Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[user1234]

How about, JESUS, I agree with you. JESUS, you're absolutely right!
( Josiah, calm down, it's not about you)

We just need to keep preaching the Gospel, lifting high the Cross. More of Jesus, less of me.

:cheer::cheer2::cheer::cheer2::cheer:

Yes, and how would you know that you have made one?:dunno: LOL! SMH.

:=D:

 

[Rens]

Other translations say No one can come to me unless the Father enables. That's the work of God. Once He enables we have faith and we have salvation.

I'm finding it really odd that none of the decision theology believers mention forgiveness of sins. I hear them mention over and over again what they think they have to do before they can be saved. But nothing about the cross or forgiveness of sins. Our faith grasps onto the Savior who died for us and that forgiveness of sins. That's how simple it is.

Yes okay, He draws, He enables, so then you can do it.
Lol that is the sinners prayer, the 'making a decision for Jesus'. You grasp that He died for your sins and then you ask Him to forgive your sins etc. Then you're saved.

 

[Lamb]

I see a lot of confusion between God saving us and the sanctification that follows.

We are saved by grace through faith. This is not of ourselves so no one can boast. This verse in Ephesians should tell you right there that whatever you think you're doing to participate in your salvation isn't you. It's God doing it.

If you feel you made a decision, that is only because you had faith to begin with which means you were saved before you uttered any cry of despair to God. He's got it covered and doesn't need your help. He doesn't need your permission. He rescued you. He alone saved you. Any type of decision or confession you made was only a response and not the cause. Your decision did not save you. It didn't sway God to do something for you because He already saved you. He died on the cross for your salvation. Acknowledge it, fine. But that's not why you're saved. Don't mingle things.

 

[Cassia]

I see a lot of confusion between God saving us and the sanctification that follows.

We are saved by grace through faith. This is not of ourselves so no one can boast. This verse in Ephesians should tell you right there that whatever you think you're doing to participate in your salvation isn't you. It's God doing it.

If you feel you made a decision, that is only because you had faith to begin with which means you were saved before you uttered any cry of despair to God. He's got it covered and doesn't need your help. He doesn't need your permission. He rescued you. He alone saved you. Any type of decision or confession you made was only a response and not the cause. Your decision did not save you. It didn't sway God to do something for you because He already saved you. He died on the cross for your salvation. Acknowledge it, fine. But that's not why you're saved. Don't mingle things.

Where does free will come in because it sounds like it doesn't in your theology...

 

[Lamb]

Where does free will come in because it sounds like it doesn't in your theology...

Man is free to choose what color shirt he'll wear or what job he'd like to take.

In the matter of salvation though, the will is NOT free. It is bound to sin. Original Sin.

You know that anything apart from God is sinful. Only the faithful are considered Holy in God's eyes because of Jesus Christ. We are covered in His righteousness in our baptisms (clothed in Christ).

So the nonbeliever cannot choose Holiness because he has no faith. His will is bound to sin.

The Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith by God's word. Once faith is received by man, that man has salvation because faith grasps onto the cross and forgiveness of sins won by our Savior. The nonbeliever finds the Gospel foolishness, so he is not righteous. There is nothing in him to make him righteous. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. He converts because we cannot in any way convert ourselves. No one can turn to God unless the Spirit does it. At that point is when man is saved (by grace through faith and this not of ourselves).

I keep saying this but those who think they made a decision already had salvation when the Spirit gave them the gift of faith. It's all the work of God to save us. None of it is our doing.

 

[Rens]

Man is free to choose what color shirt he'll wear or what job he'd like to take.

In the matter of salvation though, the will is NOT free. It is bound to sin. Original Sin.

You know that anything apart from God is sinful. Only the faithful are considered Holy in God's eyes because of Jesus Christ. We are covered in His righteousness in our baptisms (clothed in Christ).

So the nonbeliever cannot choose Holiness because he has no faith. His will is bound to sin.

The Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith by God's word. Once faith is received by man, that man has salvation because faith grasps onto the cross and forgiveness of sins won by our Savior. The nonbeliever finds the Gospel foolishness, so he is not righteous. There is nothing in him to make him righteous. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. He converts because we cannot in any way convert ourselves. No one can turn to God unless the Spirit does it. At that point is when man is saved (by grace through faith and this not of ourselves).

