Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Rens]

A living faith. That's what seems to be the trouble here. We are to live our faith and there have been verses that point that out in this thread. The main question though and I think that it's so simple that it's become complicated by some...God saves us. He does so by grace. He does so by faith.

I read from someone here that God wouldn't impose himself on anyone? I disagree. To whomever said it, you wouldn't save your child if he/she was dying? Of course you would.

God imposing salvation on us...who here finds that so horrible???? How did the devil enter in and teach that God saving His children is a deplorable thing...and people believe that it's horrible?

I have known God since before I could speak. I know His word is alive and active. I hope I never take credit for what God is doing for my salvation because to ME that's deplorable.

Thats the thing. You always knew Him. Others did not.
Yes God can arrest people like Paul but Stephen had to pray for him and Paul responded when he met Jesus. He never said that was such a great achievement of him or work or that he was a co savior or that everyone needs such a conversion.

 

[Rens]

No unbeliever can make a decision to believe in Jesus. Not one. Because of Original Sin we see the Gospel as foolishness, that is, until the Holy Spirit gives us faith (and faith comes by His word). We cannot create faith within ourselves. Faith isn't automatically put into every living human being because that goes against scripture that states we are all fallen.

The thief on the cross was with the Word himself and was given faith to believe. We are saved by grace through faith. He could only believe because faith was first given to him in order to believe. He didn't suddenly as a nonbeliever choose Jesus. That goes against scripture because the job of the Holy Spirit is to give us faith.
We shouldn't be denying that part of scripture in favor of human reason and pride of a decision. Once faith is given by the Spirit, you're saved. You can reject it and you can turn away. But you can't give yourself faith. Impossible.

I don't say you give yourself faith. Of course not. It's a gift.

 

[Lamb]

I don't say you give yourself faith. Of course not. It's a gift.

And once given salvation is upon that person.

 

[Josiah]

Abraham BELIEVED God.

Yes. I'm ALIVE. Does that statement document that I gave myself life, that I created life? Just because someone HAS something doesn't mean they created it, invented it, chose it..... Sometimes God's GRACE is the reason: God blessed. God GAVE.

No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

Where does that say Abraham created faith by himself, that he (while DEAD and unregerate) freely CHOSE to have faith in God's mercy? Actually, this refers to sanctifiction - to Abrahams life as a believer, to his life has a man of faith - but in any case, it doesn't say he created faith, it only says he had faith.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Again, nothing that remotely states that Abraham gave faith to himself, that as a dead and unregenerate man, he freely CHOSE to trust/rely in God's promises and mercies.

This too has to do with sanctification (a whole other subject than this thread). Here it simply embraces that Abraham HAD faith and as a believer, by virtue of faith, he lived and acted accordingly. He doesn't say that he BECAME a believer, that FAITH came to him because he created it, invented it, made it spring up in his heart and soul. I agree, THIS verse doesn't say that God did it but already LOTS of Scriptures have been shared that specifically state that faith is the GIFT of God, that state that without faith people are DEAD and unable to do anything spiritual or pleasing to God, that NO ONE is even capable of faith.... those verses and many more have been posted in this thread repeatedly.

God gives us faith

Then what's your persistent argument with me, Lamm, Tigger, Turtle and more????????

Did you watch the video? Do you agree or not?

Where we disagree is in the acting on/in our faith.

No we don't. This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with sanctification, it has to do just justification. The question of the thread is not, "Should those with faith live life differently?" The question of the thread is, "Are we saved (justification, COMING to faith, BECOMING a Christian) a matter of grace or decision?" Decision Theology is that we have free will and we FREELY (without God's intervention) DECIDE for or against God. Decision theology is that iff we have faith, we chose that and if we don't, we chose that; faith is OUR doing, OUR choice, OUR creation. Did you watch the opening video that the thread is about? Do you agree with it, with Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and me? Or not?

We see Abraham acting in faith

OBVIOUSLY! And if this thread was remotely related to what faith should or should not lead us to do, that would be very relevant!

The issue is: Did Abraham give himself that faith, did he create it by his own will and decision, is it a work he performed - and gets rewarded. Did you watch the opening video?

we have do willingly act on/in faith

Okay.... really stretching to see what that has to do with this topic, but okay..... I guess I have to breath and eat and drink. But does that prove that I gave myself life? That I came to be alive BECAUSE I willingly did something? I don't see it.

