Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Rens]

I don't understand why it's so awful that people don't want to give God all the credit and feel they have to take some for themselves concerning salvation? Why are those who preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins...and not anything of ourselves...persecuted?

Persecuted? I don't mind that you believe it like that. Why is it so terrible people believe different? If we'd all say you're not a real christian unless you make a decision and say the sinners prayer, which I saw happen in churches, okay thats annoying, but just as annoying as saying you make yourself important if you say it differently.

 

[Josiah]

Lamm You say we play no part and Lord Jesus does it all so let Him do it.

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]



It's not a case of "letting God". He doesn't need our permission to be God or to bless us. When I was conceived and given physical life, it was not a case of me "letting God" give me life. Much more so with spiritual life. It's a case of Jesus as the Savior. If He is the Savior, then I'm not. You're not. It's just that simple. It's just not complicated.


Now, one might say, "Jesus IS the Savior..... BUT you gotta....." The "BUT you gotta" cancels the "Jesus is the Savior." Because if YOU must jump through hoops A, B and/or C in order to enter heaven, then YOU sufficiently jumping through those hoops is why you are saved. It means you are the Savior, it means YOUR works is why you are saved. And it means that if Jesus has a role (and you didn't mention Him), then it's not the Savior. And Lamm and others asking what IS His role is necessary.... is He the Enabler? The Doorman? The Possibility-Maker? What? And if Jesus is PART Savior and you PART Savior then Lamm again is right to ask you what percent is Jesus and what percent is self? (and it becomes deceptive to call Jesus THE Savior if He's only PART Savior, A Savior)

Jesus says repent or perish.

But He never says our repenting is what saves us, what causes faith and life to spring in us.

And again, He doesn't say to have remorse (being sad for our sins and admitting them), He says repent. Repenting requires faith since repenting is done to GOD and includes seeking God's mercy. The dead/faithless/unbelieving/denier of God does not repent to God (he doesns't believe in God) and doesn't seek God's mercy (he doesn't believe in God's mercy). Repentance is not the cause of our salvation (thus no need for Jesus or to even mention Him - your act of repentance saves, not Jesus' Cross and Empty Tomb), nor is repentance even something an unbeliever can or will do (even animals can feel remorse, but only those with FAITH and LIFE can repent).

Now if you do not believe repentance is necessary, cool.

NO ONE has EVER said that repentance isn't necessary. It is the position of some here that this act of a believer, this act of faith is NOT what creates faith and life; that we do not save ourselves by performing this good work making Jesus irrelevant. Repentance is part of Sanctification (what a BELIEVER does, what one who is ALIVE does), it's not a good work that causes faith and life, that results in our own salvation making Jesus not the Savior but rather self.

I trust our Father

I hope you trust in the one-and-only, all sufficient SAVIOR too - the One on the Cross, not the one you see in the mirror.

And if you trust, it's because God gave you that. "The free gift of God.... lest any should boast"



Friend, you may think this irrelevant. But the entirety of Christianity rises or falls over this. The keystone of Christianity is that Jesus IS THE (only, all-sufficient) Savior. That we need to be SAVED (not helped) and God has supplied that SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. If that is in any way, to any degree compromise or to the slightest degree denied - Christianity crashes to the ground and we join with modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in their view of soteriology. The reason some take this very seriously is that Christianity does, it's Christianity itself at stake. Now, as several here have said, YES (absolutely!) there are mysteries in all this.... we don't know how God "cranks out" all this, how God GIVES life/faith/salvation.... but this we MUST proclaim as clearly and undiminished as possible: Jesus IS the Savior - no if, ands and buts about it. We are saved entirely, wholly by God's act of pure GRACE in Christ - His unconditional (no "buts") love, favor, blessing and "free gift." Christianity stands on THAT point, diminish that in the slightest degree.... add some "if's" and "buts" - and Christianity crashes to the ground. Lift high the Cross, not the mirror image of yourself. In justification, it's all Christ, it's not at all you.




Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah




.

 

[user1234]

It's all about me. I'm the best.

SEEEE???!!! I TOLD YA!!!

 

[TurtleHare]

When someone who loves you gives you a gift, maybe for your birthday or Christmas...do you go around telling people you received it because you decided to accept it? Does anyone really even speak like that in that type of language? I've NEVER heard anyone say that, for the record. But when it comes to salvation, I hear it all the time.

Hehe

Dad, you should thank ME for accepting that gift you gave me even though I didn't ask for it before you gave it to me and also it couldn't have been mine unless I decided to let it stay in my house even though you placed it there to begin with but I had to accept it first before I could claim it as mine.

