Antihistamines for works.

[Rens]

I am wondering why you skipped what James said?

Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​

yes faith and works go together.
First work of faith is speaking.

 

[Rens]

Who is the "you" in your post?

We died with Christ so if 'I' do a good work it's not me anyway so what has ego got to do with it? That's to be kept dead.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Didn't the Jews make the object of their faith their works instead of Jesus the one who died on the cross and you're saying that an object of your faith is your works instead of your Savior? Works are a byproduct of faith but not an object of because we don't cling at all to our works, or at least as Christians we shouldn't because if we're working for something to earn a reward that means that it's not by faith since faith has the object of the Savior who worked for you. Do you trust in your works or do you trust in your savior for your salvation and if we're not talking about salvation then why did you bring it up in your first post? I don't think that anyone is uneasy about talking about works unless it's remotely hinted at that it is connected to salvation and in that case we should turn to the one who saves us and greet him with joy and peace and know that he will bring us to do the good works he plans.

Jews? What have they to do with James' letter?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doesn't matter cause you're dead anyway lol.

Shhhh! You're not supposed to say that to them

They're too busy proving how Christ centred THEIR religion is - and by implication how self centred everybody else's is. But I guess the teaching in Romans 6:1-14 gets bypasses like James 2:14-26 does.

 

[tango]

Antihistamines for works are a necessity in theological discussions because some folk appear to be allergic to good works in any theological discussion.

James says "faith without works is dead" and folk say "he really means that mere intellectual assent not faith". Or when he says "see, we are justified by works and not by faith alone" they say "he doesn't mean justification before God he really means justification before men". They say these things because they are dead scared of works playing any role in salvation and/or justification. In effect their theology made them allergic to good works.

I think the key thing is that we aren't saved by our good works, the good works are evidence that we are saved.

In some ways it's a bit like the hugely accomplished tightrope walker who asked the crowd if they thought he could cross the tightrope with a man on his shoulders. Everybody expressed their belief that of course he could do it, but when he pointed at one of them and said "ok, get on my shoulders" they weren't so sure. If we truly believe the message we preach our lives will show it. Words are cheap - it's easy to talk the talk but if our lives don't back the message we bring it does draw into question just how sincerely we believe the words we say.

 

[Rens]

Oh I finally found out what an antihistamine is, it's not an antioxidant. It's for allergic reactions hahahahahahahaha fabulous!

 

[Josiah]

I guess the teaching in Romans 6:1-14 gets bypasses like James 2:14-26 does.

Nope. It's just that we do not twist Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification, self and Christ in an effort to make self as big as possible and Christ as irrelevant as possible.


The Protestant position (thus you must protest it, I know) is that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the saving - in the issue of justification (narrow), it's HIS works that matter. YES. WORKS. MATTER. But in Justification (narrow) it's HIS works (thus He is the Savior), not ours (thus we are not the Savior). It ain't that complicated, my Catholic brother. It's just something that must be twisted, belittled, buried by those who want to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible so that self can be made as big, awesome, wonderful and important as possible, those who want to lift up self rather than the Cross, those who want more of self and thus less of Christ.


Now, change the subject to what Romans 6:1-14 and James 2:14-26 address - what CHRISTIANS are called to now do, the CHRISTIAN life (Sanctification - narrow) and yes, the issue becomes OUR works - empowered and inspired by God. YES. WORKS. MATTER. And for Christians, for those justified (narrow), these are OUR works - empowered and inspired by God, as we progress to be more Christ like, more like our Savior.


The passionate need to mix justification and sanctification (narrow senses), to mix the two, to confuse them, blend them, mix them up (so common among Catholics) has one purpose - the reduce Christ to near nothingness (just a possibility-maker, another helper) and magnify self to near divine glory who only needs Jesus to open the door and some help because self is so wonderful, so awesome, so big.... to make Christianity as much like the other religions as possible.... to destroy the chief point of the Christian religion: JESUS is the SAVIOR.



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh I finally found out what an antihistamine is, it's not an antioxidant. It's for allergic reactions hahahahahahahaha fabulous!

