Oh Hell!!!

[visionary]

And in all that again we a reference to an eternalburning.
I know that when we die the first death we are a spirit without a body .. This spirit is of god but if not redeemed then eternally cast from his presence. The spiritual fire which such spirits are cast into does not appear to end ,nor does thier torment.
Just as those redeemed do not ever cease to know everlasting peace.



Sent from my LG-V500 using Tapatalk

This spiritual torment... where do you find it in scriptures?

 

[Pedrito]

I was expecting a response like that found in Post #16 on Page 2. (Have a look at it.) I had actually come across that sort of thing before. Many times.

As a general and highly consistent rule, whenever a solid investigation is undertaken into what the Holy Inspired Scriptures actually state, and that investigation results in ideas that appear to challenge existing cherished beliefs, something highly predictable can be expected.

Someone just has to throw in an emotional Joker card designed to discourage Readers from seriously considering the information presented. (That goes for Hearers as well.)

The Joker card is thrown when the thought of allowing people free reign to investigate the unwelcome and threatening ideas laid out before them, is deemed too dangerous.

Dangerous? Only if those ideas might appear more Scriptural than the cherished beliefs.


Therefore, shouldn't any use of an emotional Joker card, actually prompt Readers to sit up and take a closer look at the information being targeted?


Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

... Continued


In this instance we have visionary (in Posts ranging from #1 to #15) presenting interesting ideas based on what appears to be a reasonably in-depth analysis of scripture and a sound understanding of the background culture, thought processes and word meanings of the day.

Does not a proper understanding of both what Jesus meant by His words, and what His hearers knew He meant by His words, have importance? Could that proper understanding provide noteworthy, even essential, insights for believers in our day – believers whose understanding has depended at least in part, upon time-distant, gentile interpretations?

But what was the predictable response?

Someone threw in the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card.

Gee, this thread is like reading propaganda from Jehovah's witnesses against "hell fire".

(Shudder, shudder. Quick! Close your mind! Jehovah's Witnesses are scary.)

As if that wasn't enough to discourage people from sensibly investigating visionary's offerings, the Poster also felt the need to issue what appears to be a veiled put down.

Why are you posting this stuff?

Continued ...

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is not serious study that we see in this thread. It's propaganda and very selective citations.

 

[Pedrito]

… Continued


Let it be understood that I am personally wary of Jehovah's Witnesses, for a number of reasons.

However, I do not let any implied personal association or labelling of a person or the information they present, discourage me from giving attention to what that person has offered for consideration.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Whenever the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card is played (or “Seventh Day Adventists” for instance), I know from experience that the person playing that card fears the information being presented, and believes they have no credible ability to refute it.

Otherwise, why would they feel the need to play that deflective, emotional card?

I have yet to find the time to seriously address the information that visionary has taken the time to prepare and present to us. But I will do so.

In the mean time, MoreCoffee's response, all by itself, tells me that visionary's information must have some serious merit.

 

[visionary]

… Continued


Let it be understood that I am personally wary of Jehovah's Witnesses, for a number of reasons.

However, I do not let any implied personal association or labelling of a person or the information they present, discourage me from giving attention to what that person has offered for consideration.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Whenever the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card is played (or “Seventh Day Adventists” for instance), I know from experience that the person playing that card fears the information being presented, and believes they have no credible ability to refute it.

Otherwise, why would they feel the need to play that deflective, emotional card?

I have yet to find the time to seriously address the information that visionary has taken the time to prepare and present to us. But I will do so.

In the mean time, MoreCoffee's response, all by itself, tells me that visionary's information must have some serious merit.

Thank you... Serious consideration is all one can ask for. I believe one of the first, biggest, and most deceptive lie told was in the garden of eden, when Satan said, you shall not die. Dead means not alive. Yet thousands believe that when you die, you are not dead but alive in another form. We are dust and will return to dust. The spirit returns to God. It is not us in the breath of life, that belongs to God and returns to Him.

So how does this first lie end up the last lie people will not let go of? What influence does it have on us? For one, demons take advantage of it and pretend to be the dead to come back to haunt us, torment us, deceive us further. So ok, what further can it do in damaging or relationship with God?