Ridiculous load of you know what.

 

[TurtleHare]

I don't understand why it's so awful that people don't want to give God all the credit and feel they have to take some for themselves concerning salvation? Why are those who preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins...and not anything of ourselves...persecuted?

Pride, Lam. Human pride blinds the desperate who think they're in control of their destiny because you got the likes of Joel Osteen, the Left Behind crap series and a lot of other false teachers telling the masses that it's up to them to get saved because God is too pathetic and weak to save us from ourselves and they buy into it and even give those dudes money! But you and the others keep on preaching the truth because that's what God wants for his peeps to know no matter what kind of emotional outburts they want to throw back in your face because if you think about it, they're not mad about God they're mad that you're crushing their entire belief system that they've relied on all this time. Crush it good and show them the light of God.

 

[Rens]

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]



It's not a case of "letting God". He doesn't need our permission to be God or to bless us. When I was conceived and given physical life, it was not a case of me "letting God" give me life. Much more so with spiritual life. It's a case of Jesus as the Savior. If He is the Savior, then I'm not. You're not. It's just that simple. It's just not complicated.


Now, one might say, "Jesus IS the Savior..... BUT you gotta....." The "BUT you gotta" cancels the "Jesus is the Savior." Because if YOU must jump through hoops A, B and/or C in order to enter heaven, then YOU sufficiently jumping through those hoops is why you are saved. It means you are the Savior, it means YOUR works is why you are saved. And it means that if Jesus has a role (and you didn't mention Him), then it's not the Savior. And Lamm and others asking what IS His role is necessary.... is He the Enabler? The Doorman? The Possibility-Maker? What? And if Jesus is PART Savior and you PART Savior then Lamm again is right to ask you what percent is Jesus and what percent is self? (and it becomes deceptive to call Jesus THE Savior if He's only PART Savior, A Savior)







But He never says our repenting is what saves us, what causes faith and life to spring in us.

And again, He doesn't say to have remorse (being sad for our sins and admitting them), He says repent. Repenting requires faith since repenting is done to GOD and includes seeking God's mercy. The dead/faithless/unbelieving/denier of God does not repent to God (he doesns't believe in God) and doesn't seek God's mercy (he doesn't believe in God's mercy). Repentance is not the cause of our salvation (thus no need for Jesus or to even mention Him - your act of repentance saves, not Jesus' Cross and Empty Tomb), nor is repentance even something an unbeliever can or will do (even animals can feel remorse, but only those with FAITH and LIFE can repent).






NO ONE has EVER said that repentance isn't necessary. It is the position of some here that this act of a believer, this act of faith is NOT what creates faith and life; that we do not save ourselves by performing this good work making Jesus irrelevant. Repentance is part of Sanctification (what a BELIEVER does, what one who is ALIVE does), it's not a good work that causes faith and life, that results in our own salvation making Jesus not the Savior but rather self.






I hope you trust in the one-and-only, all sufficient SAVIOR too - the One on the Cross, not the one you see in the mirror.

And if you trust, it's because God gave you that. "The free gift of God.... lest any should boast"



Friend, you may think this irrelevant. But the entirety of Christianity rises or falls over this. The keystone of Christianity is that Jesus IS THE (only, all-sufficient) Savior. That we need to be SAVED (not helped) and God has supplied that SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. If that is in any way, to any degree compromise or to the slightest degree denied - Christianity crashes to the ground and we join with modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in their view of soteriology. The reason some take this very seriously is that Christianity does, it's Christianity itself at stake. Now, as several here have said, YES (absolutely!) there are mysteries in all this.... we don't know how God "cranks out" all this, how God GIVES life/faith/salvation.... but this we MUST proclaim as clearly and undiminished as possible: Jesus IS the Savior - no if, ands and buts about it. We are saved entirely, wholly by God's act of pure GRACE in Christ - His unconditional (no "buts") love, favor, blessing and "free gift." Christianity stands on THAT point, diminish that in the slightest degree.... add some "if's" and "buts" - and Christianity crashes to the ground. Lift high the Cross, not the mirror image of yourself. In justification, it's all Christ, it's not at all you.




Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah




.