I keep saying this but those who think they made a decision already had salvation when the Spirit gave them the gift of faith. It's all the work of God to save us. None of it is our doing.

If He doesn't set the will free you can't get saved.

 

[Lamb]

If He doesn't set the will free you can't get saved.

Setting the will free by the Holy Spirit IS salvation because we receive faith from Him to trust in the Savior so we may have eternal life. It's His doing.

 

[Josiah]

Yes okay, He draws, He enables, so then you can do it.

[MENTION=181]Rens[/MENTION]


So, Christ is not the Savior (since "you" do it) but He is the Helper? The Enabler? What you stated is a rejection of Christ as the SAVIOR and a proclamation of Christ as the HELPER. Yes, that does give Christ a role, just not of SAVIOR.


Rens.... in justification, the distinctive difference between modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism compared to Christianity is those other religions have no role for a Savior. They teach that we CANNOT (at all) do what we need to do by own strength or ability. BUT their "gospel" is that God supplies us with fully sufficient strenght - making His divine power fully available to each individual. IF (there's the catch), IF we adequately "tap" it, then WE can save OURSELVES. They have no Savior because self has that role, instead, they say God HELPS us. In Judaism and Islam, God supplies mercy to "make up" for what we lacked as long as we "tapped" God's available power enough, sufficfiently, in that case, God supplying mercy to supply what we failed to achieve (as long as we tapped God's strengh enough.... we tried hard enough). In those forms of Hinduism, we are given another shot at it to build on what we failed to achieve. But Rens.... Christian justification is founded on an entirely different view. Christianity is not simply a form of modern Judaism, Islam and Hinduism. Christian soteriology is fundamentally different. Christianity is entirely founded on the truth that we need a SAVIOR (not helper) and that God has given and supplied that SAVIOR (not made available His help so we can save ourselves).

that is the sinners prayer, the 'making a decision for Jesus'. You grasp that He died for your sins and then you ask Him to forgive your sins etc. Then you're saved.

"You" "You" "You" Not even so much as a mention of grace, mercy, God, the SAVIOR..... Rens, I hope what you posted is the antithesis of your faith and belief, that you just very, very poorly expressed your faith. This statement makes you 100% the Savior, it all depends on YOU.

Now, you MAY be suggesting the idea that while Jesus is not at all the Savior, He is the possibility-maker. In that view, Jesus "opened the door to heaven but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through it by YOUR works." While most with that view see our "works" as love and morality, you see it as a matter of chanting the sinner's prayer, the dead/unregerate person making the right decision, the spiritually dead person who rejects Christ asking for His forgiveness, etc. But it's the same point: Saved by what WE do, saved by OUR works. Jesus' role perhaps to make it POSSIBLE for self to save self by what self does, but not saving anyone. I pray that's not your faith. Christianity is founded entirely on the truth that we NEED to be SAVED and that God has given us that Savior who saves us. Modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism are based on the idea that we don't need a Savior we just need the door opened for us and enough power/strength/enabling so that we can walk through it.... they don't have a Savior because they don't see we need one: just the possiblity and enough help. Is that what you are proclaiming?


Friend, I sincerely hope you'll consider the Scriptures Turtle offered... the things Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and myself are sharing.... there is Gospel. And it's ALL about Jesus who IS THE (one and only and all suffient SAVIOR). Christianity is not just a mildly messaged version of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism..... it's the Gospel that God SAVES and He does so because He is Agape (unconditional love) and operates by GRACE (giving what is undeserved, unearned, unachieved)..... We are directed to the Cross, not to the mirror.

Friend, consider what Scripture says: Without faith, people are DEAD. Spiritually DEAD. Deader than a doorknob! Such the Bible says CANNOT choose anything spiritual. Dead people can't do much. The Bible says faith and the salvation it embraces are "the FREE GIFT of God."



Soli DEO Gloria....



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]

Abraham acted on/in the faith he had been given.

EXACTLY!

So, pray tell, what is your disagreement with the video, with ANYTHING I or Lamm or Turtlehead or Tigger have posted? Yes, we are GIVEN faith. Just as God GIVES us physical life, so God GIVES us spiritual life. Just as He GIVES us breath, so He GIVES us faith. Not our doing, our accomplishment, our work. Not at all, not a bit. It's the "free gift of God" (as Scripture says) not instead our doing, our accomplishment. THAT is what the video is proclaiming, THAT is what I and Lamm and others have said...... what has resulting in 17 pages of passionate disagreement.


