Antihistamines for works.

[user1234]

snirfle, your account of history is wrong. It's propaganda not history.

I've got many decades worth of belief and practices from family and friends, so these are things the RCchurch teaches, or all these good practicing catholics learned it wrong all these years.

Good discussion, but I gotta go ...hope to pick it up later ....
The salvation invitation along with the friendship still stands. Peace.

 

[user1234]

Yes I agree. There's the danger of contributing yourself, legalism, but if you go too far to the other side another extreme is lawlesness. I first heard 'do this do that youre never good enough' preachings in some sort of evangelical cult, but then we got OSAS in another church. Yaay! I didn't have to pray the sinner's prayer anymore every week if I did a sin. Nothing you did got you into the Kingdom. Nothing bad you do can get you out of it.
And it was great. Finally the condemnation was gone. Great. Yet it's not entirely true, 'cause a lot of people fall from their faith, 'cause they start to live in sin, like living together with someone. That's a choice, that's living in sin. Happens all the time here in evangelical churches. Work out your salvation with trembling and a lot of churches don't preach that anymore. Revelations, if you're lukewarm I spit you out of My mouth. Ehmmm... They say God sees you as perfect no matter what you do. Michael Brown said: oh so He saw those churches in Revelations as perfect as Jesus? Then why did He rebuke them?

Hi Rens ... <3 ... Diff context but I gotta run ... Will explain later ... Hugs, ...hold tight, watch that storm, ok?... Jesus loves you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've got many decades worth of belief and practices from family and friends, so these are things the RCchurch teaches, or all these good practicing catholics learned it wrong all these years.

Good discussion, but I gotta go ...hope to pick it up later ....
The salvation invitation along with the friendship still stands. Peace.

I'll pass on your offer of heresy.

:smirk:

 

[user1234]

I'll pass on your offer of heresy.

:smirk:

Now seee??? There you gotta go with the childish mockery and bs.
What's wrong with having a discussion without resorting to those petty barbs?

You extend no friendship, you mock the gospel and the call to Hebrews 13:1.....
Maybe you need to take a look in that religious mirror and see what that religion of works and arrogance is teaching, because it sure ain't a very friendly or welcoming invitation into the love of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now seee??? There you gotta go with the childish mockery and bs.
What's wrong with having a discussion without resorting to those petty barbs?

You extend no friendship, you mock the gospel and the call to Hebrews 13:1.....
Maybe you need to take a look in that religious mirror and see what that religion of works and arrogance is teaching, because it sure ain't a very friendly or welcoming invitation into the love of God.

Why is it childish and mockery when I say your teaching is heresy and it is not so when you complain about the alleged errors of catholicism? You have a double standard. I reject it. What is good for you to say is safe for me to reflect back at you. Your teaching is error and leads to more error. It is heresy.

 

[psalms 91]

Error is on the part of those beholding it. I will refrain from my opinion which most know anyhow but I will say that there is only one pushing his doctrine hard.

 

[atpollard]

Now that you've expressed your misgivings tell me straight what have I written that makes you think I believe or teach that people are saved by works and not by grace?

This right here:

Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfillment at the last judgement when the Lord declares to the faithful Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Your god has children who will inherit at the end of the race "IF" ... because "Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfillment at the last judgement". Thus at any point between now and the last Judgement, one could fail to 'work out' this salvation and it would, I assume, not reach 'fulfillment'.

What 'working out' does one do in life to reach this 'fulfillment'?


In my world view, salvation is adoption. I had no say or control over my natural birth, I was simply born. Likewise, I am told by scripture that while I was still dead (dead bodies don't do a lot) and an enemy of God (enemies don't do a lot for God) and incapable of saving myself (which makes sense for a dead, enemy of God), GOD did a work. God loved me. God extended His grace and gave me faith. His faith in me, allowed me to "confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in [my] heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [I was] saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10). I am already saved.

I am already a member of the household of God:
Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

Since I am already a child of God, I do not NEED to labor to earn my inheritance or to perfect myself. Which is just as well since my best efforts are inadequate to the task. Rather, I can labor in the family business because I am a child of God. Because I am saved. Because I would not wish to bring shame on the family name that I have been given through adoption.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Error is on the part of those beholding it. I will refrain from my opinion which most know anyhow but I will say that there is only one pushing his doctrine hard.