False teachers forbid as evil what God has allowed, and command as a duty what he has left indifferent. We find exercise for watchfulness and self-denial, in attending to the requirements of God's law, without being tasked to imaginary duties, which reject what he has allowed. But nothing justifies an intemperate or improper use of things; and nothing will be good to us, unless we seek by prayer for the Lord's blessing upon it.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith [1] to follow deceitful spirits and [2]the teachings of demons, 2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.…

So what are the teachings of demons?? That is another subject in itself and needs it own thread.

 

[Alithis]

This spiritual torment... where do you find it in scriptures?

oops , missed this .
good question.

have never gone indepth study into it , however it would be a reference to the worm that doesn't die and the fire that is not quenched .

the consideration is this - we must be very careful what we portray . the scriptures paint a terrible picture of spiritual existence separated from God who is all that is good ,comfort , whole harmonious and peace joy and life .
to be separated from him is only horror .
but it never ,that i know of, paints a picture of non existence .

neither should we .

you see non existence as a final state is hardly to be feared .it is not ever to be known how can you know when you do not exist . how can you exist at all if your are also going to not exist ,. can that which exists cease to exist .
can GOD cease to exist . God breathed into Adam the breath of life . can the breath of life cease to exist since it came forth from God who is eternal..

there are too many unanswerable questions to the presentation of the theory of non existence.
the devil and his angels are spirit beings .. hell fire was initially prepared for these spiritual beings, spirit beings have no outer body that can die into non existence .and the spirits of unrepentant disembodied man will join therm there in that spiritual place in spiritual torment .
The scriptures simply don't say at any point that they will cease to exist .

if eternal life is "to know god "
then eternal death is to be estranged from him- neither presents nonexistence as an option.

how can a person enter into an everlasting joy or an everlasting peace if there is no everlasting torment ?

 

[Alithis]

... Continued


In this instance we have visionary (in Posts ranging from #1 to #15) presenting interesting ideas based on what appears to be a reasonably in-depth analysis of scripture and a sound understanding of the background culture, thought processes and word meanings of the day.

Does not a proper understanding of both what Jesus meant by His words, and what His hearers knew He meant by His words, have importance? Could that proper understanding provide noteworthy, even essential, insights for believers in our day – believers whose understanding has depended at least in part, upon time-distant, gentile interpretations?

But what was the predictable response?

Someone threw in the “Jehovah's Witnesses” card.



(Shudder, shudder. Quick! Close your mind! Jehovah's Witnesses are scary.)

As if that wasn't enough to discourage people from sensibly investigating visionary's offerings, the Poster also felt the need to issue what appears to be a veiled put down.




Continued ...

to be fair ... the thoughts being presented are from Judaism .. not from the new covenant in Christ. and they hold a lot of similarities to the Jehovah witness cult on that topic .
and Judaism is fraught with error through not having the understanding afforded by the holy spirit .
in a lot of circles mans reasoning's are superimposed upon the mind that does not desire to comprehend the possibility of such a place as eternal hell .
but there are those (and they are far far far too many to ignore) .. that have seen it and bare testimony to it . that it is not to be brushed aside as not a place but rather it is to be warned against at all times .

 

[visionary]

oops , missed this .
good question.

have never gone indepth study into it , however it would be a reference to the worm that doesn't die and the fire that is not quenched .

the consideration is this - we must be very careful what we portray . the scriptures paint a terrible picture of spiritual existence separated from God who is all that is good ,comfort , whole harmonious and peace joy and life .
to be separated from him is only horror .
but it never ,that i know of, paints a picture of non existence .

neither should we .

you see non existence as a final state is hardly to be feared .it is not ever to be known how can you know when you do not exist . how can you exist at all if your are also going to not exist ,. can that which exists cease to exist .
can GOD cease to exist . God breathed into Adam the breath of life . can the breath of life cease to exist since it came forth from God who is eternal..

there are too many unanswerable questions to the presentation of the theory of non existence.
the devil and his angels are spirit beings .. hell fire was initially prepared for these spiritual beings, spirit beings have no outer body that can die into non existence .and the spirits of unrepentant disembodied man will join therm there in that spiritual place in spiritual torment .
The scriptures simply don't say at any point that they will cease to exist .

if eternal life is "to know god "
then eternal death is to be estranged from him- neither presents nonexistence as an option.

how can a person enter into an everlasting joy or an everlasting peace if there is no everlasting torment ?

