Antihistamines for works.

[user1234]

But are the passages you used, MoreCoffee, speaking to those who already have received the gospel and believed so that they may have eternal life? Or, as Josiah has pointed out to you in another thread are those passages speaking of the life of a Christian in sanctification? Not salvation. Taking scripture and trying to apply it without looking at the context is done by a lot of people which is why they stray from the Savior and get the idea in their head that they have to work or contribute or Jesus can't save them.

Hi Little Lamb ... GBU as always!
Much of that problem you mentioned seems to come from insistent religious teaching, with the pride of life as a subtle underlying factor.

Children get told certain things about obedience and being good, and how God is mad at them when they sin, and theres guilt and shame hung over their heads from the time they're little,

and for many, it's even part of their education, and whether they pass or fail in school, (so they better get it right), and this takes a deep hold and filters out into adult life, where performance and judgement combine with man's pride that says, ' I must DO this or that ' , either out of obedience/judgement/fear/condemnation, or pride/performance/achievement/reward.

Some of those things, in proper context with proper motivation, can be good and helpful in life.....It's good to be good, it's good to do good.
But when salvation and eternal life are the context, you can see how easily a works-based or 'works-mixed' religion seems to be the way.

And scriptures can be taken and pieced together to make it seem like God is demanding and approving this, it can be pretty convincing, but Romans 10:3-4 seems to apply here. Though Paul was addressing Israel there, it does apply in a broader sense to religionism in the church as well. (Phil. 3:9 cf)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Snerfle, are you allergic to good works in your theology of salvation. And do not say that you have no theology of salvation because theology means to speak well of God and that means that speaking well of God on the matter of human salvation is "theology of salvation".

 

[user1234]

Snerfle, are you allergic to good works in your theology of salvation. And do not say that you have no theology of salvation because theology means to speak well of God and that means that speaking well of God on the matter of human salvation is "theology of salvation".

Did you read the post above yours? What did I say about doing good? Read that part if you missed it.

But there is nothing .... No good works, that anyone can do in order to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We are saved, not because of Anything we do, we are saved because of what Jesus did FOR us.

When they asked, what must we DO that we might work the works of God, He replied, This is the work of God ... that you believe on Him that He hath sent. (Meaning, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ)
The question then, really, is, are you saved? Did Jesus save you?
If you were to die today, would you go instantly into His Kingdom, into His presence in heaven?

 

[Josiah]

Snerfle, are you allergic to good works in your theology of salvation. And do not say that you have no theology of salvation because theology means to speak well of God and that means that speaking well of God on the matter of human salvation is "theology of salvation".

MoreCoffee, my Catholic friend....


NO ONE (known to me) is "allergic" to good works or insists that good works are bad or irrelevant. Your whole premise is silly and absurd.

It's just Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus saves - which means self is not the Savior (in this sense of narrow justification): not now, not ever.... not in whole, not in part..... we believe that JESUS is the Savior. And thus in this context, it's JESUS' works that matter, that are critical, that are important, that we should focus on. They aren't irrelevant, Protestants aren't allergic to His works, His live, His death, His resurrection, His righteousness, His love, His obedence.... we are the ones who trust that.

Now, in sanctification - the life of CHRISTIANS (the justified), in the discipleship of CHRISTIANS (the justified), in the response of CHRISTIANS (the justified) - it's our works that matter (entirely empowered and inspired by Christ). No Protestant is allergic to the good works of Christians in sanctification, no Protestant insists perfect love and service and morality are irrelevant, nor is any allergic to such. We just don't substitute self for Christ, we just don't think we are the Savior of self. Nor do we do as you've done: throw the Law around condemning all others but exempting self from it.

I know this is a very disturbing thought for a Catholic, I know Catholics have a HUGE problem with the Protestant insistence that Jesus is the Savior and that it's HIS "stuff" that matters in justification (narrow) - you know, John 3:16, etc. Your denomination excommunicated Luther over this idea that Jesus is the Savior (and thus not self), so no one expects you to agree with that (it's anathama in your denomination). But your premise here is absurd. NO PROTESTANT believes that good works are bad or irrelevant or unnecessary.