That would be you? The doctrine that you will not mention yet say you are confident that everybody knows is what you pushed many times in the past and no doubt you still believe now so you do push it.

And error is error. It is not relative like the insane "fake news claims" of Donald Trump. If you believe that the bible teaches anything coherently then it teaches that there is error and error is wrong. It isn't "in the eye of the beholder" like beauty is said to be. Error is objectively incorrect teaching. Like teaching that works earn salvation and like teaching that works play no role in salvation. Neither of those propositions is true because they are both errors. You agree with me that dismissing good works from one's theology of salvation is an error. We share that much.

 

[Lamb]

Great point about adoption!! Also testament as in last will and testament. We have salvation in our account because God gives us faith to trust in Him. Living our lives out is a different topic and that's what the confusion is here in this thread.

No one is allergic to works. But God has redeemed us and the work on the cross is our salvation. It's so simple that Jesus even pointed out the faith of the little children as example

This right here:


Your god has children who will inherit at the end of the race "IF" ... because "Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfillment at the last judgement". Thus at any point between now and the last Judgement, one could fail to 'work out' this salvation and it would, I assume, not reach 'fulfillment'.

What 'working out' does one do in life to reach this 'fulfillment'?


In my world view, salvation is adoption. I had no say or control over my natural birth, I was simply born. Likewise, I am told by scripture that while I was still dead (dead bodies don't do a lot) and an enemy of God (enemies don't do a lot for God) and incapable of saving myself (which makes sense for a dead, enemy of God), GOD did a work. God loved me. God extended His grace and gave me faith. His faith in me, allowed me to "confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in [my] heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [I was] saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10). I am already saved.

I am already a member of the household of God:
Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

Since I am already a child of God, I do not NEED to labor to earn my inheritance or to perfect myself. Which is just as well since my best efforts are inadequate to the task. Rather, I can labor in the family business because I am a child of God. Because I am saved. Because I would not wish to bring shame on the family name that I have been given through adoption.

 

[user1234]

Why is it childish and mockery when I say your teaching is heresy and it is not so when you complain about the alleged errors of catholicism? You have a double standard. I reject it. What is good for you to say is safe for me to reflect back at you. Your teaching is error and leads to more error. It is heresy.

Thats not it ... Its just your attitude, your position that everybody that isnt Roman Catholic like you is wrong, (and your smug little smirky character, which is something a petulant little girl on facebook would do).

Youve ignored repeated friend requests by good ppl here, you refuse to answer questions regarding salvation and what the RCchurch teaches, only to cry that youre being misrepresented by other posters here, and then like a bratty child, put ppl on ignore, which quite frankly, imo, is simply another version of a school child sticking their fingers in their ears and going mlah mlah mlah I'm ignoring you . That's whats childish.

And calling an invitation to receive the Lord Jesus Christ by faith heresy, without anything to back it up, nor any offer of an alternative in friendship and love is also pretty childish. But like another person said earlier, I too, am starting to question your motives. Maybe it seemed cute at first, but what really is the problem? If you need a friend, you've got plenty here including me, if you just want to come down from up there and be one.

 

[Rens]

Error is on the part of those beholding it. I will refrain from my opinion

I'm bored. I feel like heresy hunting today.

 

[user1234]

I'm bored. I feel like heresy hunting today.

Come hunt me :=D:

 

[Rens]

I'm wondering if I should pluck dogs by the ears or not today. Nah I'll go play a game with Jo.

 

[atpollard]

Well, if we really want to be able to sling accusations of error and heracy, we should probably start a discussion on what Revelation REALLY means for the end times.
So does anyone have a special, private revelation that no other theologian has ever thought of? Those are always my favorite.

[Here is the best that I ever had explained to me: The key to understanding scripture is Ephesians 2:20 ("built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets") so everything in the Bible not written by an Apostle or Prophet is not part of the FOUNDATION of our faith ... it is a Tare sown by the enemy to confuse.]

 

[Rens]

Well, if we really want to be able to sling accusations of error and heracy, we should probably start a discussion on what Revelation REALLY means for the end times.
So does anyone have a special, private revelation that no other theologian has ever thought of? Those are always my favorite.