It shows more mercy than a fire that never consumes and torments forever. Sodom and Gommorah were symbols of this eternal fire, and what I see is the result. If that is my example, I say it is a clear picture of a merciful God who makes an end of sin and sinner.

 

[Alithis]

It shows more mercy than a fire that never consumes and torments forever. Sodom and Gommorah were symbols of this eternal fire, and what I see is the result. If that is my example, I say it is a clear picture of a merciful God who makes an end of sin and sinner.

But we know those of sodom and gomorah now await eternal judgment as do all who are disobedient. There can be no greater mercy than that which has already been displayed in Christ Jesus. Such a mercy that no man need perish in that eternal fire.Thus how much more shall it be, if such mercy is rejected .

Sent from my LG-V500 using Tapatalk

 

[Pedrito]

In Post # 68 on Page 7, Alithis stated of visionary's offerings:

...the thoughts being presented are from Judaism .. not from the new covenant in Christ....

...Judaism is fraught with error through not having the understanding afforded by the holy spirit...

I assume that Alithis' statements are not merely superficial cop-outs.

Many churches employ statements similar to those above, because their leaders fear some of the direct, inspired truths that God revealed to His chosen physical nation.

Those churches utilise such statements to condition their adherents to not study God's revelation to Israel, and thus not become aware of dangerous, God-given truths that conflict with their particular church doctrines.

The leaders also realise that their adherents would also probably become aware of the Jewish culture of Jesus' day, and become aware of what Jesus actually meant, and what His hearers knew Him to mean, when he referred to the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) for instance, with its fire that was not quenched and the constant presence of the worm.

I therefore request Alithis to itemise for us, point by point, his understanding of the specific errors that Judaism is (was) fraught with, as well as the thoughts presented by visionary that conflict with “the new covenant in Christ”.

That information would be most valuable for the rest of us.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Once Alithis has presented his thoughts, we can then explore the inspired Jewish scriptures (“Old Testament”) together, to identify any specific revelations issued by God regarding Himself, regarding the wages of sin, and regarding the mechanism by which He would return dead people to life. We can then compare those revelations with the corresponding ones in the inspired Greek scriptures ("New Testament"), to identify potential points of conflict.

Wouldn't that be an interesting and profitable exercise?

Especially since Paul described the Jewish scriptures in this way (2 Timothy 3:15-17):

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Over to Alithis.

 

[visionary]

Job 27: 8 For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

Good question... when you life is taken away... what hope does any one have? You are dead... and unless you get resurrected in the first resurrection.. which mean rise when He calls you the first time... because the second resurrection is not good.

 

[Alithis]

In Post # 68 on Page 7, Alithis stated of visionary's offerings:


I assume that Alithis' statements are not merely superficial cop-outs.

Many churches employ statements similar to those above, because their leaders fear some of the direct, inspired truths that God revealed to His chosen physical nation.

Those churches utilise such statements to condition their adherents to not study God's revelation to Israel, and thus not become aware of dangerous, God-given truths that conflict with their particular church doctrines.

The leaders also realise that their adherents would also probably become aware of the Jewish culture of Jesus' day, and become aware of what Jesus actually meant, and what His hearers knew Him to mean, when he referred to the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) for instance, with its fire that was not quenched and the constant presence of the worm.

I therefore request Alithis to itemise for us, point by point, his understanding of the specific errors that Judaism is (was) fraught with, as well as the thoughts presented by visionary that conflict with “the new covenant in Christ”.

That information would be most valuable for the rest of us.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Once Alithis has presented his thoughts, we can then explore the inspired Jewish scriptures (“Old Testament”) together, to identify any specific revelations issued by God regarding Himself, regarding the wages of sin, and regarding the mechanism by which He would return dead people to life. We can then compare those revelations with the corresponding ones in the inspired Greek scriptures ("New Testament"), to identify potential points of conflict.

Wouldn't that be an interesting and profitable exercise?

