Oh Hell!!!

[visionary]

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11-14 ...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

John 11:23,24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

 

[visionary]

A favored verse that is used to try and prove there is life after death immediate is...

2 Corinthians 5:8, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

But look how he used the same terms ...

1 Corinthians 5:3, "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,"

Colossians 2:5, "For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ."

 

[visionary]

Don't people go to Hell or Heaven at the moment of death?

Matthew 25:31-33, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

 

[visionary]

-------------snipped for convenience------------------
i know hell exists i know hell is real . i know a man i trust (and these days more then one ) who has died and returned and his testimony convinces me as do many other testimonies who have nothing to gain by fabricating such a testimony .
i have heard fabricated testimonies and they cause me such sorrow .. as to fabricate such testimony would be to bare a false witness .

but i do not know (as in comprehend ) the true nature of the place in its eternal context ( and truly do not desire to as it is a place cut off from god who is all things GOOD )
but the question among others remains ..
if eternal life is to know God and be with him in full unity forever .. then eternal death is to be estranged from him - forever . for to say that this estrangement ends in non existence ..would be to say that unity ends in non existence .. for if there is not eternity for one there is not eternity at all .

(see what i did there .?.i ended the post by getting back on the topic rather then pursuing the rabbit hole topic of the errors of judaism )

I know how powerful the NDE testimonies are. But when you study scripture for your foundation, then the testimonies have falsies. There is no specific scriptural support for near-death experiences. We need to be extremely careful in how we validate our experiences. The most important test of any experience is comparing it with the Bible. Satan is always ready to cause deception and twist people's thinking.

2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What is the first lie? what would be the strongest delusion? And near death experiences are suppose to be our proof that there is life immediately after death.....Many who have NDEs talk about encountering a being, or beings, of light, who they believe are the dead, angels, or even God Himself. Yet in almost all cases these personalities never teach them the most generic biblical truths. Instead, they utter comforting platitudes about love, peace, and goodness, but nothing about sin, the need of Christ’s atoning blood, or the coming judgment. One would think that while supposedly getting a taste of the Christian afterlife, they would have gotten a taste of Christian truth, not a bunch of goofy New Age sentimentality. No wonder most of those who had NDEs come away less inclined toward Christianity than they were before having “died.” Despite these and other obvious problems, many Christians see these NDEs as infomercials of life after death and an affirmation of their faith.

 

[psalms 91]

There is a heaven and a hell and many have had out of body experiences and no not all of them are wrong by any means

 

[psalms 91]

I know how powerful the NDE testimonies are. But when you study scripture for your foundation, then the testimonies have falsies. There is no specific scriptural support for near-death experiences. We need to be extremely careful in how we validate our experiences. The most important test of any experience is comparing it with the Bible. Satan is always ready to cause deception and twist people's thinking.

2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What is the first lie? what would be the strongest delusion? And near death experiences are suppose to be our proof that there is life immediately after death.....Many who have NDEs talk about encountering a being, or beings, of light, who they believe are the dead, angels, or even God Himself. Yet in almost all cases these personalities never teach them the most generic biblical truths. Instead, they utter comforting platitudes about love, peace, and goodness, but nothing about sin, the need of Christ’s atoning blood, or the coming judgment. One would think that while supposedly getting a taste of the Christian afterlife, they would have gotten a taste of Christian truth, not a bunch of goofy New Age sentimentality. No wonder most of those who had NDEs come away less inclined toward Christianity than they were before having “died.” Despite these and other obvious problems, many Christians see these NDEs as infomercials of life after death and an affirmation of their faith.

Who was it that the angels escorted to heaven? As real as what the bible says.

 

[visionary]

Who was it that the angels escorted to heaven? As real as what the bible says.

escorted... when?

 

[Alithis]

What was the devil's first lie?
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

and this is eternal life..that they might know you... (speaking of the father).. so we see eternal life is "knowing" god.. so what is eternal death. ?

 

[Pedrito]

In Post # 74 on Page 8, Alithis quoted Jesus thus:

and this is eternal life ..that may know thee the one true god .

That is an interesting quote.

That is an extract from John 17:3:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So, Jesus is personally addressing the only true God – the Only True God – the Being that Jesus stated had sent Him.

I find that interesting.

Was Jesus therefore (especially as a Jew) addressing the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, and the Prophets? (Jesus was Jewish.) He was obviously addressing a Being separate from Himself.

I ask Alithis, and anyone else who would like to help him out, just what was Jesus' understanding (as a Jew, and as compatible with the existing Sacred Writings From God) of who the One True God actually was?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I notice Alithis annotated Jesus' words, in Post #88 on Page 9, thus (emphasis added):

and this is eternal life..that they might know you... (speaking of the father)

So if the father is acknowledged by Jesus as being the only true God, where does that leave Jesus and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God)?