Again....


I know of no Christian who is in any sense whatsoever "allergic" to good works. I just know Christians who believe in Christ as the Savior (rather than self) and thus look to Christ's works for justification (narrow) rather than those of self. NO ONE is remotely claiming works are unimportant - Protestants simply believe we are not to confuse our words with Christs. It's really not rocket science, it's just those who INSIST on making self as big as possible and Christ as little as possible will twist, confuse, blend, mix up, gum up, spin things into such a confusing (and often Hindu sounding) MESS.



In JUSTIFICATION (narrow) it's CHRIST's works that matter since Jesus is the Savior. Not self. Those who want to strip Jesus of that role (demoting him to just a possibility-maker or yet another helper) will do all they can to evade this or creatively spin it.


In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) - the lives of CHRISTIANS - it's OUR works that matter - empowered by God, inspired by love - as we progress in Christ-like-ness (but never achieving it).


Yes, works matter...... CHRIST'S in justification, OURS in sanctification. Simple....



The problem is, those who reject Christ as THE (one and only) Savior (the sufficient one) will need to confuse/mix/blend Law and Gospel, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification all to strip Christ of His role as Savior.... to lift up self rather than the Cross. It's simple... and obvious..... unless one's ego insists on twisting it horribly so as to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and glorious as possible - trying to spin Christianity so that it's like the other world religions (just with a largely irrelevant Christ put in there, for no particular reason).


Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did you read the post above yours? What did I say about doing good? Read that part if you missed it.

But there is nothing .... No good works, that anyone can do in order to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We are saved, not because of Anything we do, we are saved because of what Jesus did FOR us.

When they asked, what must we DO that we might work the works of God, He replied, This is the work of God ... that you believe on Him that He hath sent. (Meaning, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ)
The question then, really, is, are you saved? Did Jesus save you?
If you were to die today, would you go instantly into His Kingdom, into His presence in heaven?

No one earns salvation but everyone does good for salvation. You are mistaken to say We are saved, not because of Anything we do because surely believing is something that you do and one is saved by grace through faith. One needs belief doesn't one?

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee...NO ONE (known to me) is "allergic" to good works or insists that good works are bad or irrelevent. Your whole premise is silly and absurd.
...

You wrote Your whole premise is silly and absurd. However the absurdity is in the way you constantly misread what I write. I'd say it was accidental but for it being repeated over and over again. So it is either done in bad faith to perpetuate pointless arguments for no godly purpose or is it due to genuine inability to comprehend what is written. Which ever it is or if there is a third motive then whatever it is the point about being allergic to good works in one's theology is not that one will do no good works but that one completely avoids good works in the theology of salvation. I have recently stopped responding to your posts because they so often misrepresent what I write and what the Catholic Church teaches that it seemed like bad policy to reply. I am replying now only to set to rights your incorrect presentation. I doubt that it will do any good and I shall probably need to return to leaving your bad theology uncorrected. In any case Josiah my best advice for you is repent. Repent soon.

 

[Rens]

No one earns salvation but everyone does good for salvation. You are mistaken to say We are saved, not because of Anything we do because surely believing is something that you do and one is saved by grace through faith. One needs belief doesn't one?

but thats not a work.
It used to be. I was in this pentecostal church and if you believed really hard you got healed, if not, a pity, not enough faith. I always imagined God standing there with a hygrometer we had in the plants. Ah a pity, just not enough faith. Do better next time.
Oh my it drove me crazy. If its a work from yourself theres something wrong with it.
But I get what you say. You cant just lay on your divas and chill cause its just by faith. Faith without works is dead.