[Here is the best that I ever had explained to me: The key to understanding scripture is Ephesians 2:20 ("built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets") so everything in the Bible not written by an Apostle or Prophet is not part of the FOUNDATION of our faith ... it is a Tare sown by the enemy to confuse.]

hahahahahahaha
Oh I so miss those threads about endtimes.

 

[user1234]

Hey ... In case nobody told you yet today ....
Jesus loves you !!!
Yep ... It's true ...
Died for your sins, ... All of 'em ...
Rose from the grave, ... That proves it ...
Have a blessed rest of the day! :=D:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes <an answer to one of atpollard's questions>

Yes <an answer to one of atpollard's questions>

During salvation. Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfilment at the last judgement when the Lord declares to the faithful Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world <an answer to one of atpollard's questions>

Now that you've expressed your misgivings tell me straight what have I written that makes you think I believe or teach that people are saved by works and not by grace? <a comment on one of atpollard's closing remarks>

This right here:


Your god has children who will inherit at the end of the race "IF" ... because "Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfillment at the last judgement". Thus at any point between now and the last Judgement, one could fail to 'work out' this salvation and it would, I assume, not reach 'fulfillment'.

What 'working out' does one do in life to reach this 'fulfillment'?


In my world view, salvation is adoption. I had no say or control over my natural birth, I was simply born. Likewise, I am told by scripture that while I was still dead (dead bodies don't do a lot) and an enemy of God (enemies don't do a lot for God) and incapable of saving myself (which makes sense for a dead, enemy of God), GOD did a work. God loved me. God extended His grace and gave me faith. His faith in me, allowed me to "confess with [my] mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in [my] heart that God has raised Him from the dead, [I was] saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10). I am already saved.

I am already a member of the household of God:
Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

Since I am already a child of God, I do not NEED to labor to earn my inheritance or to perfect myself. Which is just as well since my best efforts are inadequate to the task. Rather, I can labor in the family business because I am a child of God. Because I am saved. Because I would not wish to bring shame on the family name that I have been given through adoption.

I can't be bothered meshing the replies I gave into your post so that they fit where you reply to them. It is time consuming and nobody is likely to read it very carefully anyway. That would explain why you had a cheer squad of "likes" for your post. Folk read the reply and think "gee he is right! three cheers for his rightness". I look at your reply and think "why doesn't he reply to what is written rather than replying to something that was not written but that he evidently thinks was meant". The truth is that Paul says that one is to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling while I said something less fearful and you found my mild form of Paul's statement so dreadful that you accuse me of teaching salvation by works. That is not what I teach nor what I believe. It is not what the Catholic Church teaches nor what Catholics believe. My statement was an answer you your question about when one does good works. You asked That taken together and believed, this makes works something we walk in after salvation and not before? and I replied "During salvation. Salvation is something one works out in life and something that reaches its fulfilment at the last judgement when the Lord declares to the faithful Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" So if my reply amounts to salvation by works then Paul's must be even more guilty of that allegation because he wrote "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." [SUP]Philippians 2:12[/SUP] The truth is that both Paul's statement and my reply reflect a theme present throughout the holy scriptures; namely that God gives grace to the faithful and the faithful are made alive in faith and good works by that grace. They walk in the good works and faith that God gives to them. It is God that is "enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." And it is God who calls the faithful to holiness. So you failed to find something in my posts that teaches salvation by works. There's a reason for your failure. I do not teach it. I do not believe it. And I do not write that one is saved by works because one is saved by grace and the grace that saves is God giving himself as Jesus Christ for the sins of the whole world.

PS: I can't help but think that referring to "your god" in your reply is shameful. Do you honestly think that God for Catholics is different from God for you? Please, no theological layers of paint. Just a blunt answer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, if we really want to be able to sling accusations of error and heracy, we should probably start a discussion on what Revelation REALLY means for the end times.
So does anyone have a special, private revelation that no other theologian has ever thought of? Those are always my favorite.

[Here is the best that I ever had explained to me: The key to understanding scripture is Ephesians 2:20 ("built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets") so everything in the Bible not written by an Apostle or Prophet is not part of the FOUNDATION of our faith ... it is a Tare sown by the enemy to confuse.]

