What sin did Mary do?

[MoreCoffee]

Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

That's what some biblical translations say. How does highly favored equate to being sinless?

"highly favoured" is a case of sectarian bias in translation.

:smirk:

 

[tango]

Nobody says that the Blessed Virgin Mary is sinless as Christ was sinless. The contrary is maintained. Namely that Blessed Mary was preserved free from the stain of original sin and that she committed no sins in her daily life yet it is acknowledged that Blessed Mary was born of the seed of Adam and hence was affected by original sin albeit that she was preserved from the harm that original sin works in human character and thus free from the stain of original sin. There is too much confusion in the way this topic is approached because people who oppose Mary's immaculate conception do so without knowing either what "immaculate conception" means or what Original sin (also called ancestral sin) means.

On what basis do you claim that Mary was free from original sin, and on what basis do you claim that she committed no sin during her life? How would you differentiate her from Jesus Christ in that regard, given that Jesus was also born of the seed of Adam (his family line is traced right back to Adam and God in Luke 3:23-38).

 

[MoreCoffee]

On what basis do you claim that Mary was free from original sin, and on what basis do you claim that she committed no sin during her life?

The teaching of the Catholic Church is the first place I go and then to the sources that they cite in the writings of the Early Church Fathers and also in the holy scriptures. The scriptures do not make too many explicit statements about anybody's sins/sinlessness but there are passages that give hints or point the way and the early church fathers refer to them and develop their theology from them and from what they were taught by the apostles or by bishops who heard the apostles and so forth.

How would you differentiate her from Jesus Christ in that regard, given that Jesus was also born of the seed of Adam (his family line is traced right back to Adam and God in Luke 3:23-38).

Jesus Christ is God and that makes him fundamentally unlike any creature yet God chose to become a man and share human nature (albeit his nature was not corrupted by original or actual sins). Mary was born of fully human parents and was not God (I don't know anybody who says she was) so her state with reference to sins is a matter of graces given to her. She was born without the disfiguring marks left by original sin so in this matter she is unlike any human beings except for Adam and Eve. Mary didn't perform any actual sins so she shares this characteristic with some who are mentioned in the holy scriptures like Enoch and possibly Job others no doubt also lived lives of virtue because of the graces given to them by God.

 

[Josiah]

The teaching of the Catholic Church is the first place I go

As genuine Catholics do - docilicly swallowing whole WHATEVER the individual, singular RC Denomination currently says BECAUSE it itself currently does. I like it when Catholics are honest about that. What I tend to challenge is whether that ERGO makes it true (or more to the point, exempt from truthfulness). And what I note is how upset Catholics are when others do as they do: swallow whole and faithfully parrot whatever their denomination, cult, preacher says BECAUSE such tells them to and because such currently does.

Friend, NO ONE here disputes that the individual, singular RC Denomination now has a unique, new, de fide dogma (from 1854 if my memory serves me) - one no other church on the planet Earth in all history agrees with: the Immaculate Conception of Mary. And yes, accepting your rubric that a person should just docilicly swallow whole WHATEVER a teacher/denomination/cult currently says because it itself alone currently does, then swallowing and parroting that new, unique Dogma of the individual RC Denomination is in accord with the rubric you consider binding. No one disputes that.

But friend, this is not CA. The point here is NOT to try to accurately parrot whatever the singular, individual RC Denomination currently says cuz it itself alone does - and thus such is exempt from any consideration of truthfulness. No. This is an ecumenical discussion forum... and you should (by now) be aware that non-Catholics are often interested in the issue of truth (especially for De Fide Dogma). The RCC adopted this to made mandated a unique view of it itself as a matter of highest importance possible and greatest certainty possible, but also to condemn and anathmatize all who reject it, to divide Christianity. Some would tend to think that if you are going to support a matter you claim is one of highest importance possible, greatest certainty possible, one we MUST believe and to knowingly reject it could well mean Hell awaits, to divide Christianity at the most deep level... well, you SHOULD have something pretty solid, certainly more than "Well.... one individual, singular denomination claimed it is De Fide Dogma in 1854 and the self-same denomination tells me to doclicly swallow whole whatever it itself alone says cuz it does. You won't accept that from others, you give such ZERO credibility from others - so.... well, that whole log/speck thing, that whole pot/kettle thing.

The scriptures do not make too many explicit statements about anybody's sins/sinlessness

Actually, it does. It says ALL (humans) have sinned. And it makes ONE exception (although such is not only human): Jesus. Just because the only God/Man is specifically stated as without sin does NOT mean that ERGO one can document as a matter of greatest certainty possible that Donald Trump or Martin Luther or King Henry VIII or Joseph Stalin were conceived without original sin and remained sinless. Friend, it's just absurd. It's an argument you'd NEVER accept from anyone so why should any accept it from you?

they were taught by the apostles

Quote any one of the 13-14 Apostles stating that Mary was conceived without original sin and remained sinless.....

Jesus Christ is God and that makes him fundamentally unlike any creature

A good basis to claim that Jesus is UNIQUE. You might even go on to claim thus HE was sinless. But of course, Scripture states that. Where does it state that Mary was also sinless (perhaps because she too is both, fully, equally GOD and MAN?)

Mary was born of fully human parents and was not God (I don't know anybody who says she was) so her state with reference to sins is a matter of graces given to her.

"HER" didn't exist before her conception (Catholics do not believe in the preexistence of human souls). So, the RCC could not have "given" her something before she was conceived. It's absolutely illogical.

If you can find something that says, "on day X of her development in the womb, God forgave her of her sinful nature." Okay - just provide that quote from God. But then you'd be denouncing your denomination's dogma - which is not that Mary was forgiven or stripped of her sinful nature but that she was CONCEIVED without such a nature.



- Josiah