Yes, of course, obviously, undeniably, once God has GIVEN us faith..... once we ARE saved (in this sense of narrow justification).... once we are given spiritual life and so are no longer DEAD..... then, after that, as a result of that, we can respond, we can act, we can do..... after that, we are called to follow Jesus, to look to Jesus, to love as we now know Jesus loves us, to love God as we now know God loves us, to go and make disciples of people. Friend, no one in this thread... not one poster in this thread.... has remotely said (or believes) otherwise. But as you know, this thread is not about what the SAVED choose to do or are empowered to do, it's about BECOMING saved, justified. As you know, the entirely issue we are discussing is not what FAITH in our heart means, what being given LIFE means..... it's attaining that faith. Is it by OUR works (such as by the dead person deciding self to life, by the dead person who reject God loving God, by the dead person who doesn't believe in Christ looking to Christ for forgiveness, by the dead person who disbelieves in God looking to God for strength and then adquately tapping it? OR are we GIVEN faith, GIVEN spiritual life? It is our work or God's grace? THAT, as you know, is the issue. Some of us are holding that faith/life is the "free gift of God" and others passionately disagreeing and rebuking us and proclaiming a very different (in one case opposite) view.

he had been given faith.

So all your posts are just your way of saying, "Josiah.... Lamm..... Tigger..... the guy in the video..... you're right! Amen!"

But maybe want to add a point that's off-topic, a point no one remotely denies or challenges or questions, an issue different than the one of this thread: Those who have been given faith, given life - are to live accordingly? If so - fine - you aren't disagreeing with ANYTHING I've posted or anyone else here. Certainly not with Lutheranism or with the video. It's just an other issue: that addresses what the Living are to do, not how one becomes alive. OF COURSE, those given life are to live.





[MENTION=262]Cassia[/MENTION]

Too nitpicky for me. I would maintain that dedication of the parents to bring up a child rightly is clearly in the scriptures more than any of it.

1. Friend, this is the distinctive point of Christianity, this is the issue on which Christianity stands or falls. It's not nitpicky. If Jesus isn't the Savior, then Christianity crumbles. Modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism all teach that we are in trouble! But they teach we don't need a Savior, all we need is the POSSIBILITY of salvation (the door to heaven opened) and ENABLING (God to supply more than sufficient strength) which, if we tapped well enough, we can eventually save ourselves and get ourselves into heaven. Christianity - at its very core, as it's foundational belief - is very different. Christianity teaches that we cannot save ourselves (dead people can't make themselves alive), we NEED a SAVIOR! And the Gospel that God has supplied that SAVIOR! The Gospel of Christianity is not just an echo of what modern Judaism and Islam and some Hindus believe: that God makes salvation possible and gives us all the enabling we need but you gotta save yourself (thus not needing any Savior). Friend, it's not nitpicky: it's THE very point on which Christianity is founded, the very thing that makes Christianity distinctive.

2. Yes, as several of us have repeatedly said, of course, undeniably, unquestionably, once GIVEN life we are to live.... once GIVEN faith we are to be faithful.... Of course, as you know, that's not at all the issue of this thread but no one has remotely challenged or disagreed with that but rather strongly affirmed it. No the 17 pages of passionate disagreement with the video and Lamm and myself and others cannot be about that (we don't disagree with that but 100% fully agree with it) our point is singular: God GIVES the faith, God GIVES the spiritual life, God GIVES us breath, we are saved by the GRACE of God and not (the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu view) by what WE do (enabled by God or otherwise). Of course, it's OUR faith (because it's been GIVEN to us, just as my physical life is MY life) - but that doesn't mean we invented and created it ourselves (empowered or otherwise).



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Cassia]

I think that what can be summed up is in answer to the question "What do you think of Jesus" and in whether the answer to that question contains an acceptance of Him as Lord and savior of one's life.

 

[Brighten04]

What do you all think Lord Jesus is saying in these statements? Is he talking to believers or unbelievers?
Revelation 3:20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]

All y'all decisioners haven't posted satisfying scripture to proof yourselves but here is what our bible says on how you're saved by the grace of God

Unbelivers consider the Gospel foolish and can’t understand

1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:23-25 …but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.