We had a chap in this forum who was keen to tell us all that he was God or was a computer simulation that is God or something even more confusing. He didn't like me using the bible. Evidently is was a terrible evil for me to quote from the bible without citing the passage. I often quote from the bible without citation because I figure that I am writing to Christians who are familiar with the holy scripture and they will recognise the quotes. But I began to think I might be wrong so I included citations [SUP]like this[/SUP] but it didn't help. I even went to the extreme of replying by quoting passages of holy scripture to illustrate how my interlocutor was avoiding what is in holy scripture but that didn't work either. maybe the bible doesn't really matter in discussions. I know it doesn't count for much in end time debates. All the dispensationalism stuff! It's enough to drive anybody potty.

 

[atpollard]

PS: I can't help but think that referring to "your god" in your reply is shameful. Do you honestly think that God for Catholics is different from God for you? Please, no theological layers of paint. Just a blunt answer.

Blunt answer it is, then ...

You seem to go out of your way to take offense 'as a Catholic'.
No, I do not think that Catholics worship a different God. As a point of fact, I was converted from atheism to Christianity by Catholics and I hold many aspects of the Catholic Church in high regard.
I am far less convinced that the 'god' YOU describe is the God that I met in the Catholic Church.

Thus it may well have been shameful on my part, but it had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
At it's core, the issue is you see salvation as a long, slow process and I see it as an event (followed by the long, slow process of sanctification).
This difference in perspective on so fundamental a matter as salvation makes meaningful discussion all but impossible.

You are playing games with words, telling me in one post that the Catholic Church and you do not teach 'salvation by works', then telling me that works come 'during salvation' (not before or after) because "salvation is something one works out in life" (your words, not mine) and now you appeal to Paul's call to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.

SO WHAT EXACTLY DOES THE PERSON WORK OUT?
Can I be saved without my doing this 'work'?
How then is this not a 'work' necessary for 'salvation'? (Which is the definition of salvation by works.)
YOU (not the Catholic Church, but you personally) appear to be preaching salvation by 'grace and works' and playing word games to accuse everyone of misunderstanding you.

I invite you to explain without any thological layers of paint, but just a blunt answer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Blunt answer it is, then ...

You seem to go out of your way to take offense 'as a Catholic'.
No, I do not think that Catholics worship a different God. As a point of fact, I was converted from atheism to Christianity by Catholics and I hold many aspects of the Catholic Church in high regard.
I am far less convinced that the 'god' YOU describe is the God that I met in the Catholic Church.

Thus it may well have been shameful on my part, but it had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
At it's core, the issue is you see salvation as a long, slow process and I see it as an event (followed by the long, slow process of sanctification).
This difference in perspective on so fundamental a matter as salvation makes meaningful discussion all but impossible.

You are playing games with words, telling me in one post that the Catholic Church and you do not teach 'salvation by works', then telling me that works come 'during salvation' (not before or after) because "salvation is something one works out in life" (your words, not mine) and now you appeal to Paul's call to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.

SO WHAT EXACTLY DOES THE PERSON WORK OUT?
Can I be saved without my doing this 'work'?
How then is this not a 'work' necessary for 'salvation'? (Which is the definition of salvation by works.)
YOU (not the Catholic Church, but you personally) appear to be preaching salvation by 'grace and works' and playing word games to accuse everyone of misunderstanding you.

I invite you to explain without any theological layers of paint, but just a blunt answer.

I will not truncate your post though I was tempted to do so as you did with mine and I will give you a blunt answer. You asked Can I be saved without my doing this 'work'? the answer is no. You personally cannot. You are able to do good works if you want to and if you choose not to then you have no reliable reason to expect salvation from God. If you had asked can anybody be saved without doing good works? then the answer would be yes. Anybody who is not able to do good works who is, for example, hanging on a cross next to Jesus as the Lord is dying needs no good works beyond what he was able to do - speaking words of support about Jesus when the other thief accused Jesus and expressing trust and hope in Jesus. You still haven't pointed to anything I have written in CH that teaches salvation by works. And as I said before you are not going to find anything that I have written that teaches salvation by works because I do not believe it and I do not teach it and nor does the Catholic Church believe or teach it.