No He needs our permission. God wants every man saved says 1 Timothy, so why doesn't He just save everyone if He doesn't need permission.

http://scrivenblog.blogspot.nl/2008/01/jesus-wants-my-permission.html?m=1

 

[Lamb]

No He needs our permission. God wants every man saved says 1 Timothy, so why doesn't He just save everyone if He doesn't need permission.

http://scrivenblog.blogspot.nl/2008/01/jesus-wants-my-permission.html?m=1

Which portion of scripture states that He needs our permission? I've never seen one.

 

[Josiah]

No He needs our permission.

Where does God say that? Where does God say that we are the Lord of Him, that we call the shots, that we are the dog that wages His tail?

When did I give God permission to give me physical life?

When did Lazarus give Jesus permission to raise Him from the dead? If Jesus didn't need Larazus' permission to raise him from physical death, why does He need our permission to raise us from spiritual death?

And just how does one who is DEAD, lifeless, does not believe in God, does not beleive in God's mercy or grace or that "God" (who doesn't exist) seek this "God" who neither exists or cares or does anything, how does that dead one seek that permission? How does the DEAD do anything? Lazarus or me or you?

It's not a case of "letting God". He doesn't need our permission to be God or to bless us. When I was conceived and given physical life, it was not a case of me "letting God" give me life. Much more so with spiritual life. It's a case of Jesus as the Savior. If He is the Savior, then I'm not. You're not. It's just that simple. It's just not complicated.


Now, one might say, "Jesus IS the Savior..... BUT you gotta....." The "BUT you gotta" cancels the "Jesus is the Savior." Because if YOU must jump through hoops A, B and/or C in order to enter heaven, then YOU sufficiently jumping through those hoops is why you are saved. It means you are the Savior, it means YOUR works is why you are saved. And it means that if Jesus has a role (and you didn't mention Him), then it's not the Savior. And Lamm and others asking what IS His role is necessary.... is He the Enabler? The Doorman? The Possibility-Maker? What? And if Jesus is PART Savior and you PART Savior then Lamm again is right to ask you what percent is Jesus and what percent is self? (and it becomes deceptive to call Jesus THE Savior if He's only PART Savior, A Savior)



But He never says our repenting is what saves us, what causes faith and life to spring in us.

And again, He doesn't say to have remorse (being sad for our sins and admitting them), He says repent. Repenting requires faith since repenting is done to GOD and includes seeking God's mercy. The dead/faithless/unbelieving/denier of God does not repent to God (he doesns't believe in God) and doesn't seek God's mercy (he doesn't believe in God's mercy). Repentance is not the cause of our salvation (thus no need for Jesus or to even mention Him - your act of repentance saves, not Jesus' Cross and Empty Tomb), nor is repentance even something an unbeliever can or will do (even animals can feel remorse, but only those with FAITH and LIFE can repent).


How does one who is spiritually DEAD do something spiritual?



NO ONE has EVER said that repentance isn't necessary. It is the position of some here that this act of a believer, this act of faith is NOT what creates faith and life; that we do not save ourselves by performing this good work making Jesus irrelevant. Repentance is part of Sanctification (what a BELIEVER does, what one who is ALIVE does), it's not a good work that causes faith and life, that results in our own salvation making Jesus not the Savior but rather self.






I hope you trust in the one-and-only, all sufficient SAVIOR too - the One on the Cross, not the one you see in the mirror.

And if you trust, it's because God gave you that. "The free gift of God.... lest any should boast"



Friend, you may think this irrelevant. But the entirety of Christianity rises or falls over this. The keystone of Christianity is that Jesus IS THE (only, all-sufficient) Savior. That we need to be SAVED (not helped) and God has supplied that SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. If that is in any way, to any degree compromise or to the slightest degree denied - Christianity crashes to the ground and we join with modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in their view of soteriology. The reason some take this very seriously is that Christianity does, it's Christianity itself at stake. Now, as several here have said, YES (absolutely!) there are mysteries in all this.... we don't know how God "cranks out" all this, how God GIVES life/faith/salvation.... but this we MUST proclaim as clearly and undiminished as possible: Jesus IS the Savior - no if, ands and buts about it. We are saved entirely, wholly by God's act of pure GRACE in Christ - His unconditional (no "buts") love, favor, blessing and "free gift." Christianity stands on THAT point, diminish that in the slightest degree.... add some "if's" and "buts" - and Christianity crashes to the ground. Lift high the Cross, not the mirror image of yourself. In justification, it's all Christ, it's not at all you.



.