Our selves fight against God

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.



Natural man (unconverted) is an enemy of God

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 3:10-12 “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; here is no one who does good, not even one.

John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.



God grants repentance

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”


God opens the heart

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.



God gives understanding

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.



God makes us alive

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.



Conversion is God's Work

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.



.

1. Friend, please read (or re-read) posts 29, 61, 73, 164, 189. All posts directed specifically to your issue but (it seems to me) you either didn't read or didn't consider or reply to. I won't just repost that again, I trust you'll go back and read them.


2. You seem continue to confusing HAVING something with thus CREATING it. I have physical life, I didn't therefore give it to myself.


3. Consider.... ponder..... the persistent Biblical proclamation that the spiritually dead, the unregenerate are, well, DEAD. And the frequent teaching that the dead don't do anything (um... they're dead) and the dead don't will or work themselves to life. GOD GIVES life. Note all the many Scriptures that proclaim that GOD saves, that NO ONE can have faith unless the Holy Spirit provides, no one CAN, no one is CAPABLE. Note all those that say that faith is "the free gift of God." Friend, if it's "the free gift of God" then doesn't it seem that God gives it?


4. Of course, there are Scriptures where dead/unregenerate people who thus deny God, reject Christ and have no spiritual abilities are called to faith. I'm not at all sure your quotes from Revelation are such (that book was written to CHRISTIANS - people who had faith and are being called to stronger, more active, more focused faith). But they do exist. However, we cannot separate those calls from the very strong, very common teaching that the dead can't give self life, the dead don't save self. Jesus called Lazarus from the dead, it is therefore mandated that Lazarus rose himself from the dead? Please consider that.... you seem to be making an unbiblical and illogical assumption that if we are called to something, therefore WE are responsible for making it happen. Just one example from the NT where your assumption is shown wrong: Lazarus was GIVEN life by Jesus.... by grace..... Read John 11:43, it's just one of the places in the Bible that shows your assumption is not true. Again, just because we are CALLED to do something doesn't mean we do it. Jesus clearly called Lazarus from the dead, but do you believe that THEREFORE he could raise himself back to life? That Jesus didn't perform a miracle of grace but Lazarus had to do this work (empowered by Jesus or otherwise)?


5. For 1500 years (and 2000 in some parts of the church) theology was called "MYSTERIES." People didn't speak of Christian theology but of "the Christian MYSTERIES." Scripture calls on us NOT to explain all things spiritual, to make everything God says seem logical and scientific to US (even if we have to delete a lot of Scriptures or change words in Scripture to do it), we are called to be "Caretakers of the MYSTERIES of God." Consider all Christian affirmations: The Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, the Incarnation, the Inspiration of Scripture.... well ALL of them..... they aren't explained in Scripture in terms of logic or science (because God's Truth is not dependent and subject to MAN'S anything!). And any attempts to "explain" and correct the Bible by means of OUR "logic" and "answers to our own questions" and secular philosophy - they only lead to heresy and the undermining of the Gospel. As I've expressed to you several times before (you've always ignored it), Lamm and Tigger and Turtlehare and I are by no means even attempting to "explain" anything. We are only affirming what the Bible and 2000 years of Christianity have affirmed: JESUS is the Savior and thus does the saving. We are saved by God's grace (undeserved, unmerited GIFT) and "FREE GIFT" which "is not your own doing." That the DEAD can't will or work themselves to life. AGAIN, I don't deny that I can't logically or philosophically explain how all this "cranks out" (I've written you often about that..... always ignored) but that we have mystery here does not negate the TRUTH of it. And your repeated attempts don't show it false either (this latest round that if we are called to something, ergo God doesn't do it but we must therefore do it...... the raising of Lazarus is just one example that shows your point just not true).


I hope you'll consider this..... Read the Scriptures Turtlehare gave (there are MANY more!!!!).... consider posts 29, 61, 73, 164, 189.....



Thank you.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Brighten04]

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]

1. Friend, please read (or re-read) posts 29, 61, 73, 164, 189. All posts directed specifically to your issue but (it seems to me) you either didn't read or didn't consider or reply to. I won't just repost that again, I trust you'll go back and read them.


2. You seem continue to confusing HAVING something with thus CREATING it. I have physical life, I didn't therefore give it to myself.