Yes, I liked the humour when I created the topic title

 

[Wilhemena]

Is this a thread about Christians doing works or doing works for salvation which I do not believe in? I am hoping for more clarity before I impose my not so subtle opinion on all of great believers and the posts herein do not offer me a clear guidance.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is this a thread about Christians doing works or doing works for salvation which I do not believe in? I am hoping for more clarity before I impose my not so subtle opinion on all of great believers and the posts herein do not offer me a clear guidance.

I wrote a reply elsewhere saying:

Not all of Luther's doctrine is believed by other Protestants but they all believe in salvation by grace through faith and not works.

I do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works, not now and not in the past but I do know ignorant people who teach something like it and of denominations and independent groups and semi-Christian sects that teach things that sound like it. The Catholic Church teaches - and always has taught - that salvation comes from God as an act of God's grace in Jesus Christ. Nobody will ever be saved by their own efforts but everybody who is called by God turns from their sins and walks with God according to the graces given to them by God and according to their desire to please God [SUP](Php 2:12-13)[/SUP].

So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts; For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure. Do all things without protests and arguments; So that you may be holy and gentle, children of God without sin in a twisted and foolish generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, Offering the word of life; so that I may have glory in you in the day of Christ, because my running was not for nothing and my work was not without effect. And even if I am offered like a drink offering, giving myself for the cause and work of your faith, I am glad and have joy with you all: And in the same way do you be glad and have a part in my joy. [SUP]Philippians 2:12-18[/SUP]​

Some people (not me) appear to be allergic to good works in their theology and write as if good works are some horrible curse that contaminates the gospel when the truth is that Christians are called to a life of good works in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ [SUP](John 14:15; 15:10)[/SUP]. I guess some kinds of theology makes them write that way and makes them oppose every expression of faith that includes the necessity of good works in the life of the faithful who will obtain salvation through faith and good works as James says in his letter

"What use is it, my brothers, for a man to say that he has faith, if he does nothing? will such a faith give him salvation? If a brother or a sister is without clothing and in need of the day's food, And one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warm and full of food; but you do not give them the things of which their bodies have need, what profit is there in this? Even so faith without works is dead. But a man may say, You have faith and I have works; let me see your faith without your works, and I will make my faith clear to you by my works. You have the belief that God is one, and you do well: the evil spirits have the same belief, shaking with fear. Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use? Was not the righteousness of Abraham our father judged by his works, when he made an offering of Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was helping his works and was made complete by them; And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and he was named the friend of God. You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only. And in the same way, was not the righteousness of Rahab, the loose woman, judged by her works, when she took into her house those who were sent and let them go out by another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead. [SUP]James 2:14-26[/SUP]"​

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent it's written that

"Justifying Grace

But the grace of justification, which signs us with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,' transcends all His other most ample gifts. It unites us to God in the closest bonds of love, lights up within us the sacred flame of piety, forms us to newness of life, renders us partakers of the divine nature, and enables us to be called and really to be the sons of God."

...

"All The Sacraments Signify Something Present, Something Past, Something Future:

This applies to all the Sacraments; for all of them declare not only our sanctity and justification, but also two other things most intimately connected with sanctification, namely, the Passion of Christ our Redeemer, which is the source of our sanctification, and also eternal life and heavenly bliss, which are the end of sanctification. Such, then, being the nature of all the Sacraments, holy Doctors justly hold that each of them has a threefold significance: they remind us of something past; they indicate and point out something present; they foretell something future.

Nor should it be supposed that this teaching of the Doctors is unsupported by the testimony of Holy Scripture. When the Apostle says: All we who are baptised in Christ Jesus, are baptised in his death, he gives us clearly to understand that Baptism is called a sign, because it reminds us of the death and Passion of our Lord. When he says, We are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so, we also may walk in newness of life, he also clearly shows that Baptism is a sign which indicates the infusion of divine grace into our souls, which enables us to lead a new life and to perform all the duties of true piety with ease and cheerfulness. Finally, when he adds: If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection, he teaches that Baptism clearly foreshadows eternal life also, which we are to reach through its efficacy."​

