Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time

psalms 91

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Nor can you be in the body without that one on one relationship, and that is individual, we come together to lift up and edify one another and yes to learn but the true experience is the one on one experience
 

MoreCoffee

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Nor can you be in the body without that one on one relationship, and that is individual, we come together to lift up and edify one another and yes to learn but the true experience is the one on one experience

Nope, it is corporate. One cannot have a relationship and be alone.
 

visionary

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Nope, it is corporate. One cannot have a relationship and be alone.

We are talking about a relationship with God... that is never alone.
 

visionary

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Here is more evidence that Yeshua is God.

Numbers 21:5 The people spoke against God and Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food."6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. This is what was later referenced in the new testament as a warning.

1 Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
 

Pedrito

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... Continued


Let's review some more scripture offered by Lämmchen in support of the notion that Jesus was 100% God when He walked the Earth.

In Matthew 28:18 (proffered by Lämmchen) Jesus said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

And that verse raises the question: by whom was power given to Jesus? And why was it necessary for it to be given?

Ephesians 1:17-21 [emphasis mine]:
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 2:9-11:
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now, if we look at Ephesians 1:17 and Philippians 2:9 and 2:11, do we maybe get a hint about how the Jews (including Jesus Himself and the apostles) understood and used the terms “God the Father” and “The Father”?

If we look at what God revealed of Himself in the “Old Testament”, described by Paul as “able to make thee wise unto salvation”, could God’s definition of those terms there be actually different from how they are defined and used in general Christendom?


I request of Lämmchen and Josiah (in particular, as well as others who may like to participate) that they actually investigate what God clearly revealed about Himself in His Inspired Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") regarding this matter, and report their findings back to the rest of us.


Continued ...
 
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Lamb

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Our God is triune, three in ONE. He is one God but because God the Father gives power to God the Son doesn't not negate the fact that He is still 1 God. Nor does it negate the fact that God the Son is 100% man and 100% God at the same time. Your observations fall flat.
 

Josiah

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I request of Lämmchen and Josiah (in particular, as well as others who may like to participate) that they actually investigate what God clearly revealed about Himself in His Inspired Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") regarding this matter, and report their findings back to the rest of us.


I don't limit myself to just the Old Testament (If I did, I'd be a Jew and not a Christian). I accept the New Testament as Scripture, too. I would agree that the Old Testament is not clear as to the two inseparable natures of Christ but then again, I don't reject the New Testament, I rather accept it.

I already gave the Scriptures. They affirm that God is one and that God is three. They affirm the full divinity of Christ as well as the full humanity of Christ. You can reject or disbelieve what Scripture says, of course, but it is clear what Scripture says.




Josiah said:

TWO Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1 ff [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
[9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - I had."


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: CHRIST is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us"


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.



- Josiah




.
 
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Pedrito

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May I point out, before I get started, that both Lämmchen and Josiah have avoided the question (important consideration) of what God actually revealed about Himself via Divine Inspiration. (See Post 205 on Page 21).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... Continued

Yet more scripture offered by Lämmchen in support of the notion that Jesus was 100% God when He walked the Earth.

From Lämmchen's Post #4 on Page 1:


Revelation 1:5
Revelation 1:5:
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Once again, Jesus' rulership was granted to Him after He was begotten from the dead.

Philippians 2:9-11:
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Not to mention Ephesians 1:17-21. (See Post #205.)

Who exalted Him? When? And why did He need exalting iif he was already 100% God?


Revelation 19:16
Revelation 19:16:
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Philippians 2:9-11 applies here as well. As does Ephesians 1:17-21. (See questions a few lines above.)


Notice: so far we haven't seen even one verse that actually supports the premise that Jesus was (or even is) God.

But there are more verses yet to review. Let's see what they reveal.


Continued ...
 

Rens

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... Continued


Let's review some more scripture offered by Lämmchen in support of the notion that Jesus was 100% God when He walked the Earth.

In Matthew 28:18 (proffered by Lämmchen) Jesus said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

And that verse raises the question: by whom was power given to Jesus? And why was it necessary for it to be given?

Ephesians 1:17-21 [emphasis mine]:

Philippians 2:9-11:


Now, if we look at Ephesians 1:17 and Philippians 2:9 and 2:11, do we maybe get a hint about how the Jews (including Jesus Himself and the apostles) understood and used the terms “God the Father” and “The Father”?