3. Consider.... ponder.....

1. Friend, please read (or re-read) posts 29, 61, 73, 164, 189. All posts directed specifically to your issue but (it seems to me) you either didn't read or didn't consider or reply to. I won't just repost that again, I trust you'll go back and read them.


2. You seem continue to confusing HAVING something with thus CREATING it. I have physical life, I didn't therefore give it to myself.


3. Consider.... ponder.....

I feel the same way about you. I have read and re-read the post that you keep re-posting ad nauseum as if I do not understand them. I have already SAID I have read them so why do you accuse me of not reading. You always re-post them when I ask you to comment on what Jesus said. Do you ever think YOU could be wrong and that someone, mainly Jesus is right? Would you kindly give me your thoughts on post 191. And please do not re-post what you have already posted in answer.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]

Would you kindly give me your thoughts on post 191

I did. In the next post, # 192, You ignored very word of it...




Perhaps I should repeat a point you didn't quote:

4. Of course, there are Scriptures where dead/unregenerate people who thus deny God, reject Christ and have no spiritual abilities are called to faith. I'm not at all sure your quotes from Revelation are such (that book was written to CHRISTIANS - people who had faith and are being called to stronger, more active, more focused faith). But they do exist. However, we cannot separate those calls from the very strong, very common teaching that the dead can't give self life, the dead don't save self. Jesus called Lazarus from the dead, it is therefore mandated that Lazarus rose himself from the dead? Please consider that.... you seem to be making an unbiblical and illogical assumption that if we are called to something, therefore WE are responsible for making it happen. Just one example from the NT where your assumption is shown wrong: Lazarus was GIVEN life by Jesus.... by grace..... Read John 11:43, it's just one of the places in the Bible that shows your assumption is not true. Again, just because we are CALLED to do something doesn't mean we do it. Jesus clearly called Lazarus from the dead, but do you believe that THEREFORE he could raise himself back to life? That Jesus didn't perform a miracle of grace but Lazarus had to do this work (empowered by Jesus or otherwise)?


.

IMO, you keep trying to argue against God giving the dead life with points that are simply wrong. Here, you SEEM to be suggesting that if the unregenerate dead are CALLED to something, ergo they MUST perform it. This too is unbiblical (and also doesn't make sense). Your latest argument is that if God calls on the dead to do something, ERGO they have the ability to do it and Jesus doesn't need to do anything. It's the persons' work, not God's grace and miracle. I think you need to reconsider that.... (just like the earlier arguments such as "and" mandates sequence, etc.). It is not only illogical but actually contradicts Scripture.


Let's look at this example: John 11:38-44

38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.

39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.

42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”


Now, friend, your entire premise is that the verses you found in Revelation teach that if we are CALLED to something, ergo we MUST be able to do it and it is our responsibility to do it. Your entire premise here is the assumption that if we are called to do something, we must be able to do it. Thus it is our work, our accomplishment, our achievement, pat self on back. Friend, your assumption is not only illogical but unscriptural. UNLESS you deny that Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, that this was not a miracle of grace (as Scripture states!) but you premise is that Lazarus, being DEAD, heard the command of Jesus, was obedient, and caused himself to come to life.

Friend, your premise here too is simply not correct. I pray you'll be open to that... Friend, please read all of post 191 (including the quote from Turtlehare) and please reconsider all the things you and others keep throwing out against God's grace and miracles. Yes, I realize there are some unanswered questions in what Scripture teaches, but the arguments you keep throwing out just don't destroy the Gospel. I believe Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead.. JESUS did it and did it all.... by grace.... by a miracle.... that man's logic and science and philosophy can't explain but still is true. Yes, Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb but your premise that THEREFORE dead Lazarus rose himself from the death (his own work, not Jesus' miracle) is just not what Scripture teaches. Your latest premise, your latest attempt is... well..... obviously lately wrong. I'm sorry to be blunt, I honestly don't want to hurt or offend you - sincerely, I don't - but I pray you'll reconsider all these attempts.




Soli DEO Gloria!



- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

What do you all think Lord Jesus is saying in these statements? Is he talking to believers or unbelievers?
Revelation 3:20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

The Revelation verse is speaking to those who already believe.

The Matthew verse... earlier as Jesus was speaking to the crowd He said, "Whoever has ears, let them hear." And then prior to the verse you posted He said, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So you see, those who do go to Him in comfort can only do so because God gave them faith. Jesus said things to the crowds knowing that some would reject Him. Those who believed did so because the faith given as He preached remained.