These things were written soon after the beginning of the Protestant revolt and are drawn from Catholic Church teaching that had already existed for many centuries yet the Protesters did not want any part of the Catholic Church and created their own denominations which soon found themselves splitting into yet more denominations. Today there are many Lutheran denominations and many Calvinist denominations each with their own special emphases on this and that part of Martin Luther's teaching and John Calvin's teaching and some created new ideas never expressed by Martin Luther or John Calvin. And there are Baptists who didn't like a great number of the things taught by Martin Luther nor did they like a good number of the teachings of John Calvin. Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Anglicans, Independents, and a host of others exist now; some rejecting this teaching while others reject that teaching in the overall teaching of Martin Luther and the teachings of John Calvin. It may have been inevitable that the Catholic Church would be rent apart by schisms and heresies in the sixteenth century, and who can say what may have happened had it not been so? The Catholic Church of that time was itself troubled by some corrupt bishops and some corrupt priests both groups having some members appointed by wealthy and powerful people whose used political and military power to impose their will on the Church in their jurisdiction and some very senior clerics - yes even as senior as some of the popes of those days - were corrupt too. So we have a divided Christianity today in which old battles - long since repudiated by the Catholic Church and also by some (or many) Protestant denominations - are still fought in the pages of internet forums and in other places (such as books, comics and pamphlets).​

 

[atpollard]

I believe that most of the people who complain about good works try to do them but they cannot give them any place in their theory of salvation because they think it is by faith alone without works of any kind. They try to do good works but they make a way of escape by proclaiming that they do not play any role in salvation. It's part of their theological tradition.

I can't speak for 'most people', but for me it has nothing to do with theological tradition and everything to do with all those verses where scripture unambiguously says that our salvation and justification is not by works.

(The Catholic Bible does have the book of Romans in it, right?) :wave: [It was just a joke].

Romans 5:1-11
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

So where in this does our good works fit in? It sure sounds to me like Jesus works are what counted ... I mean, how much 'good works' do God's enemies usually do? It says we were God's enemies when we received reconciliation. Then just in case that was not clear enough, we have this:


Ephesians 2:1-10
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice in verse 10 that we are created in Christ to do good works, but we are clearly not saved by OUR good works ... which actually makes perfect sense since we were spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and enemies of God (Romans 5:10), so asking for a lot of good works from us at that point seems over optimistic.

 

[atpollard]

Antihistamines for works are a necessity in theological discussions because some folk appear to be allergic to good works in any theological discussion.

James says "faith without works is dead" and folk say "he really means that mere intellectual assent not faith". Or when he says "see, we are justified by works and not by faith alone" they say "he doesn't mean justification before God he really means justification before men". They say these things because they are dead scared of works playing any role in salvation and/or justification. In effect their theology made them allergic to good works.

Could you define "salvation" cause I'm having a heck of a time following you. One moment you seem to post that no church teaches salvation based on works, and then in another you post that Abraham was 'justified' by his works.

Color me confused.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Could you define "salvation" cause I'm having a heck of a time following you. One moment you seem to post that no church teaches salvation based on works, and then in another you post that Abraham was 'justified' by his works.

Color me confused.

Can't say I blame you for the confusion. What do you think "salvation" means?

A Catholic perspective is this:

Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be as prudent as serpents and as simple as doves. But beware of men. For they will hand you over to councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. And you shall be led before both rulers and kings for my sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not choose to think about how or what to speak. For what to speak shall be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who will be speaking, but the Spirit of your Father, who will speak in you. And brother will hand over brother to death, and father will hand over son. And children will rise up against parents and bring about their deaths. And you will be hated by all for the sake of my name. But whoever will have persevered, even to the end, the same shall be saved. Now when they persecute you in one city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you will not have exhausted all the cities of Israel, before the Son of man returns. The disciple is not above the teacher, nor is the servant above his master. It is sufficient for the disciple that he be like his teacher, and the servant, like his master. If they have called the Father of the family, "Beelzebub," how much more those of his household?[SUP] Matthew 10:16-25[/SUP]​

My apologies for the long definition that follows. If you have the fortitude to read it then the question you asked is answered.

