, the "tree" that exists), by what we do/think/feel/desire and what we don't. The Bible says, "if ANYONE claims to be without sin, he is a LIAR." Now, either God is a liar in saying that or people are lairs in denying that.




.

 

[MennoSota]

I am quite baffled why such a question as the one this thread is about is going on ten pages with no agreement especially on a website that purports itself to be a haven for Christians.

In plain and simple text, the Bible states that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." and it also states that " The wages of sin is death..." with no ifs ands or buts attached to either statement in scripture. If the wages of sin is death and all have sinned then it could be said with biblical support that babies having had died will lend itself to the belief that babies are in fact sinners from birth. I think one issue at hand is people look at a baby and can't see the sin nature at work and then think the baby is sinless because of what they can or can't see. Let that baby grow up and you will find out just how much a unrepentant sinner he or she is apart from the saving grace of God if it should come to said child before he or she reaches adulthood. I believe that a sin nature in any person takes time for the symptoms and evidence of its existence in a person to manifest itself in such a way that it can be seen but that does in any way mean it wasn't always there from the beginning.

Indeed, Bluezone777, the question should not have to be asked...and yet...here we are. Unfortunately not all Christians seem to recognize the nature of sin and the scriptures that define human nature.
As the OP, I merely desired to expose the human tendency to try skirt around God's word and thus attempt to make God in our image.

 

[Arsenios]

Now, babies would be sinless if they...

...Were God...

I couldn't agree more...

But until they golf, they are not golfers...

And until they sin, they are not sinners...

Quid, Erat, Splat!

Are you arguing that they are sinners at conception?

And if yes, then where in the Bible does it say THAT???


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

They are not MY COMMANDMENTS. The baby has not violated MY Law.
They are GOD’s Commandments and EVERYONE that does not obey them has violated GOD’s Law.

Then you are a Crime and Punishment Christian...

But listen to Jesus:
Mat 19:14
But Jesus said,
Suffer little children,
and forbid them not,
to come unto me:
for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

And:

Mar 10:15
Verily I say unto you,
Whosoever shall not receive
the kingdom of God
as a little child,
he shall not enter therein.

I accuse them of nothing and YOU did not answer the questions.

You accused them of being sinners...

If the unborn obey God’s Law,
then they are guiltless
and
if the unborn do not obey God’s Law
then they are guilty ...
that is just how a Law works.

Unborn babies...

Guilty in the womb...

And we wonder why churches are being sold and turned into art galleries and restaurants...

And America is turning into a secular cesspool...

Lord have Mercy!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

...Were God...

I couldn't agree more...

But until they golf, they are not golfers...

And until they sin, they are not sinners...

Quid, Erat, Splat!

Are you arguing that they are sinners at conception?

And if yes, then where in the Bible does it say THAT???


Arsenios

Do the sinless suffer death? If so, are they spotless lambs of God?
Did Christ die for the infant in the womb, or was it unnecessary? How about for the infant out of the womb? When was his death necessary for children?
Do you see your slippery slope?
Romans 5:8-12
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Romans 11:32: For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Paul is here comparing Jews and Gentiles. That means everyone.

Everyone has the same standing in God’s eyes.

Babies too?

Where in Holy Scripture does it say that babies are excluded? And where does it say that that exclusion expires, and under what circumstances?

The Scriptural answers to those two questions should settle the matter once and for all. Is that not so?

==============================================================================================

 

[Arsenios]

Do the sinless suffer death? If so, are they spotless lambs of God?
Did Christ die for the infant in the womb, or was it unnecessary? How about for the infant out of the womb? When was his death necessary for children?
Do you see your slippery slope?

Great argument for infant Baptism!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Do the sinless suffer death? If so, are they spotless lambs of God?
Did Christ die for the infant in the womb, or was it unnecessary? How about for the infant out of the womb? When was his death necessary for children?
Do you see your slippery slope?

We are all born into Adam's death, whether we sin or not - Even Christ died...

Welcome to the Fall...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

We are all born into Adam's death, whether we sin or not - Even Christ died...

Welcome to the Fall...

Arsenios

Into Adams death?
This means we are all born in sin.
Jesus gave up his life as an atoning sacrifice. No one took it from him.

 

[MennoSota]

Great argument for infant Baptism!

Arsenios

...if perhaps one embraces water baptism as the means by which a human is saved. Of course that makes grace irrelevant.

 

[Arsenios]

Into Adams death?
This means we are all born in sin.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered into the world) by sin;
so also death passed upon all men,
upon which (death) all have sinned:

Your argument is with Paul - We are all born laden with death...
It is upon this death with which we are laden...
That all have sinned...

I have yet to find an English translation that captures this passage...

Jesus gave up his life as an atoning sacrifice. No one took it from him.

He did indeed... He laid down His life and was received into Hades...

And he overcame death by His Own death in himself...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

...if perhaps one embraces water baptism as the means by which a human is saved. Of course that makes grace irrelevant.

That Apostolic Baptism IS the Grace God gives us through the hands of His Body, the Church...

You think it is men water baptizing, and for you, it very well may be...

Apostolic Baptism does not suffer your limitations...

Apostolic Baptism is Christ Baptizing you...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Your argument is with Paul - We are all born laden with death...
It is upon this death with which we are laden...
That all have sinned...

I have yet to find an English translation that captures this passage...



He did indeed... He laid down His life and was received into Hades...

And he overcame death by His Own death in himself...

Arsenios

Paul doesn't say "laden with death", however. That is your added commentary.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered into the world) by sin;
so also death passed upon all men,
upon which (death) all have sinned:
You are trying to tap dance around Paul when he declares that by one man sin entered the world.
It's similar to saying, by one virus all computers were infected so that even the new computers being made have the virus in them.
Humans, born as offspring of the first Adam, have the virus we call the sin nature. We're born with it. We don't have to do anything to acquire it. It's simply there because..."by one man sin entered into the world."

 

[MennoSota]

That Apostolic Baptism IS the Grace God gives us through the hands of His Body, the Church...

You think it is men water baptizing, and for you, it very well may be...

Apostolic Baptism does not suffer your limitations...

Apostolic Baptism is Christ Baptizing you...


Arsenios

You make up the term "Apostolic Baptism." It has literally NOTHING to do with grace. It has everything to do with you creating a fantasy baptism and a fantasy doctrine. Such non-biblical statements should be entirely rejected by the elect.
The limitation is your made-up fantasy that has nothing to do with God or with grace.

 

[Arsenios]

You make up the term "Apostolic Baptism." It has literally NOTHING to do with grace. It has everything to do with you creating a fantasy baptism and a fantasy doctrine. Such non-biblical statements should be entirely rejected by the elect.
The limitation is your made-up fantasy that has nothing to do with God or with grace.

Christ commissioned His Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Christ commissioned His Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...

Arsenios

To go to all nations and make disciples. You are missing the commissions function. Baptism comes after the person believes. Baptism does not cause the person to believe.
You preach a graceless gospel, Arsenios.