There is no indication that we just be and God saves us

There we disagree. If it's a matter of what we do, then it's not grace and Christ is not the SAVIOR. I believe in the Protestant view of justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. (Sola here means alone, ie NOT ME). You know, John 3:16. I believe Jesus IS the Savior and thus Jesus saves us. If we must do x, y and z in order to be saved then it's logically IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be the Savior. Then it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by grace (grace is a GIFT, not a reward). Now, again, you MIGHT argue that Jesus is PART Savior and self is PART Savior but then as Lamm pointed out, you need to assign percentages - what percent Jesus and what percent you? Or as I pointed out, if Jesus still has some role (just not the Savior) then WHAT is that role? Doorkeeper? Helper? What?

Now, none of that takes away that those saved are called to MANY things!!!! Obviously, we are to ACT! We are to be morally perfect just as God is! We are to be holy just as He is! We are to love even as and as much as Christ has first loved us! We are to go and make disciples of all people! Obviously, of course, no one here (least of all me!!!!) has remotely suggested otherwise (although all that would be "hijacking" to say in this thread). But ACTING OUT our faith doesn't create faith and doesn't save us, anymore than me acting out physical life mean that I gave myself life and this is why I was given life.

IMO, you are mixing up two ENTIRELY different things: Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification. And in the process, endangering the central, key point of Christianity: Jesus is the Savior. Let me use this illustration: I was born on January 23, 1988. I did nothing (in fact, I wasn't even conscience and it was by C-section). Did I give myself life? Did I earn it? Deserve it? Will it? Did I cause it because before I had life, I chose it and thus it sprung into existence? I believe not. It was GIVEN to me. Grace. But of course, I soon was called upon by God, my parents and my society to grow.... to be a loving, caring, responsible, moral person (I'm still working on that). But does my (flawed) actions AS ONE ALIVE mean I made myself alive? I believe not. Justification (salvation) is the issue of how we BECOME spiritually alive, no longer DEAD, no longer UNregenerate... but a person with faith, with trust/reliance in God's mercy and salvation, with a relationship with God, ALIVE.... IN CHRIST.... . The question of this thread - obviously, clearly - is does this occur by God's grace or my decision? Is it the gift and action of God (GRACE) or the decision and creation of SELF (a work, an accomplishment)? Lamm, Tigger, Turtle and more have been stating we believe it is a my grace, and we've had 16 pages of those passionately posting against us.

Lord Jesus spoke saying "Repent"

The disagreement is that I don't believe "repent" is even something an unbeliever can do! Have remorse, yes - but repentance is an act of FAITH. And I disagree with you that feeling sorry CREATES faith, the mechanism by which a DEAD and unregenerate person CHOOSES to have faith. Again, the Bible says that NO ONE is CAPABLE of having faith, the Holy Spirit must give it. The Bible says that faith is the gift of God lest anyone boast of their OWN accomplishment. If "repent" was something a DEAD, unregenerate person without any faith can do (and it's not) and IT is the means by which each self invents faith in self, then faith is NOT the gift of God..... people CAN have faith.... and it's NOT a matter of grace.

Scripture says God has given every man the measure of faith necessary for believing by faith that Lord Jesus IS the Savior.

God GIVES it. GRACE. No decision, not choosing, no creating it by our works or will or repenting. Did you watch the video? Did you read any of my posts here, friend? I'm REALLY, REALLY puzzled.

Maybe you could specifically state what is in the video that you so passionately DISAGREE with?



- Josiah

 

[Rens]

And once given salvation is upon that person.

God gives faith and then you act on it and speak and then you're saved unless you're not able to speak and say it with your heart. I noticed a lot of reformed people who have been christian all their life found those born agains with their sinners prayer weird, yet they too do confession. With the mouth you speak unto salvation. Faith without works is dead. Speaking is the first work of faith. Guess they don't even notice cause it goes natural.

 

[user1234]

But even there, Lamm seems to contradict their other position, and even what's presented by the 'lutheranism is the only way' guy on the OP video.

They say No One knows God, no one seeks Him, we all are dead in our sins, and He has to save us. Now I'm not saying agree/disagree on that point, but she is saying she knew God before she could even speak, so therefore her conversion from lost sinner to saved saint took place, transferred from darkness to light, as an infant or even a baby.