BUT Jesus announces, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him…”

Again, you keep going back to the same very false premises.... this one that if we are called to something THEREFORE we must have the ability to do it. It's not only entirely illogical but unbiblical. AGAIN, I direct you to (just one biblical) example: John 11:38-44. Read it. Lazarus was DEAD. Deader than a doorknob. Dead, dead, dead. Sticking dead. Jesus very, very clearly CALLED him (verse 43). Now, by your premise, Jesus did nothing here but extend a call..... no miracle, no grace, no gift, no act..... Lazarus (being DEAD) heard the call, responded to it, gave himself life, and saved himself. I think you must agree that your premise is false (so does Scripture because it says that JESUS raised Lazarus from the dead). This is a MIRACLE. A pure miracle of JESUS. A miracle of grace. Jesus GAVE life to one who was DEAD. The bible says that the unregenerate, the lifeless, the unbelieving are spiritually dead. Dead, dead, dead. Deader than a doornail, they stick. Who gives them life? Jesus. Who raises them from the dead? Jesus. "It is the free gift of God."
I don't deny that in a few rare occasions, in the context of justification a "call" is extended, I just think your premise that therefore dead must be able to respond to it (thus Lazarus raised himself from the death - this is a result of the good works of Lazarus and not the work of Jesus.... Lazarus' work not God's gracious gift).




Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah




.

 

[Rens]

Where does God say that? Where does God say that we are the Lord of Him, that we call the shots, that we are the dog that wages His tail?

When did I give God permission to give me physical life?

When did Lazarus give Jesus permission to raise Him from the dead? If Jesus didn't need Larazus' permission to raise him from physical death, why does He need our permission to raise us from spiritual death?

And just how does one who is DEAD, lifeless, does not believe in God, does not beleive in God's mercy or grace or that "God" (who doesn't exist) seek this "God" who neither exists or cares or does anything, how does that dead one seek that permission? How does the DEAD do anything? Lazarus or me or you?








Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah

He doesn't ask anyone permission to be born, some He asks if they want to go back to earth or stay in heaven, but with being born again He needs our permission because you can also reject Him. He forces Himself on noone. Happily or totally not. Some reject Him for decades and accept Him on their death bed.
I stand at the door and I knock. If someone opens I will come in.

 

[Rens]

My mother was never taught that she had to accept Him or pray the sinner's prayer. She was raised from birth as reformed, always went to church until she married my dad, but always believed in God. Then one day my brother and I went to a pentecostal church and she was afraid it was a cult so she checked it out and came too and stayed and made a decision. She said she has a personal relationship with Him since she made that decision, not before.

 

[Josiah]

He doesn't ask anyone permission to be born

Then, friend, your premise is wrong: God by no means NEEDS the permission of the dead for Him to give them life. God doesn't need permission for Him to bless us, to be gracious to us, to give to us. We are not the dog that wags the tail of God, we are not the Lord of Him rather He is the Lord of us.

And again, how does one who is DEAD give permission (especially to a God they deny exists, they don't accept even is, they don't except gives anything)? How did Lazarus give Jesus permission to give him life in John 11:38-44?

BUT Jesus announces, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him…”

Again, that "Jesus is the Savior BUT...... BUT....... BUT...... you gotta!!!!!"


Again, you keep going back to the same list of very false premises.... this one that if we are called to something THEREFORE we must have the ability to do it. It's not only entirely illogical but unbiblical.

AGAIN, I direct you to (just one biblical) example: John 11:38-44. Read it. Lazarus was DEAD. Deader than a doorknob. Dead, dead, dead. Sticking dead. Jesus very, very clearly CALLED him (verse 43). Now, by your premise, Jesus did nothing here but extend a call..... no miracle, no grace, no gift, no act..... Lazarus (being DEAD) heard the call, responded to it, gave himself life, and saved himself. I think you must agree that your premise is false (so does Scripture because it says that JESUS raised Lazarus from the dead). This is a MIRACLE. A pure miracle of JESUS. A miracle of grace. Jesus GAVE life to one who was DEAD. The bible says that the unregenerate, the lifeless, the unbelieving are spiritually dead. Dead, dead, dead. Deader than a doornail, they stick. Who gives them life? Jesus. Who raises them from the dead? Jesus. "It is the free gift of God."
I don't deny that in a few rare occasions, in the context of justification a "call" is extended, I just think your premise that therefore dead must be able to respond to it (thus Lazarus raised himself from the death - this is a result of the good works of Lazarus and not the work of Jesus.... Lazarus' work not God's gracious gift).


.

I stand at the door and I knock. If someone opens I will come in.

