All About Faith

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MoreCoffee

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Re-Read this whole thread and you'll see the constant back and forth about the central doctrine of the Christian faith, which is justification. It's been said that if you don't understand how justification works, it will affect how you understand every other doctrine of the Christian faith.

Lammchen said this to you:

"He gave you the verses you requested. You are also not understanding what he wrote since you suggest he said that it is stealing to get faith. He did not say that so you are not paying attention."

When you replied with this:

"I definitely am paying attention. You both don't understand then. No wonder he doesn't deal with anything I said in the my posts. He just posts scriptures that I have already shown to be wrong. People cannot make up in their own words what they want the scriptures to say."

There are no Scriptures that are wrong. To say that there are Scriptures that are wrong is to say God is wrong and to say you've proven that God is wrong, is to place yourself as both judge of God and above God.

If I were in this conversation, this is the reply that would cause me to stop talking with you as your statement is blasphemous and you have demonstrated you are one who both can not and will not be taught by others who do know what they are talking about.

I am sure that Dr Martin Luther, evidently the founder of the group of denominations to which you belong, invented a passage of holy scripture by adding at least one word to it; the word he added was "alone" and the invented scripture became part of the five slogans of the Protestant revolt. Something about faith alone I am told. Mind you, the phrase "faith alone" does occur one time in the holy scriptures. It is in the verse that tells Christians that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone", but Dr Luther didn't much care for the letter which contained the phrase that he was, in other circumstances, so enamoured of.

:smirk:
 

MennoSota

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Nowhere anywhere does Jesus say no one can believe and obey unless he saves them first.

That is to go against obeying God.
If a person could believe and obey without God's work of renewal, God would not be needed. You could stand justified before God on your own merit. Jesus would never have needed to become the curse for us so that we might inherit the blessings of adopted sonship.
God must do His work or we die in our sinful attempt to gain salvation by our own self-righteousness.
Brother, you are far from the cross as you run after your own salvation. Let go of your self. Be crucified with Christ tonight, on Good Friday, so that Christ's life might be lived by faith alone. (Galatians 2:20)
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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I am sure that Dr Martin Luther, evidently the founder of the group of denominations to which you belong, invented a passage of holy scripture by adding at least one word to it; the word he added was "alone" and the invented scripture became part of the five slogans of the Protestant revolt. Something about faith alone I am told. Mind you, the phrase "faith alone" does occur one time in the holy scriptures. It is in the verse that tells Christians that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone", but Dr Luther didn't much care for the letter which contained the phrase that he was, in other circumstances, so enamoured of.

:smirk:
You're welcome.
 

MoreCoffee

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Biblical wisdom and sound doctrine are often desperately needed!

Perhaps you can contribute? But I warn you, it often IS exhausting.

What is even more exhausting is glancing over the posts wherein you quote your own posts and then post them over and over until one wonders if it is on a vinyl record with a groove scratch that causes it to repeat!

:p

By the way, just as a reminder, faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. God told me that. Surely it answers the original post's question.
 
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MennoSota

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I am sure that Dr Martin Luther, evidently the founder of the group of denominations to which you belong, invented a passage of holy scripture by adding at least one word to it; the word he added was "alone" and the invented scripture became part of the five slogans of the Protestant revolt. Something about faith alone I am told. Mind you, the phrase "faith alone" does occur one time in the holy scriptures. It is in the verse that tells Christians that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone", but Dr Luther didn't much care for the letter which contained the phrase that he was, in other circumstances, so enamoured of.

:smirk:
He says, “Here in*it,” in the gospel, “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, ‘the just shall live by faith.’” A verse taken from the book of Habakkuk in the Old Testament that is cited three times in the New Testament. As Luther would stop short and say, “What does this mean, that there’s this righteousness that is by faith, and from faith to faith? What does it mean that the righteous shall live by faith?” Which again as I said was the thematic verse for the whole exposition of the gospel that Paul sets forth here in the book of Romans. And so, the lights came on for Luther. And he began to understand that what Paul was speaking of here was a righteousness that God in His grace was making available to those who would receive it passively, not those who would achieve it actively, but that would receive it by faith, and by which a person could be reconciled to a holy and righteous*God.

Now there was a linguistic trick that was going on here too. And it was this, that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was—and it’s the word from which we get the English word*justification—the Latin word*justificare. And it came from the Roman judicial system. And the term*justificare*is made up of the word*justus, which is justice or righteousness, and the verb, the infinitive*facare, which means to make. And so, the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God, through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere, make unrighteous people*righteous.

But Luther was looking now at the Greek word that was in the New Testament, not the Latin word. The word*dikaios,*dikaiosune, which didn’t mean to make righteous, but rather to*regard*as righteous, to*count*as righteous, to*declare*as righteous. And this was the moment of awakening for Luther. He said, “You mean, here Paul is not talking about the righteousness by which God Himself is righteous, but a righteousness that God gives freely by His grace to people who don’t have righteousness of their*own.”

And so Luther said, “Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?” It’s what he called a*justitia alienum, an alien righteousness; a righteousness that belongs properly to somebody else. It’s a righteousness that is*extra nos, outside of us. Namely, the righteousness of Christ. And Luther said, “When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked*through.”