σώζω
sṓzō; fut. sṓsō, aor. pass. esṓthēn, perf. pass. sésōsmai, from sṓs (n.f.), safe, delivered. To save, deliver, make whole, preserve safe from danger, loss, destruction. Trans.:

Sṓzō occurs fifty-four times in the Gospels (not counting Luk 17:33 where zōogonḗsei [G2225], to rescue from death, is a better attested reading than sṓsei of the TR; nor Mat 18:11, omitted in some MSS). Of the instances where sṓzō is used, fourteen relate to deliverance from disease or demon possession (Mat 9:21-22; Mar 3:4; Mar 5:23, Mar 5:28, Mar 5:34; Mar 6:56; Mar 10:52; Luk 6:9; Luk 8:36, Luk 8:48, Luk 8:50; Luk 17:19; Luk 18:42; Joh 11:12); in twenty instances, the inference is to the rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death (Mat 8:25; Mat 14:30; Mat 16:25; Mat 27:40, Mat 27:42, Mat 27:49; Mar 8:35; Mar 15:30-31; Luk 9:24, Luk 9:56; Luk 23:35, Luk 23:37, Luk 23:39; Joh 12:27); the remaining twenty times, the reference is to spiritual salvation (Mat 1:21; Mat 10:22; Mat 19:25; Mat 24:13, Mat 24:22; Mar 8:35; Mar 10:26; Mar 13:13, Mar 13:20; Mar 16:16; Luk 7:50; Luk 8:12; Luk 9:24; Luk 13:23; Luk 18:26; Luk 19:10; Joh 3:17; Joh 5:34; Joh 10:9; Joh 12:47).​

• Used particularly of persons ...
  
• Of sick persons, to save from death ...
  
• Specifically of salvation from eternal death, sin, and the punishment and misery consequent to sin. To save, and (by implication), to give eternal life. Especially of Christ as the Savior, followed by apó (G575), with the gen. (Mat 1:21; Act 2:40; Rom 5:9). Of the Lord, to bring someone safely into His kingdom (2Ti 4:18). Generally (Mat 18:11, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost"; Rom 11:14; 1Co 1:21; 1Ti 4:16; Heb 7:25; Jas 1:21). With ek (G1537), out of or from death (thanátou, the gen. of thánatos [G2288]; Jas 5:20). In the pass. (Mat 10:22, "he . . . shall be saved"; Mat 19:25; Mat 24:13; Mar 10:26; Mar 13:13; Mar 16:16; Luk 8:12; Luk 13:23; Joh 5:34; Joh 10:9; Rom 5:10; 1Co 5:5; 1Ti 2:15). Hence as a part., hoi sōzómenoi, those being saved, those who have obtained salvation through Christ and are kept by Him (Act 2:47; 1Co 1:18; 2Co 2:15; Rev 21:24).
  
• The basic meaning of the verb sṓzō is to rescue from peril, to protect, keep alive. Sṓzō involves the preservation of life, either physical or spiritual. Whenever the word sṓzō and its deriv. such as sōtēría (G4991), salvation, sōtḗr (G4990), savior, and the adj. sōtḗrion (G4992), salvation, are used, the context must be considered to determine whether the preservation of physical life (deliverance from physical death, sickness or peril) or spiritual life (deliverance from sin, Satan and hell) is in view.
  
• Salvation of the soul is deliverance from death unto life through Christ (Joh 6:56; Joh 14:20; Rom 16:7, Rom 16:11; 1Co 1:30; 1Co 9:1-2; 2Co 5:17; Eph 2:13) The believing sinner receives the spiritual life of a new nature from God (2Pe 1:4) and is freed from the power of sin (spiritual death) while having to endure its presence until the resurrection. Deliverance of the body will occur at the resurrection when a entire creation will also be renovated (Rom 8:21-23).
  
  To be saved means to be found. This is the reason why our Lord names tó apolōlós (neut. perf. part. of apóllumi [G622], to lose), the lost one, as the object of His saving activity (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Mat 18:12-14; Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6, Luk 15:8, Luk 15:24; Luk 19:10). From the figures used, it appears that the Gr. apóllumi has in this connection the sense of to miss or be missing, not primarily the sense of destroy or be destroyed. In the parables of Luk 15:1-24, the lost are like sheep gone astray upon the mountains, like the coin slipped out of the hand of the owner and like the prodigal who has left the father's home. A lost condition means estrangement from God, an absence of all the religious, spiritual, and moral relations man is designed to sustain toward his Maker. This lost condition is designated death, for it is the absence of true life (Mat 8:22; Luk 20:38). The salvation of the lost, therefore, is salvation from spiritual death.
  