 

[MoreCoffee]

but thats not a work.
It used to be. I was in this pentecostal church and if you believed really hard you got healed, if not, a pity, not enough faith. I always imagined God standing there with a hygrometer we had in the plants. Ah a pity, just not enough faith. Do better next time.
Oh my it drove me crazy. If its a work from yourself theres something wrong with it.
But I get what you say. You cant just lay on your divas and chill cause its just by faith. Faith without works is dead.

I am sure that faith is something that people do dear sister Rens and if you want to pretend it isn't a good work then okay but I reckon it as a good work. By the way sister Rens, there is nothing good that you do or can do that is not a gift from God so nobody has "good works of their own". In fact nobody has works of any kind that are their own. Everybody lives and moves and has their being in God and everything that they do that's good is doing what God commands them to do and enables them to do.

 

[Cassia]

I am sure that faith is something that people do dear sister Rens and if you want to pretend it isn't a good work then okay but I reckon it as a good work. By the way sister Rens, there is nothing good that you do or can do that is not a gift from God so nobody has "good works of their own". In fact nobody has works of any kind that are their own. Everybody lives and moves and has their being in God and everything that they do that's good is doing what God commands them to do and enables them to do.

By good do you mean from the tree of good and evil? Now please don't just answer no and ignor the rest of my post as is your usual mo.

Or do you mean that which is better because that is what it's called in Hebrews. What is good naturally is still of the old creation and not functioning from God, the better than.

I don't believe that anything anyone does is profitable toward salvation. Rewards are the incentive given that catholics/Lutherans/Arminians are clueless of.
smh that they do not believe that He is a God that rewards.

What is reasonable service? It's doing the work that accomplishes the change. Freewill is there to embrace the change. But our good does not accomplish that. eos

 

[atpollard]

I am sure that faith is something that people do dear sister Rens and if you want to pretend it isn't a good work then okay but I reckon it as a good work. By the way sister Rens, there is nothing good that you do or can do that is not a gift from God so nobody has "good works of their own". In fact nobody has works of any kind that are their own. Everybody lives and moves and has their being in God and everything that they do that's good is doing what God commands them to do and enables them to do.

Ephesians 2:1-10
[NLT] 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.[fn] He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

[NIV] 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[NKJV] 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

[choose the translation that you prefer, or feel free to post your own.]



So just for the record, do you believe the Bible when it says that you were saved by grace and not by works?
Do you believe that we were created in Jesus Christ (that would be the 'new man' or post-salvation man) to do good works?
That taken together and believed, this makes works something we walk in after salvation and not before?

If you disagree, then please explain how something as clear as these ten verses in Ephesians really should be understood to mean exactly the opposite of what they say.

 

[MoreCoffee]

By good do you mean from the tree of good and evil? Now please don't just answer no and ignor the rest of my post as is your usual mo.

Usual mo?? I did it once and now it is usual? Come on, get real.

And no, it has nothing to do with the tree in Eden. Why would you think that it does? Good works are the good gifts that God gives to the faithful to do. Ephesians 2:10 says it. James explains it a little in James 1:17.

Or do you mean that which is better because that is what it's called in Hebrews. What is good naturally is still of the old creation and not functioning from God, the better than.

I don't believe that anything anyone does is profitable toward salvation. Rewards are the incentive given that catholics/Lutherans/Arminians are clueless of.
smh that they do not believe that He is a God that rewards.

What is reasonable service? It's doing the work that accomplishes the change. Freewill is there to embrace the change. But our good does not accomplish that. eos

 

[Rens]

I think a few centuries back the catholics were extreme with their good works, so then as a reaction you got the other extreme. Actually I think most here just agree, but have a different way of saying it. I can't imagine that the protestants here dont do any good work and insist on sinning.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. Ephesians 2:1-10 {NRSV}
[choose the translation that you prefer, or feel free to post your own.]

So just for the record, do you believe the Bible when it says that you were saved by grace and not [the result of] works?

Yes

Do you believe that we were created in Jesus Christ (that would be the 'new man' or post-salvation man) to do good works?

Yes

That taken together and believed, this makes works something we walk in after salvation and not before?

