It is interesting to see Albion's take on what the "Church of England" is and when he alleged it came into being.
MennoSota doesn't accept Albion's view.
Josiah doesn't accept Albion's view either.
I think Albion is playing with words. There was a church in England fairly early. It was Catholic and "Roman" but it had influences from the Irish after the Roman Empire fell and it developed its own liturgical tradition which was different from the liturgical forms in use in mainland western Europe. Later the English liturgy was brought into a degree of conformity with the Liturgy as it existed in parts of France and other places in Europe. All of these things happened while the English Church was Catholic and "Roman".
The church came into being when faith in the Messiah did.... Although traditionally, Christians often trace this back to Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was "poured out". So, the church catholic is some 2000 years old: the one, holy, catholic, communion of saints - the community of ALL believers, ALL who were given the divine gift of faith/Holy Spirit/Justification, ALL the Children of God, ALL the Body of Christ, spread out over all the centuries and all the continents (including Pope Frances, Martin Luther, Jon Hus, Billy Graham, me, you). THAT church is huge and old. THAT church is one and holy. THAT church was founded by Christ who is still its Lord.
Dating the establishment of DENOMINATIONS (especially early ones) isn't always easy. We can at least give a year to the founding of the Roman Church (to which most denominations today are descendants) , the Caesar did that early in the 4th century. But when did the EO and CC become separate denominations (pointing to 1054 may be too technical - they hadn't been functioning as one denomination for CENTURIES before that). We can date the technically when the RCC split itself in 1521 but that's not really the birth of the Lutheran faith community (no Lutheran denomination dates itself to that, they all date it to later than that). The denomination my parish belongs to dates its founding to 1847.
There are a FEW denominations that have a strong felt NEED to essentially equate the church with it itself (uniquely, singularly, individually, institutionally). This is because they feel that this gives their enormous, unmitigated desire to "lord it over others as the gentiles do" and to be unaccountable will have some credence if it itself = the church (even Christ Himself). There are two primary, large denominations that do the: the RCC and LDS. But there are some additional tiny ones that do this, too. All found their claims of essentially being God on Earth - authoritative, infallible, unaccountable; with all needing to be docilicly submissive to it as unto God - upon this (entirely incredible) claim.
Parishes (and any possible denominations of them) are the result of MAN (albeit surely all believe God so desires and empowers ); and they MAY have a technical, date-able starting point (and may not). But of course, the church always is here... wherever faith is. There are millions of parishes, and thousands of denominations of them, but there is ONE holy, catholic, community of believers... there IS one Lord, one faith, one baptism.... we ARE brothers and sisters in Christ. No human can change that - no matter how many parishes are founded, how many denominations are started.
The Anglican Communion has always been diverse and embracing (it was founded as such). It is a unique blend of Catholicism, Lutheranism and Calvinism. And we can find quite a range of beliefs and practices within her (all embraced. Historically, I have a LOT of esteem for this faith community.
Josiah doesn't accept Albion's view either.
Well, Albion has a point....
I think there is solid historical proof that the church existed in England, Wales and Ireland before the Roman Church (the denomination the Empire invented) did anything there. There were Christians and parishes of them before the RC denomination was even begun. In that sense, the church in England is older than the Roman Church and existed before the Roman Church did anything there.
The Roman Church NEVER embraced all Christian parishes - there were churches (especially on the fringes of the Empire and of course by definition beyond the Empire) that were not in any sense part of the Roman denomination. There were Celtic churches, churches in India and even perhaps China, churches in Ethiopia, etc., etc., etc.... the "Catholic Church" has never, ever been catholic but rather a denomination of SOME churches - a fine denomination but a denomination. BTW, the Anglican Church has never been universal in England either. It is the "Church of England" but there have always been churches that pre-date all that by centuries and churches not ever a part of the Anglican Communion (including some Catholic and Lutheran ones).
Yes, eventually, the parishes in England (and later in Scotland and still later in Ireland) came under the thumb of the Roman Church. I don't think Albion has denied that. Perhaps he is simply stating a historical fact: the church existed there long before the Roman Church did anything there, before that denomination was even founded. That's seems undeniable to me.
- Josiah
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