  ...
  
• As the second death (Rev 20:6, Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8) is essentially an extension and complete experience of present spiritual death, so the resurrection unto life is most essentially an extension and complete experience of present spiritual life. Consequently, future salvation and condemnation are not separate from present salvation and condemnation. The distinction is one if time and not kind. While God's salvation is one whole work, it does take place in stages. One must determine which aspect of salvation (inaugurated or consummated) is in view in any context. The salvation of Luk 7:50, "Thy faith hath saved thee," which Jesus said to the woman who anointed Him, and that of Luk 19:9, of Zacchaeus, "This day is salvation come to this house," and that of Luk 19:10, "The Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost," must belong to the present time of our Lord's earthly ministry. Also, in Joh 12:47, the saving of the world (for which Jesus declares he had come) is a present salvation. In Mat 1:21, since the sins of the people are the evil from which Jesus saves, salvation must be viewed as being present salvation. In other passages, the eschatological context of salvation is equally obvious (as in Mat 10:22; Mat 24:13, "He that endureth to the end shall be saved"). Mat 16:25; Mar 8:35 and Luk 9:24 speak of the finding or saving of life in the future judgment as conditioned by the willingness to sacrifice one's life here. One must not misconstrue this as teaching a kind of synergism. Rather, true faith, which alone brings salvation, bears the fruit of loyalty and love. Therefore the evidence of saving faith is the willingness to sacrifice one's life for Christ. One may thus refer to the cause of salvation, faith, by speaking of its effect, faithfulness.
  
• The context underlying the question of the disciples recorded in Mat 19:25; Mar 10:26 and Luk 18:26, "Then who can be saved?" is eschatological. The question was called forth by the Lord Jesus' declaration that the rich would enter into the kingdom of God with great difficulty, which was in turn brought about by the question of the rich young man, "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" "To be saved" means "to enter the kingdom" which means "to inherit eternal life." The qualification of life as eternal, as well as the further context of Peter's question about future rewards and our Lord's answer to it, proved that the whole discussion is eschatological in its scope (Mat 24:22; Mar 13:20, "Except these days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved" [a.t.]. This statement is best understood as follows: the temptation in these last times will be so severe, that, if their duration had not been kept within certain limits, all men, even the elect, would have fallen away, and so no flesh would have been ultimately saved in the day of judgment).
  
• In the remainder of the passages, it is difficult to say with certainty whether salvation is future or present. For Mat 18:11 (TR) the reference to the present is supported by Luk 19:10. In Luk 8:12, "lest they should believe and be saved," the eschatological sense would be quite plausible. But the other view may be preferred by the fact that the parables concern the present invisible aspect of the kingdom. In some instances, salvation in its entirety is meant (Luk 13:23, ". . . are there few that be saved.")
  
• In John's Gospel (Joh 3:16-17; Joh 4:22; Joh 5:34; Joh 10:9), sṓzō is used in connection with life to mean eternal life. ...

 

[atpollard]

Can't say I blame you for the confusion. What do you think "salvation" means?

Briefly touched on in post 31 (where the focus was on works not being part of salvation, but the fruit of salvation).

A Catholic perspective is this:

Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be as prudent as serpents and as simple as doves. But beware of men. For they will hand you over to councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. And you shall be led before both rulers and kings for my sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not choose to think about how or what to speak. For what to speak shall be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who will be speaking, but the Spirit of your Father, who will speak in you. And brother will hand over brother to death, and father will hand over son. And children will rise up against parents and bring about their deaths. And you will be hated by all for the sake of my name. But whoever will have persevered, even to the end, the same shall be saved. Now when they persecute you in one city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you will not have exhausted all the cities of Israel, before the Son of man returns. The disciple is not above the teacher, nor is the servant above his master. It is sufficient for the disciple that he be like his teacher, and the servant, like his master. If they have called the Father of the family, "Beelzebub," how much more those of his household?[SUP] Matthew 10:16-25[/SUP]​

From the part you underlined and your statement about James and Abraham, would it be correct to conclude that a Catholic has no promise of eternal security? You are one 'not persevering' away from damnation. (That would seem to be the inescapable conclusion from what you have posted.)