And I'm not even saying that's not possible, but it doesn't seem to be the normal thing in scripture. It's usually adults presented with the gospel, mainly ones that can understand the spoken or written word.
But the arguement always gets thrown in... Cant God do this, cant God do that?!
Well, ok, fine. They say that all the time.
Then I will stick with my answer to the OP Thread Title question. ..... YES. :=D:

 

[Josiah]

God gives faith and then you act on it

The first part of that is what the video and Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and myself have been saying - with 17 pages of some passionately rebuking us.

The second part is a different issue for another day and thread - and one no one here has remotely disagreed with. But I would add, our "acting" on it isn't what saves.... acting on it is sanctification not justification, ACTING doesn't make one saved it's what one saved does. Some put the distinction this way: We are NOT saved by our works, we are saved FOR our works. Don't press that far, but there's some truth there.... Christ IS 100% the Savior.... God's grace does all the "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fida" (Monergism as the video points out). But ONCED SAVED (in this sense of justification, narrow) we DO live out that faith.

Faith without works is dead

The James verse is written to those who already had faith, already justified, already Christians. And the point is NOT that faith in Christ doesn't save or that Jesus is not the right object of faith. James' point is that faith (that is faith) is an active, living reality (not some chant). A point no one here has remotely disagreed with. The issue here is singular: is faith (and thus the salvation it trusts/relies upon) a result of God's grace, blessing, giving, doing.... OR is it the result of the persons' own free choosing, decision, action, work?



Soli DEO Gloria (In Justification. Which leaves me entirely out! Grace of God, not works of me).



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

The first part of that is what the video and Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and myself have been saying - with 17 pages of some passionately rebuking us.

The second part is a different issue for another day and thread - and one no one here has remotely disagreed with. But I would add, our "acting" on it isn't what saves.... acting on it is sanctification not justification, ACTING doesn't make one saved it's what one saved does. Some put the distinction this way: We are NOT saved by our works, we are saved FOR our works. Don't press that far, but there's some truth there.... Christ IS 100% the Savior.... God's grace does all the "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fida" (Monergism as the video points out). But ONCED SAVED (in this sense of justification, narrow) we DO live out that faith.




The James passive is written to those who already had faith, already justified, already Christians. And the point is NOT that faith in Christ doesn't save or that Jesus is not the right object of faith. James' point is that faith (that is faith) is an active, living reality (not some chant). A point no one here has remotely disagreed with. The issue here is singular: is faith (and thus the salvation it trusts/relies upon) a result of God's grace, blessing, giving, doing.... OR is it the result of the persons' own free choosing, decision, action, work?



Soli DEO Gloria (In Justification. Which leaves me entirely out! Grace of God, not works of me).



- Josiah

You didn't choose Me, I chose you. But still yes you make a choice, you pray and then you're saved if it was genuine. Of course He works it all but from a human perspective that is what you do. If an unbeliever comes to church, hears the gospel, you ask if he wants to accept Jesus and tell him to pray a prayer. If you tell the person nothing but God does it all how on earth does he understand he's expected to invite Jesus and ask forgiveness for his sins?

 

[Josiah]

You didn't choose Me, I chose you. But still yes you make a choice

Which is it?

you pray and then you're saved

So which it is? 1) Jesus is the Savior by what HE did/does? 2) Self is the Savior because we prayed? 3) Jesus is X percent the Savior because of what He did/does and self is X percent the Savior by what self does?

f you tell the person nothing but God does it all how on earth does he understand he's expected to invite Jesus and ask forgiveness for his sins?

I don't tell the person he has to save himself by what he does. I tell him the Gospel.

And of course, the DEAD and unregerate couldn't care less what Jesus expects... and can't repent (he CAN feel emotional remorse) and won't ask for forgiveness, only the one with faith will do that and care about that.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

Which is it?





So which it is? 1) Jesus is the Savior by what HE did/does? 2) Self is the Savior because we prayed? 3) Jesus is X percent the Savior because of what He did/does and self is X percent the Savior by what self does?




I don't tell the person he has to save himself by what he does. I tell him the Gospel.

And of course, the DEAD and unregerate couldn't care less what Jesus expects... and can't repent (he CAN feel emotional remorse) and won't ask for forgiveness, only the one with faith will do that and care about that.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

Jesus is the Savior by what He does and makes us do lol.

 

[Rens]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them

So He draws and man comes, that's active, you go to Him to get saved.

 

[Josiah]

you go to Him to get saved.

[MENTION=181]Rens[/MENTION]


Respectfully, friend, I disagree.