In fact, Alithis may be closer to the truth than he realises. If anyone is game, let them look into the Scriptures that were in existence at Jesus' time, and which He acknowledged to be true, and see what they say about God and His Fathership.

On second thought, maybe Alithis and others should not look into the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures. They may find some truth there that they will feel compelled to reject.

And I do so hate to see God's Holy Scripture maligned.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post # 74 on Page 8, Alithis, after defining the Only True God to whom Jesus spoke to as a separate being, thus (emphasis added):

and this is eternal life..that they might know you... (speaking of the father)

followed up with:

so we see eternal life is "knowing" god

I would like to ask a simple question. Is the God whom we must know to escape going to Hell:
- the Only True God to whom Jesus spoke as a separate Being – the Only True God who revealed Himself in His Inspired Hebrew Scriptures, the truth of which Jesus acknowledged and believed; or
- the multiplex God progressively defined by post-apostolic church councils; or
- one part of the multiplex God progressively defined by post-apostolic church councils?


Easy to ask. And (I suggest) easy to answer from God's Holy Revelation.

But could that answer be unacceptable for people of a certain doctrinal persuasion to acknowledge?

Could it not be considered a pity for them, that Paul wrote in Romans 3:1,2:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 

[Cassia]

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

To be in the true God is to be in His Son Jesus Christ. John 15:4; Ephesians 3:17-19; Romans 8:11; 1 John 4:13; Psalm 133:1
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true God. The abiding of God within is the first mystery of God which the church is privy to. 1 John 2:20-27

Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,

Romans 3:1-20
God’s Faithfulness
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.
As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”]
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
No One Is Righteous
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

 

[Pedrito]

I think we owe Cassia a vote of thanks.

In her apparent attempt (Post #91 on Page 10) to nullify, or diminish, the highly significant meaning of Paul's words in Romans 3:1-2, she has actually highlighted that significance.

She first presented Romans 3:1-2:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

She then presented the rest of Chapter 3, and showed conclusively and correctly that Verse 3 onwards deal with Pauls' explaining that being Jewish in that time, gave a person no advantage with respect to qualifying to become a member of the church.

But with the emphasis given in her post, the intention seems to be to draw people's attention away from Paul's clear statement in Verses 1 and 2.

In Verses 1 and 2 Paul is stating the clear and definite advantage a Jew who became a Christian had, with their grounding in the Inspired Scriptures they were familiar with, over a pagan who had become a Christian with their background of pagan thought and religious conditioning.

(If I am mistaken about Cassia's intention, then I ask her to accept my apology, and ask her to state clearly in a subsequent post that she agrees that Paul was describing the advantage in understanding that a Jewish Christian had over a Christian of Pagan background.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All too often, Christians in our day are taught to feel uncomfortable with the “Old Testament”. An important reason is, whether admitted by the Leadership (and the organisationally-committed) or not, that the Leadership etc. recognise that that portion of God's Inspired Holy Revelation contains statements that (appear to, at least) contradict some of the beliefs that many churches hold dear.

That is especially so if verses or verse sets which contain ideas that are mutually conflicting as translated, are viewed from the perspective of the people whose original language it was translated from. (That's true of the “New Testament” too.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore, church followers are often prone to throw into bad light in any way they can, anything that would highlight the importance of those Inspired Scriptures given to God's chosen physical nation.

So easily overlooked are the apostle Paul's inspired statements regarding the absolute importance and authority of those “Jewish” Scriptures. (2 Timothy 3:15-17)


Could we in fact be ignoring them to our peril? Could those “Jewish” Scriptures in fact clarify which of the many conflicting doctrines and practices found in Christendom today, are correct, and which are not?

Should we find out?[/color]

 

[visionary]

Many are under a really bad impression that the Holy Spirit is a celestial being that possesses conscious thought. The sad fact of the matter is that the English words "Holy Spirit" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew words "Ruach HaKodesh." A more correct translation is "The Sacred Breath," being the breath that proceeds forth from the Heavenly Father's mouth to sustain all life here on the earth: "For the Spirit of Elohim has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33:4, NLT). Such a mistranslation devalues the idea that the Heavenly Father sustains us with life with his own breath.

As for me, I know that I live because of the fact that the Heavenly Father breathes his Sacred Breath into my body. The day that I stop breathing is the day that the Heavenly Father withholds his breath from me. That breath returns to the Father who gives it.