You keep coming back to this illogical and unbiblical premise. Yup, in the context of justification, one can find a precious few examples where a call is extended to a DEAD person who can't hear or act. But your premise is wrong. Several times, I've shown this - you always evade, ignore and dodge it. I gave you a very, very clear biblical example: John 11:38-44. Here Jesus very, very clearly extends a call to a DEAD man. But the text goes on to say JESUS graciously GAVE him life, JESUS did this, JESUS performed a miracle of grace, JESUS changed him from death to life. Your premise that extending a call mandates the hearer (even if the hearer is DEAD) can respond to it. It's illogical, it's unbiblical.


Friend, you may think this irrelevant. But the entirety of Christianity rises or falls over this. The keystone of Christianity is that Jesus IS THE (only, all-sufficient) Savior. That we need to be SAVED (not helped) and God has supplied that SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. If that is in any way, to any degree compromise or to the slightest degree denied - Christianity crashes to the ground and we join with modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in their view of soteriology. The reason some take this very seriously is that Christianity does, it's Christianity itself at stake. Now, as several here have said, YES (absolutely!) there are mysteries in all this.... we don't know how God "cranks out" all this, how God GIVES life/faith/salvation.... but this we MUST proclaim as clearly and undiminished as possible: Jesus IS the Savior - no if, ands and buts about it. We are saved entirely, wholly by God's act of pure GRACE in Christ - His unconditional (no "buts") love, favor, blessing and "free gift." Christianity stands on THAT point, diminish that in the slightest degree.... add some "if's" and "buts" - and Christianity crashes to the ground. Lift high the Cross, not the mirror image of yourself. In justification, it's all Christ, it's not at all you.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah




.

 

[Rens]

Then, friend, your premise is wrong: God by no means NEEDS the permission of the dead for Him to give them life. God doesn't need permission for Him to bless us, to be gracious to us, to give to us. We are not the dog that wags the tail of God, we are not the Lord of Him rather He is the Lord of us.

And again, how does one who is DEAD give permission (especially to a God they deny exists, they don't accept even is, they don't except gives anything)? How did Lazarus give Jesus permission to give him life in John 11:38-44?






You keep coming back to this illogical and unbiblical premise. Yup, in the context of justification, one can find a precious few examples where a call is extended to a DEAD person who can't hear or act. But your premise is wrong. Several times, I've shown this - you always evade, ignore and dodge it. I gave you a very, very clear biblical example: John 11:38-44. Here Jesus very, very clearly extends a call to a DEAD man. But the text goes on to say JESUS graciously GAVE him life, JESUS did this, JESUS performed a miracle of grace, JESUS changed him from death to life. Your premise that extending a call mandates the hearer (even if the hearer is DEAD) can respond to it. It's illogical, it's unbiblical.


Friend, you may think this irrelevant. But the entirety of Christianity rises or falls over this. The keystone of Christianity is that Jesus IS THE (only, all-sufficient) Savior. That we need to be SAVED (not helped) and God has supplied that SAVIOR - Jesus Christ. If that is in any way, to any degree compromise or to the slightest degree denied - Christianity crashes to the ground and we join with modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in their view of soteriology. The reason some take this very seriously is that Christianity does, it's Christianity itself at stake. Now, as several here have said, YES (absolutely!) there are mysteries in all this.... we don't know how God "cranks out" all this, how God GIVES life/faith/salvation.... but this we MUST proclaim as clearly and undiminished as possible: Jesus IS the Savior - no if, ands and buts about it. We are saved entirely, wholly by God's act of pure GRACE in Christ - His unconditional (no "buts") love, favor, blessing and "free gift." Christianity stands on THAT point, diminish that in the slightest degree.... add some "if's" and "buts" - and Christianity crashes to the ground. Lift high the Cross, not the mirror image of yourself. In justification, it's all Christ, it's not at all you.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah




.

John 11 is not clear to me cause he was already saved. He was just physically dead. God needs no permission to raise physical dead. He will raise the ones that rejected Him too physically in the end.


John 1:12 (NET)
1:12 But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children

You have to receive Him. It's by His grace, it's His gift, His work that you do, but you still have to receive Him.

 

[Brighten04]

I believe repentance is a gift because scripture says it is. Do you?

Sister, believe what you will. I ain't even mad a ya.

I repented, have you?

 

[Brighten04]

Hehe

Dad, you should thank ME for accepting that gift you gave me even though I didn't ask for it before you gave it to me and also it couldn't have been mine unless I decided to let it stay in my house even though you placed it there to begin with but I had to accept it first before I could claim it as mine.