In that case, as I see it, the Savior is you.... the reason you are saved is because you went to him. You took the initative, you performed your work.... and that good work of yours was rewarded, and that's why you are saved. You performed your work and that was rewarded with faith and thus salvation. Everything, then, rests on whether you did that work (and did it well enough). What you seem to be conveying is that it all hinges on what YOU DO - your work, your accomplishment as a dead, unregenerate person. If that's what you believe, then that's what you believe. I respect you, I just don't agree with that.

And if your point is: But God HELPED me! I've couldn't have done it on my own! Then (respectfully) God isn't the Savior but rather the Helper. Perhaps Christ makes it POSSIBLE (although you didn't mention Him) but it's your role to attain salvation. IMO, if He is the Savior then He saves us. That's different than empowering us or making it possible. Modern Jews, Muslims, and some Hindus believe God EMPOWERS us (with MORE than sufficient strength) and God OPENS THE DOOR to salvation - it's just they believe there is no Savior, you got to do it: you ultimately have to "tap" and use that power, cease that opportunity.... and save yourself. IMO, Christianity is different. Christianity is all about grace.... the Savior. Perhaps we disagree.... if so, then we just do.


Scripture specifically states that before Christ saves you, gives you life, gives you faith... when one is DEAD (and thus unable to DO anything - certainly unable to go to Him), when one is unregenerate - he/she can't do anything spiritual. That the unregenerate/dead/lifeless do not seek God or go to Him ... indeed they think all the things of God are foolishness. The Bible states that unregenerate/dead/lifeless man CANNOT (that's the word Scripture uses) can have faith apart from God giving it.... indeed that NO ONE is CAPABLE of what you seem to suggest we must do. The Bible says that faith is the "free gift" of God. Free GIFT. Of God. A result purely, solely, only of GRACE. Lest anyone should boast (like, "I went to Him for salvation, that's why I'm saved.").

As I read your statement, there is - at most, at best - two Saviors. A cooperative, joint effort. You because you went to Him (you got the process started, God was impotent until YOU took the first step) and then God because then, as a reward, supplied what you still lacked. Thus Lamm's question: So what percent Savior are you and what percent Savior is Jesus? All that seems troubling.... in terms of Scripture and also in terms of conscience. How do I KNOW I did my part? Good enough? And how did I - before I was alive - DO that? And again, even if you add, "But God gave me the strength to do it AND I DID IT" then that (IMO) just puts you in a similar camp with Muslims and some Hindus who believe that WE lack the strength to do anything of merit spiritually but God (or gods) EMPOWER us (more than sufficiently) - and IF WE adequately 'tap' that - then WE are REWARDED with the prize at the end (which we got to). Do you see my point, friend? I just don't believe that. I don't believe faith/salvation/spiritual life is a PRIZE we are rewarded with dead/lifeless people achieve it, earn it, do it. If you do believe - I respect that.


Rens, you may disagree with me but this is what I believe. Jesus is the Savior. Period. Not me. Not at all. Not a bit. SOLA Gratia (ALL His grace) - SOLUS Christus (ALL because of Christ and what He does) - SOLA Fide (all conveyed to me via trust/reliance, which is the "free gift of God"). I'm alive physically because God GAVE me life..... I'm alive spiritually because God GAVE me life. In neither case did I - before I was alive - create life by willing and choosing it, I was simply GIVEN it. By God. By grace. A free gift. THAT's the sole issue of this thread. The sole issue of the video. It's what Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and I have been saying, what the video says, and what many for 18 pages have been rebuking and rejecting from us.


SURE - of course, obviously, undeniable - ONCE Alive, once saved (narrow justification), once with faith, once we've been given faith - THEN we are called to many things! To action. To love. To repentance. To righteousness. To love. To ministry. But that is a RESULT of justification and faith, not the CAUSE of it. I reject your idea that salvation is the result of our works, I believe that our works are a result of our salvation. I don't agree that God rewards our work with salvation, rather I think we celebrate and apply our faith by our works. Again, it may be we disagree. If so, I pray you'd prayerfully consider this Gospel but my respect and embrace of you would not diminish. I'm surprised, mainly.


Rens - I'm not debating with you. I do respect you. But I AM praying you'll consider what several are saying to you... it IS the Gospel.


In MY view: Soli DEO Gloria. I'm kinda surprised so many here have a big problem with that.