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/justification-faith-alone-martin-luther-and-romans-117/

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
 

YourTruthGod

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If a person could believe and obey without God's work of renewal, God would not be needed. You could stand justified before God on your own merit. Jesus would never have needed to become the curse for us so that we might inherit the blessings of adopted sonship.
God must do His work or we die in our sinful attempt to gain salvation by our own self-righteousness.
Brother, you are far from the cross as you run after your own salvation. Let go of your self. Be crucified with Christ tonight, on Good Friday, so that Christ's life might be lived by faith alone. (Galatians 2:20)

Jesus came and if he didn't come to die for us you wouldn't get cleaned and have the Holy Spirit to live in you.

You have to come to Jesus in obedience and faith.

That is what he says.
 

Albion

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By the way, just as a reminder, faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. God told me that.

Josiah can speak for himself, but I'm not taking anything from somebody who has moved from one church to another to another to another...and now thinks he's a prophet!
 

MennoSota

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Jesus came and if he didn't come to die for us you wouldn't get cleaned and have the Holy Spirit to live in you.

You have to come to Jesus in obedience and faith.

That is what he says.

What exact verse are you referring to? I tire of you making claims with no scripture.
Specifically, where do you read that a human "must do" before "God can?"
 

YourTruthGod

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Can someone tell me why Jesus would have to supernaturally give us faith when he says it is by hearing and learning?
 

YourTruthGod

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What exact verse are you referring to? I tire of you making claims with no scripture.
Specifically, where do you read that a human "must do" before "God can?"

I give you many scriptures.

Could you not deter from what I say.

It is not before can.

It is just what God tells us to do before He will save us.

Here is one scripture, and there are many more:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
 

MennoSota

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I give you many scriptures.

Could you not deter from what I say.

It is not before can.

It is just what God tells us to do before He will save us.

Here is one scripture, and there are many more:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

How does John 1:12 teach...
"You have to come to Jesus in obedience and faith."?
Observe the passage. What exactly does it say? Does it say, You must obey and have faith before you can come to Jesus?
 

YourTruthGod

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How does John 1:12 teach...
"You have to come to Jesus in obedience and faith."?
Observe the passage. What exactly does it say? Does it say, You must obey and have faith before you can come to Jesus?

The scripture says to those WHO BELIEVED IN HIS NAME, he gave the right to become children of God.
 

YourTruthGod

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That scripture says to those WHO BELIEVE.

And other scriptures say faith alone is dead.

There are many more scriptures that say to obey.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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That scripture says to those WHO BELIEVE.

And other scriptures say faith alone is dead.

There are many more scriptures that say to obey.
Show me in these verses where it says works save a person.

Ephesians 2:1-10

(NASB95)

Made Alive in Christ

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
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RichWh1

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That scripture says to those WHO BELIEVE.

And other scriptures say faith alone is dead.

There are many more scriptures that say to obey.

Faith will produce works, not that works save us; faith alone does. The works we do after we are saved show that we have faith.
Works is a product of salvation
Salvation is the product of faith




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zecryphon_nomdiv

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I give you many scriptures.

Could you not deter from what I say.

It is not before can.

It is just what God tells us to do before He will save us.

Here is one scripture, and there are many more:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
How do you know when you are saved? How many works must a person do. If this is how salvation really works, God would surely let us know in His Word how many works we must do in order to attain salvation. Can you post those Scriptures? I'd love to read them.
 

Andrew

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Faith will produce works, not that works save us; faith alone does. The works we do after we are saved show that we have faith.
Works is a product of salvation
Salvation is the product of faith




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Amen.
 

YourTruthGod

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How do you know when you are saved? How many works must a person do. If this is how salvation really works, God would surely let us know in His Word how many works we must do in order to attain salvation. Can you post those Scriptures? I'd love to read them.

I would love to show them to you.

Jesus saves us when he accepts us.

Never give up waiting on him.

We are told to humble ourselves, and to repent of our sins, and to call on him.
 

YourTruthGod

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Faith will produce works, not that works save us; faith alone does. The works we do after we are saved show that we have faith.
Works is a product of salvation
Salvation is the product of faith

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are many people with faith but they don't obey. So then, faith does NOT always produce works. Faith alone does not save.

Faith alone is mentioned one time in the Bible, in the KJV, and it is to warn us of what kind of faith not to have.
 

YourTruthGod

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Show me in these verses where it says works save a person.
Jesus says that he saves those who obey him.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

There are many more.

I will give you more if you would like.

Ephesians 2:1-10

(NASB95)

Made Alive in Christ

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

That is about the Gentiles who were dead in their sins because they didn't enter the covenant and do the purification works of the law to atone for their souls.


Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,


See, Paul isn't saying 'not of works' to mean 'not of obeying'. Paul is saying 'not of works' as in the purification works of the law in which circumcision is the sign.

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Jesus saves the Gentiles too, even though they were disobedient to God and did not clean themselves.

Jesus saved them and didn't make them get circumcised first.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.[/QUOTE]
Again, the works are the purification works of the law in which the Jews could boast about.
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.[/QUOTE]
Jesus tells us what to do to get saved and to stay saved.
 
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