We cannot see it with the naked eye; however, any well educated individual knows that the spirit primarily consists of the atmospheric elements that we breath, chiefly being Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide. This is the reason why the Hebrew term ruach can easily be translated as either breath or wind, because the wind consists of the very same elements as the breath is. Pure Holy Breath of God charges up the mind and body for Holy thinking and activities. Without it, we do not live.

Because of the fact that when the Holy Spirit comes upon us in His Purity, our thoughts and minds are opened up in ways that can only be His Eminence can, I think that a lot of people experience this "born again" and it opens their eyes, ears, and understanding to His Spirit moving in all matters of life.

 

[Pedrito]

I penned this before, but forgot to post it. Better late than never. Important principles.

MoreCoffee in Post #36 on Page 4, addressing visionary, stated:

You could have lifted the whole "presentation" of your studies from one of the publications of Jehovah's witnesses. Take a look at their Insight on the Scriptures it's a two volume "bible encyclopaedia" that they give away if you want one. It says almost exactly the same things you do.

Here we see the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card played again.

I think it only fair to admit that the writings of the Roman Catholic Church from which MoreCoffee has quoted often enough, do contain some vestiges of the original Apostolic Gospel, despite all the additions and deletions they contain that conflict with the teachings of the apostles and those of Jesus himself.

I further think that the writings of many Protestant churches also contain elements of the original Apostolic Gospel, despite those churches lamentably embracing unscriptural concepts such as “the age of accountability” (sometimes termed “the age of responsibility” etc.), to support their official doctrines.

I therefore cannot help but wonder whether or not the writings of often-reviled organisations such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, etc., might in fact also contain elements of the original Apostolic Gospel.

For instance, among the doctrines of those example organisations (one or the other or both), might we see that the unscriptural (and therefore non-Apostolic) concept of “the age of accountability” is in fact commendably missing?


I think it high time that the concepts and detail being offered by visionary, be addressed directly, and refuted point by point from Scripture, if that is indeed possible.


I find the repeated playing of the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card to be a convenient cop-out in that regard. I also find it rather tiresome.

 

[visionary]

"Hades" occurs 11 times in the King's Textus Receptus. When I studied "Hades," it was triggered by the statement found in Acts 2:27 that said Yeshua was in "Hell." Can you picture Yeshua' in "hell-fire" withering in pain like some of those Gothic pictures?

I think this question needs to be repeated.

 

[psalms 91]

Passing through or being in? Yes, He went to hell to set the captives free and to takie paradise to heaven, He was not affected by but the sin on Him was, it was burned up

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #96 on Page 10 regarding Jesus and Hell, psalms 91 stated [emphasis mine]:

Passing through or being in? Yes, He went to hell to set the captives free and to takie paradise to heaven, He was not affected by but the sin on Him was, it was burned up

Is it too much to request that psalms 91 provide Scriptural evidence for that statement?

 

[Pedrito]

This was also penned some time ago. Does it not address an important issue?

Alithis, in Post #45 on Page 5, asked of visionary:

Can we start the discussion with a summary then?
Are you saying there is no hell..?
or..
where is death thrown in the last judgment.
for it says jesus suffered death for us. not that he was thrown in the place that was made for the devil.

I find that to be a rather jumbled question. However ...

Why ask visionary where death is thrown?

Doesn't God's Holy Inspired Revelation tell us?

Revelation 20:14,15:

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I must confess I do find it difficult to comprehend how death and hell (Hades) can be writhing and screaming in agony along with the people who are stated to be their companions.

Might it be that God's Holy Inspired Revelation actually suggests a different meaning?

 

[Pedrito]

While we’re at it...

Alithis, Post #39 Page 5

Quote Originally Posted by visionary
I believe it is the death at the final judgment as the people gather around the Camp of God and hear their judgment.

i can only assume you hold to the thought that the second death leads
to a state of non existance?

i dont hold that thought myself.
there is no scripture to anchor it to that im aware of.

May I offer the suggestion that God's Holy Hebrew Scriptures, God's inspired revelation to His chosen physical people, a revelation which He had preserved as meaningful for us, may hold the key to resolving many issues?

2 Timothy 3:15-17:

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

At that time, the only Scriptures available were what Christendom calls the Old Testament.

Acts 9:20-22:

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Clearly, Saul was confounding the Jews from their own Scriptures. Was he not?


Continued ...

 

[Rens]

I think this question needs to be repeated.

He was not in a lake of fire. He preached there to those from before the flood. In those youtube videos where people saw hell like that He just walked there too.
He wasn't suffering in hell. He suffered on the cross and said: it is finished. He put the sins to death in His flesh on the cross and the high priest Josiah got a new robe in heaven.