My apologies for the long definition that follows. If you have the fortitude to read it then the question you asked is answered.

σώζω
sṓzō; fut. sṓsō, aor. pass. esṓthēn, perf. pass. sésōsmai, from sṓs (n.f.), safe, delivered. To save, deliver, make whole, preserve safe from danger, loss, destruction. Trans.:

Sṓzō occurs fifty-four times in the Gospels (not counting Luk 17:33 where zōogonḗsei [G2225], to rescue from death, is a better attested reading than sṓsei of the TR; nor Mat 18:11, omitted in some MSS). Of the instances where sṓzō is used, fourteen relate to deliverance from disease or demon possession (Mat 9:21-22; Mar 3:4; Mar 5:23, Mar 5:28, Mar 5:34; Mar 6:56; Mar 10:52; Luk 6:9; Luk 8:36, Luk 8:48, Luk 8:50; Luk 17:19; Luk 18:42; Joh 11:12); in twenty instances, the inference is to the rescue of physical life from some impending peril or instant death (Mat 8:25; Mat 14:30; Mat 16:25; Mat 27:40, Mat 27:42, Mat 27:49; Mar 8:35; Mar 15:30-31; Luk 9:24, Luk 9:56; Luk 23:35, Luk 23:37, Luk 23:39; Joh 12:27); the remaining twenty times, the reference is to spiritual salvation (Mat 1:21; Mat 10:22; Mat 19:25; Mat 24:13, Mat 24:22; Mar 8:35; Mar 10:26; Mar 13:13, Mar 13:20; Mar 16:16; Luk 7:50; Luk 8:12; Luk 9:24; Luk 13:23; Luk 18:26; Luk 19:10; Joh 3:17; Joh 5:34; Joh 10:9; Joh 12:47).​

[post shortened because of word count limit in post]

My only question with this is "How does Abraham's obedience relate? How is Abraham's good works a requirement in any of this definition? How is my good work a requirement in any of this definition?"
(I admit that I read all of the text, but did not look up every verse, so sorry if I missed it.)

As a side note, please do not think that I am avoiding answering your questions (well, in a sense, I am, but no malice is intended). I am trying REALLY hard to understand the details of Catholic sotierology and keep tripping over what I perceive as contradictions. My challenges are not to oppose your position (as a Calvinist, I believe in Monergism, so God does all of the changing of hearts, it is not me job to correct anyone. I just give an honest answer to an honest question and leave it to the Holy Spirit to convict people of the truth.). My challenges are to understand your views more clearly. I point out the obvious so you can correct my misunderstanding from semantic errors. I will gladly present, discuss and even defend Reformed Theology (aka. Calvinism) from the position of a Reformed Baptist (my theological background). However, I already know most of the accusations and charictures that someone or other will eventually raise, so I would prefer not to derail this thread by getting into that here. That is the only reason I am slow to respond to your questions on how I define saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

atpollard. Here is what Catholics believe and teach about salvation in relation to eternal life.

Everything that people have is a gift from God so there is no "by my own effort" element in salvation because nothing good can ever be done "by my own efforts" [SUP](see Acts 17:28; Luke 17:7-10)[/SUP]

Salvation is entirely of grace, God's grace towards his people. [SUP](See Ephesians 2:8-9)[/SUP]

God's graces work goodness in his people meaning that his people do good by means of his grace; they are not passive but active co-workers with Christ. [SUP](see Mark 16:20; 2Cor 9:8; 1Cor 3:9-10)[/SUP]

God calls the faithful to persevering in the faith and in the good works that he gives (by grace) for them to do and those who turn back from the faith and away from God's good work risk condemnation. [SUP](see Matt 10:22; 2Peter 2:20-22)[/SUP]

Therefore the holy scriptures repeatedly give warning to the faithful not to turn back to their former ways and away from the living God [SUP](see Hebrews 3:12)[/SUP].

