What sin did Mary do?

[MoreCoffee]

Surely the only sin mary committed was having a child by another man she wasn't married to..maybe

eeek!!!!!!!!!!

The scriptures say she was pregnant as a result of the Holy Spirit's action.

 

[Brighten04]

Blessed Mary was redeemed from the moment of her conception, she did not sin herself and the sin of origin (ancestral sin) was cleansed at her conception by an act of grace from God through Jesus Christ because Christ's atonement applies to all the children of Adam (and Eve) both those born after his crucifixion and those born before.

What scripture told you that?

 

[psalms 91]

I do not think it is speculative theology. It is dogmatic theology. It has apostolic tradition as its basis.

In other words ignore scripture

 

[MoreCoffee]

In other words ignore scripture

It's not possible to "ignore scripture" on a matter about which the scriptures say very little but apostolic tradition is not a subset of holy scripture rather it is the other way around holy scripture is a proper subset of apostolic tradition meaning that scripture contains fewer revelations from God than were received by the apostles and the prophets etcetera of the old testament.

 

[Josiah]

I do not think it is speculative theology. It is dogmatic theology. It has apostolic tradition as its basis.

Quote even one Apostle speculating all you did..... If you want to state pure, baseless speculation and then imply it's exempt from accountability and truth cuz you exempt your own speculations from such - okay, but don't drag the Apostles into this!

If you have pure OPINION about these things, that's okay... all are entitled to their opinions.... but you state it as if you had anything whatsoever to support it (and then drag some unnamed Apostle into it). THAT'S what I find.... disconcerting. And THAT'S what I think undermines a LOT of Catholicism (which again is too bad because much of what Catholics say is sound and valid - but dismissed because all know how Catholics just say stuff and so don't consider it).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Quote even one Apostle speculating all you did..... If you want to state pure, baseless speculation and then imply it's exempt from accountability and truth cuz you exempt your own speculations from such - okay, but don't drag the Apostles into this!

If you have pure OPINION about these things, that's okay... all are entitled to their opinions.... but you state it as if you had anything whatsoever to support it (and then drag some unnamed Apostle into it). THAT'S what I find.... disconcerting. And THAT'S what I think undermines a LOT of Catholicism (which again is too bad because much of what Catholics say is sound and valid - but dismissed because all know how Catholics just say stuff and so don't consider it).

The early church fathers' expressions on the subject of the sinlessness of Mary are so ample and so absolute that they imply that Blessed Mary's sinlessness included both original sin as well as actual sins.

 

[Rens]

The early church fathers' expressions on the subject of the sinlessness of Mary are so ample and so absolute that they imply that Blessed Mary's sinlessness included both original sin as well as actual sins.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. She did need His sacrifice too.
Romans 5

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

 

[psalms 91]

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. She did need His sacrifice too.
Romans 5

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Exactly.as I said, it goes against scripture to say that

 

[MoreCoffee]

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. She did need His sacrifice too.
Romans 5

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

nobody denies that who holds orthodox Catholic opinion.

 

[psalms 91]

nobody denies that who holds orthodox Catholic opinion.

And then you wonder why people find Catholics confusing in their doctrine and deceitful in their words. On the one hand you confirm the scriptures that Rens posted and on the other a few posts back deny them by claiming that Mary was sinless

 

[Josiah]

It has apostolic tradition as its basis

Quote even one Apostle speculating all you did..... If you want to state pure, baseless speculation and then imply it's exempt from accountability and truth cuz you exempt your own speculations from such - okay, but don't drag the Apostles into this!

The early church fathers' expressions on the subject of the sinlessness of Mary are so ample and so absolute that they imply that Blessed Mary's sinlessness included both original sin as well as actual sins.[/I]

So you stated a falsehood... there's NOTHING from the Apostles about Mary being sinless, NOTHING from ANY Apostle - not one - to confirm a word you so boldly (but with NOTHING to support) stated about Mary.

There's NOTHING in Scripture that remotely speculates as you do.... there's NOTHING from ANY Apostle that speculates as you do..... NOTHING.


Again, CH welcomes people to speculate and opinionate all they want - no matter how baseless or absurd - there's no requirement to support such but of course we all note when NOTHING does support the speculation. But don't drag the Apostles into your wild speculations when you admit you have NOTHING from ANY of them to indicate they shared your opinion.

If you have pure speculation, pure OPINION about these things, that's okay... all are entitled to their opinions.... but you state it as if you had anything whatsoever to support it (and then drag some unnamed Apostle into it). THAT'S what I find.... disconcerting. And THAT'S what I think undermines a LOT of Catholicism (which again is too bad because much of what Catholics say is sound and valid - but dismissed because all know how Catholics just say stuff and so don't consider it).