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

[MENTION=181]Rens[/MENTION]


Respectfully, friend, I disagree.

In that case, as I see it, the Savior is you.... the reason you are saved is because you went to him. You took the initative, you performed your work.... and that's why you are saved. You performed your word and that was rewarded with faith and thus salvation. Everything, then, rests on whether you did that work (and did it well enough). What you seem to be conveying is that it all hinges on what YOU DO - your work, your accomplishment as a dead, unregenerate person. If that's what you believe, then that's what you believe. I respect you, I just don't agree with that. And if your point is: But God HELPS me, then (respectfully) God isn't the Savior but rather the Helper. Perhaps Christ makes it POSSIBLE (although you didn't mention Him) but it's your role to attain salvation. IMO, if He is the Savior then He saves us. That's different than empowering us or making it possible. Modern Jews, Muslims, and some Hindus believe God EMPOWERS us (with MORE than sufficient strength) and God OPENS THE DOOR to salvation - it's just they believe there is no Savior, you got to do it: you ultimately have to "tap" and use that power, cease that opportunity.... and save yourself. IMO, Christianity is different. Christianity is all about grace.... the Savior. Perhaps we disagree.... if so, then we just do.


Scripture specifically states that before Christ saves you, gives you life, gives you faith... when one is DEAD (and thus unable to DO anything - certainly unable to go to Him), when one is unregenerate - he/she can't do anything spiritual. That unregenerate does not seek God and thinks all the things of God are foolishness. That unregenerate man CANNOT (that's the word Scripture uses) can have faith apart from God giving it.... indeed that NO ONE is CAPABLE of what you seem to suggest we must do. The Bible says that faith is the "free gift" of God. Free GIFT. A result purely, solely, only of GRACE. Lest anyone should boast (like, "I went to Him for salvation, that's why I'm saved."). As I read your statement, there is - at most, at best - two Saviors. You because you went to Him (you got the process started, God was impotent until YOU took the first step) and then God rewarded that by doing what you still lacked. Thus Lamm's question: So what percent Savior are you and what percent Savior is Jesus? All that seems very troubling.... in terms of Scripture and also in terms of conscience. How do I KNOW I did my part? Good enough?


Rens, you may disagree with me but this is what I believe. Jesus is the Savior. Period. Not me. Not at all. Not a bit. SOLA Gratia (ALL His grace) - SOLUS Christus (ALL because of Christ and what He does) - SOLA Fide (all conveyed to me via trust/reliance, which is the "free gift of God"). I'm alive physically because God GAVE me life..... I'm alive spiritually because God GAVE me life. In neither case did I - before I was alive - create life by willing and choosing it, I was simply GIVEN it. By God. By grace. A free gift. THAT's the sole issue of this thread. The sole issue of the video. It's what Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and I have been saying, what the video says, and what many for 18 pages have been rebuking and rejecting from us.


SURE - of course, obviously, undeniable - ONCE Alive, once saved (narrow justification), once with faith, once we've been given faith - THEN we are called to many things! To action. To love. To repentance. To righteousness. To love. To ministry. But that is a RESULT of justification and faith, not the CAUSE of it. I reject your idea that salvation is the result of our works, I believe that our works are a result of our salvation. I don't agree that God rewards our work with salvation, rather I think we celebrate and apply our faith by our works. Again, it may be we disagree. If so, I pray you'd prayerfully consider this Gospel but my respect and embrace of you would not diminish. I'm surprised, mainly.


In MY view: Soli DEO Gloria.



- Josiah

No one is capable?
He says no one can come to Me unless.. I didn't say it. I just read the text. You come to Him. There are muslims who get saved because He comes to them in a dream, but most people I know who got saved took a bike or a car or walked and went to church or a friend and heard the gospel. Some atheists on forums say well if He wants me saved let Him do it and I'm like move your lazy butt to a church where He is present or pray to Him from your heart that He reveals Himself to you. You can't just do nothing and then blame Him. That's what they do. Ex christians. They heard this teaching about election and God does it and they take no action at all or some people are years in a reformed church week in week out, wondering if some day God is gonna save them.

 

[Lamb]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them

So He draws and man comes, that's active, you go to Him to get saved.

Other translations say No one can come to me unless the Father enables. That's the work of God. Once He enables we have faith and we have salvation.