During salvation. Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfilment at the last judgement when the Lord declares to the faithful Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

If you disagree, then please explain how something as clear as these ten verses in Ephesians really should be understood to mean exactly the opposite of what they say.

Now that you've expressed your misgivings tell me straight what have I written that makes you think I believe or teach that people are saved by works and not by grace?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think a few centuries back the catholics were extreme with their good works, so then as a reaction you got the other extreme. Actually I think most here just agree, but have a different way of saying it. I can't imagine that the protestants here dont do any good work and insist on sinning.

Nope, a few centuries back, right around the time of the protestant revolt, Catholics taught that Christians are saved by grace through faith for good works - like Paul did.

 

[user1234]

but thats not a work.
It used to be. I was in this pentecostal church and if you believed really hard you got healed, if not, a pity, not enough faith. I always imagined God standing there with a hygrometer we had in the plants. Ah a pity, just not enough faith. Do better next time.
Oh my it drove me crazy. If its a work from yourself theres something wrong with it.
But I get what you say. You cant just lay on your divas and chill cause its just by faith. Faith without works is dead.

But even with that, beware of the temptation to mix works, ANY of our own works, with salvation. It's entirely a gift of God. It IS JUST BY FAITH, that's the whole point, and it's been missed and missapplied by religionists down thru the ages.

People want sooo bad to be able to say they contributed SOMEthing to their salvation, and they often seem to have good intentions by saying they want to cooperate with or be obedient to God, but they not only take it upon themselves, but put that burden on others as well.

We are saved by grace ...God's gift to us. Apart from any of our own works.
It's ALL HIS work, Jesus gets ALL the credit and the glory!
Any good works FOLLOWS being saved, and if a person is doing good works without being saved or in order to get saved, theyre missing the point.
Dangerously so.

We're saved by grace, thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... Who He is ... HIS works. That's the good news!!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Rejoice! :=D:

 

[user1234]

Nope, a few centuries back, right around the time of the protestant revolt, Catholics taught that Christians are saved by grace through faith for good works - like Paul did.

But thats a misconception ..... The bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone .... That is the good news .... The RC church doesnt teach that, and most RCs I know have a whole list of religious works that they believe they must keep IN ORDER TO be saved, and they believe their church/religion teaches them this.

So they think water-baptisms, communion wafers, confessions to a priest, penances and acts of contrition as dictated to them by the priests, Holy days of obligation, indulgences, prayers to mary or others, etc., Some or all being NECESSARY religious works, without which there is no salvation according to their religion.

Thats the difference between Biblical faith for salvation, and the religionists attempts to gain it. It's a free gift. Just take it and Praise the Lord Jesus Christ .... He loves you and wants you to have it. :=D:

 

[MoreCoffee]

But thats a misconception ..... The bible teaches that we are saved by grace alone

No, the holy scriptures teach no such thing. We are saved by grace yet grace is not alone it has faith and good works entangled in it. In fact grace is intended to produce faith and good works so the idea that it is alone is a misconception. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. [SUP]Ephesians 2:8-10[/SUP]

.... That is the good news .... The RC church doesnt teach that

It is evident from your statements that you haven't got a clue what the Catholic Church teaches and I haven't the patience to repeat the teaching again. You can check my posts and see for yourself what Catholics teach and believe. Don't believe the anti-catholic propaganda handed around by Protestant and Petntecostal preachers. If you are interested you can go to Catholic sources to see for yourself only make sure that you go to sources that really are Catholic and really are sanctioned by the Church. Looking around for personal opinions will only land you in more misconceptions about Catholic teaching.

, and most RCs I know have a whole list of religious works that they believe they must keep IN ORDER TO be saved, and they believe their church/religion teaches them this.

So they think water-baptisms, communion wafers, confessions to a priest, penances and acts of contrition as dictated to them by the priests, Holy days of obligation, indulgences, prayers to mary or others, etc., Some or all being NECESSARY religious works, without which there is no salvation according to their religion.