For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences. For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. [SUP]Hebrews 6:4-7[/SUP]​

If you want to look up the verses I have cited then there is an easy way to do it - hover your mouse pointer over the verse (if it shows in blue text) and the verse will be displayed in a text-bubble.

I do not want to get into an endless - and fruitless - debate about which comes first (grace or works produced by grace) because it ought to be obvious that grace comes before the response to it and since good works are a godly response to God's grace it is abundantly clear that God's grace comes first. Nor do I wish to debate about some narrow or some wide meaning for justification because it is sufficient for me that "Abraham [was] justified by means of works" and that "faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment" [SUP]James 2:21-22[/SUP]. Since both Abraham's faith and his works are responses to God's grace debates about what causes what are moot. Nevertheless one cannot walk away from the holy scriptures without forming the notion that grace produces good works in those who are of the faith and that faith without works is dead.

PS: the 'works" in which people seek to glory as their own works are works that they imagine will be pleasing to God. For the Jews of Jesus' time they imagined that strict obedience to the Law's details would please God even if they observed what was external while internally they were full of greed, envy, and malice. In our time some seek works of their own making as a means of pleasing God but like the Jews of Jesus' time external observance without inner conversion are of no use in pleasing God. So keeping Sabbath, doing one's Sunday obligation, saying many prayers, kneeling, genuflecting, reading holy books will profit nothing to the one who does these things without genuine faith and true conversion of heart and mind resulting in godly works.

 

[atpollard]

MoreCoffee, that is 99% in agreement with Calvinism. The only point that Calvinism would have any disagreement on in what you posted is that a Calvinist would believe that having been granted a new heart (nature) and sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is not possible for one of God's sheep (chosen, elect) to turn back to their former ways. We would agree with John that they went out from among us because they were never truly one of us. Tares sown among the wheat and wolves in sheeps clothing and goats to be seperated from the sheep.

With respect to the 'hover over the verse', unfortunately it does not work on an iPAD. I use that when at a desktop computer, though.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee, that is 99% in agreement with Calvinism. The only point that Calvinism would have any disagreement on in what you posted is that a Calvinist would believe that having been granted a new heart (nature) and sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is not possible for one of God's sheep (chosen, elect) to turn back to their former ways. We would agree with John that they went out from among us because they were never truly one of us. Tares sown among the wheat and wolves in sheeps clothing and goats to be seperated from the sheep.

With respect to the 'hover over the verse', unfortunately it does not work on an iPAD. I use that when at a desktop computer, though.

I've heard Calvinist teaching before. I was an elder in a Presbyterian church - a rather evangelical/conservative one. I don't see much that is worth debate in trying to dissect somebody's claim to faith to the point where one claims that if they have no convincing faith now then they never had it before. I take Hebrews 6:1-12 at face value. People can taste the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come and yet fall away from the faith. What's in their hearts and what was in their hearts is not visible to me. The observation that "it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt." is sufficient for me. There's no need to delve into things that I do not know and cannot see. The words in holy scripture are enough to hear the warning heed it and avoid the wickedness it warns against.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Always so strange that when it's pointed out that scripture calls us to get off our backsides it becomes an "I don't need to work to be saved" issue, or "It's not me, it's God" issue, when these aren't the issues. Why Christians are so averse to the working out of the Christian life is beyond me. Work, and give glory to God in obedience. I can't recall ever being in a church meeting where a conversation was taking place about missions, or supporting a certain need in the community,and things suddenly turned to "yes, but who get's the glory? Is it us doing the work, or God?" It just doesn't happen. The work gets done out of thankfulness to God.

But, I suppose, Jame's book will be a thorn in the side of some for eons to come.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Always so strange that when it's pointed out that scripture calls us to get off our backsides it becomes an "I don't need to work to be saved" issue, or "It's not me, it's God" issue, when these aren't the issues. Why Christians are so averse to the working out of the Christian life is beyond me. Work, and give glory to God in obedience.

That is why we need antihistamines for works because so many appear to be allergic to them.

 

[Lamb]

That is why we need antihistamines for works because so many appear to be allergic to them.

None of us can ever do enough works. Is this a contest to see if a Christian can one up the others in the amount of works? We don't look at our works, we look at our Savior and because we love him, we want to do works that helps our neighbors!