If we look at what God revealed of Himself in the “Old Testament”, described by Paul as “able to make thee wise unto salvation”, could God’s definition of those terms there be actually different from how they are defined and used in general Christendom?


I request of Lämmchen and Josiah (in particular, as well as others who may like to participate) that they actually investigate what God clearly revealed about Himself in His Inspired Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") regarding this matter, and report their findings back to the rest of us.


Continued ...

He also said in John 2
Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 

Rens

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Isaiah 43:10

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
(Savior: Messiah)
 

MoreCoffee

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Isaiah 43:10

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
(Savior: Messiah)

Dutch people ought to use English spelling! It is saviour :p
 

Lamb

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May I point out, before I get started, that both Lämmchen and Josiah have avoided the question (important consideration) of what God actually revealed about Himself via Divine Inspiration. (See Post 205 on Page 21).

The question of what God actually revealed via Divine Inspiration has been already quoted numerous times in this thread. Nothing is being avoided. See Josiah's long list of scripture.
 

MoreCoffee

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The question of what God actually revealed via Divine Inspiration has been already quoted numerous times in this thread. Nothing is being avoided. See Josiah's long list of scripture.

When Jesus said "No one knows except the Father in Heaven. no not the Son of Man nor the angels ...". IN what way is it consistent for a man who is 100% God not to know?
 

Josiah

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He is also 100% man.

And He is not 100% BLENDED product - no longer man or God but a third and different reality.

Read the Athanasian Creed.
 

MoreCoffee

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He is also 100% man.

And He is not 100% BLENDED product - no longer man or God but a third and different reality.

Read the Athanasian Creed.

How do you mean "no longer man or God "?
 

Josiah

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How do you mean "no longer man or God "?

The BLENDED view that I rejected holds that Jesus is no longer fully man or fully God but some third reality. As I indicated, I reject that.

Read the Athanasian Creed.
 

MoreCoffee

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The BLENDED view that I rejected holds that Jesus is no longer fully man or fully God but some third reality. As I indicated, I reject that.

Read the Athanasian Creed.

That's a relief.

But how, exactly is it possible for Jesus to not know something that God the Father knows?
 

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That's a relief.

But how, exactly is it possible for Jesus to not know something that God the Father knows?

Jesus was connecting it to a traditional Jewish wedding where the father of the groom was the only one who knew the day and time of the wedding. Now you ask how that is possible since He is God so the answer lies in the knowledge of the trinity and we see this in the Athanasian creed.

Here is an excellent article and a snip: http://steadfastlutherans.org/2012/09/qa-what-does-jesus-know/
So where do we turn when the distinctions of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit seem to contradict that they are all God? We turn to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The proper answer to this question, and all question concerning the equality of the three Persons, lies in who God is. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He does not simply reveal Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the Blessed Trinity are equal in their divinity. They are all Eternal, Almighty, Infinite, Uncreated, Lord and God. Yet there are not three Eternals, three Almighties, three Infinites, three Uncreated, three Lords, or three Gods, but one Eternal, Almighty, Infinite, Uncreated Lord and God, as we confess in the Athanasian Creed.

But as much as the Athanasian Creed confesses and affirms that the Blessed Trinity is one God, it also confesses and affirms that the three Persons are not the same. There are not three Fathers or three Sons or three Holy Spirits, but one Father and one Son and one Holy Spirit. And the Father is not made nor created nor begotten, and the Son is not made or created but begotten, and the Holy Spirit is not made, created, or begotten but proceeding.
 

popsthebuilder

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Jesus was connecting it to a traditional Jewish wedding where the father of the groom was the only one who knew the day and time of the wedding. Now you ask how that is possible since He is God so the answer lies in the knowledge of the trinity and we see this in the Athanasian creed.

Here is an excellent article and a snip: http://steadfastlutherans.org/2012/09/qa-what-does-jesus-know/
That is parable relating to GOD alone knowing the time because it is indeed in HIS time, and by HIS will alone.

Why are you using a creed to define what is in the Bible? Wouldn't a creed be developed from scripture? And then, if so, is it not circular logic for it to also be used to define scripture?

Peace

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Lamb

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That is parable relating to GOD alone knowing the time because it is indeed in HIS time, and by HIS will alone.

Why are you using a creed to define what is in the Bible? Wouldn't a creed be developed from scripture? And then, if so, is it not circular logic for it to also be used to define scripture?

Peace

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All three creeds used by Christians (Nicene, Apostles, Athanasian) are from scripture.
 
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