I'm finding it really odd that none of the decision theology believers mention forgiveness of sins. I hear them mention over and over again what they think they have to do before they can be saved. But nothing about the cross or forgiveness of sins. Our faith grasps onto the Savior who died for us and that forgiveness of sins. That's how simple it is.

 

[Lamb]

Jesus is the Savior by what He does and makes us do lol.

His work on the cross wasn't enough then? You have to keep working and make up for His loss?

 

[Cassia]

Too nitpicky for me. I would maintain that dedication of the parents to bring up a child rightly is clearly in the scriptures more than any of it.

 

[Josiah]

His work on the cross wasn't enough then? You have to keep working and make up for His loss?

THAT is the nemesis, the terror, the hook in this "Jesus isn't fully the Savior" theology.

Even if Jesus does like NINETY percent of it (we just do 10% of it, only 10% depends on what the dead/unregerate/unspiritual person does) - then it's still 10% self as the Savior.... and that 10% IS what determines if I'm saved or not (so Jesus' 90% is kinda irrelevant). Your earlier point about WHAT percent is Jesus' and what percent is self hits the nail on the head.

It's all founded on the conviction that Jesus didn't say "IT IS FINISHED." Jesus didn't actually save us. Not really. God may be the EMPOWERER, the HELPER (a central teaching in modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism) but not the Savior: He supplies more than sufficient power - but it's up to dead/unregenerate self to adequately "tap" it and thus come to the finish line and therefore be rewarded with the prize of faith/salvation/life. But Jesus as HELPER is not Jesus as Savior. Others insists that "Jesus opened the door but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through that door by what YOU do/accomplishment/achieve/work." Then Jesus is the Doorman, not the Savior, Either way, we are the Savior. God/Jesus have roles (no doubt - even critical, essential ones) just not that of Savior. It's not grace (God's UNMERITED, UNEARNED, UNACCOMPLISHED, UNACHEIVED favor, blessing, free gift).



IMO.... this "decision theology" and other forms of "life by the works of me" theology flows from several things....
1) Pride. Man wants to think it's all about me. Affirming the Gospel takes great humility....
2) Confusing justification with sanctification, Gospel with Law, COMING to life with LIVING our new life. The Gospel gets destroyed in the process.
3) The Enlightenment. For the past 250 or so, people have rejected MYSTERY: MAN's own brain and logic and sense of science needs to answer everything, connect all the dots, tell God what He can and can't do, what must be and can't be. There are some valid questions.... the problem comes when self designates self to 'answer' the questions of self - even if it conflicts with what GOD (who should better understand all this) has actually stated. SURE there are mysteries, unanswered questions.... why must SELF insist that SELF is SO smart as to answer all of it, insist God must agree, and then have to actually delete and replace words God said so that God doesn't disagree.



Protestantism was based on these Solas (ONLY!): Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Soli Deo Gloria!!! Amazing to see Protestants fight SO passionately against them. The Reformation has gone full circle for many, right back to "it's about what I have done!" "MY decision!" "MY feelings!" "MY will!" "MY surrendering of the steering wheel of my life!" "MY works being rewarded" "MY taking the prize that I've attained."


I understand the confusion..... I honestly do (been there myself). We just need to keep preaching the Gospel, lifting high the Cross. More of Jesus, less of me.



- Josiah



.

 

[Brighten04]

Yes. I'm ALIVE. Does that statement document that I gave myself life, that I created life? Just because someone HAS something doesn't mean they created it, invented it, chose it..... Sometimes God's GRACE is the reason: God blessed.

<sigh> Nobody has said Abraham created faith Josiah!:banghead: You keep trying to put words and/ or beliefs where there has not been any. You are so fixated on doing that that you are not understanding. But I pray that the Lord God opens your understanding.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God gives faith, but one needs to DO something with the faith one has been given. That is so easy to understand.

 

[Cassia]

...

 

[Brighten04]

Josiah made these quotes.

Again, nothing that remotely states that Abraham gave faith to himself, that as a dead and unregenerate man, he freely CHOSE to trust/rely in God's promises and mercies.

No one said he gave himself faith. You just imagine that someone said that. But Abraham acted on/in the faith he had been given. He trusted God by the faith that he had been given. He acted by the faith that he had been given.

Then what's your persistent argument with me, Lamm, Tigger, Turtle and more????????

Simply what scripture says. Faith without works is dead. Just as dead as unregenerate man.

We are to go and make disciples of all people!

Yes, and how would you know that you have made one?:dunno: LOL! SMH.