To the point: I don't know that I document any sin by Mary. But that's entirely unrelated it thereby being a dogmatic fact of highest certainty that THEREFORE she was void of sin (from conception on). To indicate such would be laughable and absurd and would entirely discredit me. As some have pointed out, Scripture speaks of sin in very universal ways (and I find no reason to disbelieve Scripture on that)... but we know there is at least one exception (albeit that ONE is not ONLY human..... His divine nature "communicating" with His human) but we have a Scripture that specifically states He was without sin. We have nothing of the sort for Mary or the Pope or Stalin or you or me.



A blessed Epiphany to you and yours...



- Josiah

 

[Pedrito]

How about this...

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death...”

Mary is no longer with us.

Therefore Mary died.

(Any bodily assumption would have been somewhat unusual one could assume, and one could further assume that had Mary departed that way, it would have been big news. One could be forgiven therefore, for wondering why the earliest expression of that idea appears to be around 300AD, even if it is claimed to be one of the "apostolic traditions".)


Doesn't that mean that the contemplation of what one specific sin Mary might have committed, seems rather pointless?

 

[Wilhemena]

How about this...

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death...”

Mary is no longer with us.

Therefore Mary died.

(Any bodily assumption would have been somewhat unusual one could assume, and one could further assume that had Mary departed that way, it would have been big news. One could be forgiven therefore, for wondering why the earliest expression of that idea appears to be around 300AD, even if it is claimed to be one of the "apostolic traditions".)


Doesn't that mean that the contemplation of what one specific sin Mary might have committed, seems rather pointless?

Indeed. We know that sin still pervades in humankind because we experience that sting of death and even the holy mother of God died as I too shall someday when my time comes and the Lord takes me home to be with him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And then you wonder why people find Catholics confusing in their doctrine and deceitful in their words. On the one hand you confirm the scriptures that Rens posted and on the other a few posts back deny them by claiming that Mary was sinless

Blessed Mary is and always was without the disfiguring mark of sin. That is an affirmation of holy scripture and no denial. Perhaps for you it seems like a denial because for you Blessed Mary is just a woman of no special significance - except that she happened to be the mother of the Lord. For me Blessed Mary is the virgin daughter of Jerusalem who bears the child that God promised as saviour of his people from their captivity in sin. She is fair and beautiful because God made her so. She is blessed because the Holy One made her so. He resided in her womb and was born in due time and his grace was given to her so that Blessed Mary could be the promised daughter of Jerusalem. And if her lack of sinful deeds bothers anybody let them seek God and grasp the faith ore firmly. That is a message of hope - that a frail human woman could bear the creator of all things in her womb and give birth to our Salvation. That is a message full of hope and blessing and truth and beauty to make the hearts of the faithful sing.

 

[psalms 91]

Blessed Mary is and always was without the disfiguring mark of sin. That is an affirmation of holy scripture and no denial. Perhaps for you it seems like a denial because for you Blessed Mary is just a woman of no special significance - except that she happened to be the mother of the Lord. For me Blessed Mary is the virgin daughter of Jerusalem who bears the child that God promised as saviour of his people from their captivity in sin. She is fair and beautiful because God made her so. She is blessed because the Holy One made her so. He resided in her womb and was born in due time and his grace was given to her so that Blessed Mary could be the promised daughter of Jerusalem. And if her lack of sinful deeds bothers anybody let them seek God and grasp the faith ore firmly. That is a message of hope - that a frail human woman could bear the creator of all things in her womb and give birth to our Salvation is a message full of hope and blessing and truth and beauty to make the hearts of the faithful sing.

I do see her as special and blessed but not sinless which is how I would venture most christians see her

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do see her as special and blessed but not sinless which is how I would venture most christians see her

What do you make of these statements - they are not about Blessed Mary.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Can you reconcile them?

 

[psalms 91]

Of course you can and as one who seems to know scripture well you know the answer. Perfect does not mean sinless

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course you can and as one who seems to know scripture well you know the answer. Perfect does not mean sinless

Perfect doesn't mean sinless? Why do you say that? What is sinless in your vocabulary?

I ought to remind you I didn't say anybody was sinless except for the Lord Jesus Christ. But that fact may have been missed by you.

 

[psalms 91]

OK I thought somewhere in all these threads you said Mary remaioned sinless, am I wrong in that?

 

[Lamb]

Perfect doesn't mean sinless? Why do you say that? What is sinless in your vocabulary?

I ought to remind you I didn't say anybody was sinless except for the Lord Jesus Christ. But that fact may have been missed by you.

In post 34 you said this:

Blessed Mary is and always was without the disfiguring mark of sin.

Could you explain the difference of your two statements then?