Thats the difference between Biblical faith for salvation, and the religionists attempts to gain it. It's a free gift. Just take it and Praise the Lord Jesus Christ .... He loves you and wants you to have it. :=D:

The rest of your post is only repeating hearsay that I don't believe is accurate anyway. But if you prefer hearsay and fables about Catholics to facts and truth okay. That's your business.

 

[user1234]

No, the holy scriptures teach no such thing. We are saved by grace yet grace is not alone it has faith and good works entangled in it. In fact grace is intended to produce faith and good works so the idea that it is alone is a misconception. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. [SUP]Ephesians 2:8-10[/SUP]

It is evident from your statements that you haven't got a clue what the Catholic Church teaches and I haven't the patience to repeat the teaching again. You can check my posts and see for yourself what Catholics teach and believe. Don't believe the anti-catholic propaganda handed around by Protestant and Petntecostal preachers. If you are interested you can go to Catholic sources to see for yourself only make sure that you go to sources that really are Catholic and really are sanctioned by the Church. Looking around for personal opinions will only land you in more misconceptions about Catholic teaching.

The rest of your post is only preeating hearsay that I don't believe is accurate anyway. But if you prefer hearsay and fables about Catholics to facts and truth okay. That's your business.

Family members and friends is not hearsay, along with my own research. One of the big debates 500 years ago is that the RCchurch was WITHOLDING salvation from ppl, not offering it freely by God's grace.
The standing of salvation by grace ALONE thru faith ALONE in Christ ALONE is not RC teaching and never has been.

Millions have been set free from the faith/works mixture of righteousness (which is actually not righteousness, but bondage) that the religionists have been promulgating for centuries, by the simple and profound biblical truth that Jesus saved us by His grace, it's a gift of God, not of ANY works of ours.

I once again offer it to you as I did in my other posts, and as all believers are called to do. Jesus loves you. If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you shall be saved, and you may begin praising Him that He saved you TODAY. That's the good news.
It's a gift from God, He wants you to have it. It's completely apart from any of yours or my works, good, bad, religious, or any other kind. It's a gift. Let us rejoice as friends and brothers in Christ and thank Him for His unspeakable gift. :=D:

 

[MoreCoffee]

snirfle, your account of history is wrong. It's propaganda not history.

 

[Rens]

But even with that, beware of the temptation to mix works, ANY of our own works, with salvation. It's entirely a gift of God. It IS JUST BY FAITH, that's the whole point, and it's been missed and missapplied by religionists down thru the ages.

People want sooo bad to be able to say they contributed SOMEthing to their salvation, and they often seem to have good intentions by saying they want to cooperate with or be obedient to God, but they not only take it upon themselves, but put that burden on others as well.

We are saved by grace ...God's gift to us. Apart from any of our own works.
It's ALL HIS work, Jesus gets ALL the credit and the glory!
Any good works FOLLOWS being saved, and if a person is doing good works without being saved or in order to get saved, theyre missing the point.
Dangerously so.

We're saved by grace, thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... Who He is ... HIS works. That's the good news!!! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Rejoice! :=D:

Yes I agree. There's the danger of contributing yourself, legalism, but if you go too far to the other side another extreme is lawlesness. I first heard 'do this do that youre never good enough' preachings in some sort of evangelical cult, but then we got OSAS in another church. Yaay! I didn't have to pray the sinner's prayer anymore every week if I did a sin. Nothing you did got you into the Kingdom. Nothing bad you do can get you out of it.
And it was great. Finally the condemnation was gone. Great. Yet it's not entirely true, 'cause a lot of people fall from their faith, 'cause they start to live in sin, like living together with someone. That's a choice, that's living in sin. Happens all the time here in evangelical churches. Work out your salvation with trembling and a lot of churches don't preach that anymore. Revelations, if you're lukewarm I spit you out of My mouth. Ehmmm... They say God sees you as perfect no matter what you do. Michael Brown said: oh so He saw those churches in Revelations as perfect as Jesus? Then why did He rebuke them?