The John verse... earlier than the verse 35 Jesus said to the crowd, "For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” And then there were people in the crowd who replied “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.” They understood since the knew of the coming Messiah and they had faith.

 

[Brighten04]

<sigh>I am tired of this circular argument Josiah. So if you want to believe that repentance is not necessary for salvation, go ahead, believe it. I just pray to God that you repent as LordJesus instructs.

 

[Lamb]

<sigh>I am tired of this circular argument Josiah. So if you want to believe that repentance is not necessary for salvation, go ahead, believe it. I just pray to God that you repent as Jesus instructs.

Josiah is trying to tell you that repentance isn't what gives us salvation. It's the Holy Spirit who works repentance in us so we can turn to Him. Repentance is important in how the Holy Spirit uses it. But it always points us to God. God saves.

 

[Brighten04]

Josiah is trying to tell you that repentance isn't what gives us salvation. It's the Holy Spirit who works repentance in us so we can turn to Him. Repentance is important in how the Holy Spirit uses it. But it always points us to God. God saves.

I KNOW THAT IT IS LORD JESUS WHO IS THE SAVIOR, HE AND HE ALONE GIVES US SALVATION. how many times do we have to say that for you all? <sigh> I think I know what the problem is. You have not repented and you don't see the need to do it. But, ok, I am cool with that.

 

[Lamb]

I KNOW THAT IT IS LORD JESUS WHO IS THE SAVIOR, HE AND HE ALONE GIVES US SALVATION. how many times do we have to say that for you all? <sigh> I think I know what the problem is. You have not repented and you don't see the need to do it. But, ok, I am cool with that.

No need for any of that. (edited to say attitude)

The problem here is that people extend things that eliminates the focus on the Savior. It's not really even about semantics since others are so adamant that they play a role in their salvation. They don't. Salvation is entirely God's work. He died on the cross and we're forgiven. He gives us faith and we have eternal life. He is the one who converts. We can't do any part of that.

 

[Josiah]

<sigh>I am tired of this circular argument Josiah. So if you want to believe that repentance is not necessary for salvation, go ahead, believe it. I just pray to God that you repent as LordJesus instructs.

I'm disappointed that you keep saying I should read what you post but you very consistently totally ignore my posts..... sigh......

NO ONE has ever said that God doesn't require repentance (I guess you've given up on the "if we are called, we must be able to respond" point).... I feel a bit like I'm watching "the shell game" , your rebuttals keep moving in and out.

AGAIN....


1. You seem to be confusing remorse (a feeling of sorrow for what one has done) with repentance. Remorse is a psychological, emotional thing that I agree the DEAD and unregenerate are capable of doing (even animals feel remorse!). But no, the one without faith cannot repent. Repent is a SPIRITUAL act, it is something FAITH leads us to do. Repent includes turning to God's mercy, looking to God for mercy. People who are dead toward God, who deny God don't do that.


2. Yes, friend, I know there are Scriptures that say "repent and believe" and "believe and repent." Your premise that we therefore must be able to repent BEFORE we believe and that repenting creates and earns us faith is not correct. The word is "and" not "then." Your whole premise rests on the word "and" actually being "then", that the word "and" mandates order. Friend, as has been pointed out over and over (always ignored), that premise is not correct.


3. You continue to confuse what we are called to do with what we are able to do. I've TRIED to address that premise but you've entirely, wholly, continually ignored it. Just because the dead are called to repentance and faith doesn't mandate they can thus accomplish such (thus no need for grace or the Savior). Of course, LOTS of things are associated with salvation! Including the SPIRITUAL act of repentance that only believers can do. But our disagreement is that the dead must perform x, y, z and if they do (well enough) they achieve life, faith, salvation; that the dead must jump through whatever hoop and THUS are rewarded with faith, life, whatever.


4. I DO repent (not just feel remorse) but this is because God gave me faith, not so that God will reward me with faith. I repent - turning to God in confession and for mercy - because God gave me life (so that this is even possible) and faith (so that I look to God). Yes, I breath but because God gave me life, not so that someday I may achieve life. Just because there is an "AND"..... just because things are associated does not mean there is a mandated order and sequence there, that one earns and accomplishes the next. The premise is wrong.



- Josiah