Ridiculous load of you know what.

Don't be ridiculous. Why do you all use so many words to hijack what we are saying? Your quote is convoluted to confuse. And We know who authors confusion.

 

[psalms 91]

Don't be ridiculous. Why do you all use so many words to hijack what we are saying? Your quote is convoluted to confuse. And We know who authors confusion.

Better to leave the thread than to get so upset, and nyes I know how hard that is sometimes but it is obvious they will agree with each other and if anyone doesnt then you can lok ove rthe thread to see how twisted the words get so yes you should back away as I have

 

[Brighten04]

Better to leave the thread than to get so upset, and nyes I know how hard that is sometimes but it is obvious they will agree with each other and if anyone doesnt then you can lok ove rthe thread to see how twisted the words get so yes you should back away as I have

Yes, you are right brother. I'm out.

 

[Lamb]

Sister, believe what you will. I ain't even mad a ya.

I repented, have you?

The Holy Spirit turned me, yes.

 

[Josiah]

John 11 is not clear to me cause he was already saved. He was just physically dead. God needs no permission to raise physical dead. He will raise the ones that rejected Him too physically in the end

The point raised to me was that:

1. If one is called to do something, ERGO they can do it and if they do, it's THEIR will/work. I've posted that the whole premise is illogical and unbiblical, and I gave the rising of Lazarus as an example. No one considered it. Clearly he was DEAD. Clearly he was CALLED. Clearly he didn't choose anything, he didn't give himself anything. Clearly JESUS performed a gracious miracle. The premise of your argument is wrong.

2. God cannot bless or give or do anything without receiving the prior permission of the one to be blessed. Yet, Jesus didn't ask this dead man anything.... and this dead man didn't give Jesus permission to do anything. Jesus just loved him. And thus chose to bless him, to give to him a free gift, to perform a GRACIOUS MIRACLE.... the DEAD were raised to life (the verb here is passive), in no sense did this dead man bring about his rising. The premise others suggested is wrong.



So..... Sometimes we are the Lord and sometimes God is? Sometimes God needs our permission before He can bless us and sometimes not? Where does Scripture say that? Can you list for us all the situations where God is lord and where we are the Lord of God?

John 1:12 (NET)
1:12 But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children

Absolutely!! But it doesn't say the dead raised themselves to life, it doesn't say the dead create faith and give it to themselves. This verse by no means makes your point or remotely suggests it.

And friend, to HAVE something doesn't mean ergo we created it, caused it. I HAVE physical life..... I didn't cause it. Or will it. Or given anyone permission about it.



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah


.

 

[Rens]

The point raised to me was that:

1. If one is called to do something, ERGO they can do it and if they do, it's THEIR will/work. I've posted that the whole premise is illogical and unbiblical, and I gave the rising of Lazarus as an example. No one considered it. Clearly he was DEAD. Clearly he was CALLED. Clearly he didn't choose anything, he didn't give himself anything. Clearly JESUS performed a gracious miracle. The premise of your argument is wrong.

2. God cannot bless or give or do anything without receiving the prior permission of the one to be blessed. Yet, Jesus didn't ask this dead man anything.... and this dead man didn't give Jesus permission to do anything. Jesus just loved him. And thus chose to bless him, to give to him a free gift, to perform a GRACIOUS MIRACLE.... the DEAD were raised to life (the verb here is passive), in no sense did this dead man bring about his rising. The premise others suggested is wrong.



So..... Sometimes we are the Lord and sometimes God is? Sometimes God needs our permission before He can bless us and sometimes not? Where does Scripture say that? Can you list for us all the situations where God is lord and where we are the Lord of God?





Absolutely!! But it doesn't say the dead raised themselves to life, it doesn't say the dead create faith and give it to themselves. This verse by no means makes your point or remotely suggests it.

And friend, to HAVE something doesn't mean ergo we created it, caused it. I HAVE physical life..... I didn't cause it. Or will it. Or given anyone permission about it.



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah


.

I never said you create faith yourself or raise yourself, simply that He wants us to respond and some resisted Him.
Brighten posted a bunch of texts and I a few, too lazy to look em up, have to roller skate, maybe later. That's how enormously important I find this.

 

[Rens]

It's not me telling Him what to do, go save me, He wants me to ask and accept and ask Him to forgive my sins, repent and listen and choose for Him.
If someone's leg doesn't work He says: take your bed up and walk. There's no way they work that themselves, they obey the Word, have to, unless like in that city they didn't believe, He couldn't do a thing.