Especially since Paul described the Jewish scriptures in this way (2 Timothy 3:15-17):


--------------------------------------------------------------

Over to Alithis.

simple enough- the error taught that hell is not an eternal place .., the error taught that the worm will de and the flame be quenched ... because the first error implies the second .

 

[Alithis]

Job 27: 8 For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

Good question... when you life is taken away... what hope does any one have? You are dead... and unless you get resurrected in the first resurrection.. which mean rise when He calls you the first time... because the second resurrection is not good.

and this is eternal life ..that may know thee the one true god .

if eternal life is ..to know. (speaks of eternal unity and oneness--togetherness and intamcy )

then eternal death is ..to Not know god to be eternally estranged and cut off .

there is no suggestion of non existence. but one thing i do know ..im not going there .so im not too concerned but to warn all others To escape

 

[Pedrito]

I refer Readers back to Post # 68 on Page 7, where Alithis stated of visionary's offerings:

...the thoughts being presented are from Judaism .. not from the new covenant in Christ....

...Judaism is fraught with error through not having the understanding afforded by the holy spirit...

I refer Readers also to my Post #71 on Page 8 where I made the request:

I therefore request Alithis to itemise for us, point by point, his understanding of the specific errors that Judaism is (was) fraught with, as well as the thoughts presented by visionary that conflict with “the new covenant in Christ”.

That information would be most valuable for the rest of us.

I also pointed out:

Especially since Paul described the Jewish scriptures in this way (2 Timothy 3:15-17):

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Unfortunately, Alithis so far has been unable or unwilling to furnish a point-by-point substantiation of his broad brush statements. Statements of that nature are all too commonly issued by “established” churches in an attempt to blunt the sharpness of Scriptural information that is deemed dangerous and difficult to refute.

His only offering in that regard has been:

simple enough- the error taught that hell is not an eternal place .., the error taught that the worm will de and the flame be quenched ... because the first error implies the second .

That hardly fits the bill with regard to “fraught with error”, which actually means totally filled with multiple errors.

If Alithis is unable to supply the detail requested, then I will be forced to admit that my initial supposition has been proven wrong.

I assume that Alithis' statements are not merely superficial cop-outs.

Still, other Readers should not feel backward in coming forward to help Alithis out.

Who would like to present the point-by-point itemisation of errors (Jewish and visionary's) that I requested?

(Note that by referring to 2 Timothy 3:15-17, the quoting of relevant Scripture was clearly indicated in my request, even if not specifically stated.)


Food for thought:

If it is beyond everyone's ability to present that point-by-point itemisation, then does that not simply prove that visionary's thoughts are correct?

And does that not in turn also prove that other Readers are simply not man enough (or woman enough) to admit it?

 

[Alithis]

I refer Readers back to Post # 68 on Page 7, where Alithis stated of visionary's offerings:


I refer Readers also to my Post #71 on Page 8 where I made the request:

I also pointed out:

Unfortunately, Alithis so far has been unable or unwilling to furnish a point-by-point substantiation of his broad brush statements. Statements of that nature are all too commonly issued by “established” churches in an attempt to blunt the sharpness of Scriptural information that is deemed dangerous and difficult to refute.

His only offering in that regard has been:

That hardly fits the bill with regard to “fraught with error”, which actually means totally filled with multiple errors.

If Alithis is unable to supply the detail requested, then I will be forced to admit that my initial supposition has been proven wrong.



Still, other Readers should not feel backward in coming forward to help Alithis out.

Who would like to present the point-by-point itemisation of errors (Jewish and visionary's) that I requested?

(Note that by referring to 2 Timothy 3:15-17, the quoting of relevant Scripture was clearly indicated in my request, even if not specifically stated.)


Food for thought:

If it is beyond everyone's ability to present that point-by-point itemisation, then does that not simply prove that visionary's thoughts are correct?

And does that not in turn also prove that other Readers are simply not man enough (or woman enough) to admit it?

ouh ..sorry .. did you want us to skipdeedoo off into ambiguity ?. you should know me better then that by now.

but in general we know judaism was fraught with error .. they desired ebery one to be circumcised ..as if that would justify anything etc ..

well any way your right in one aspect.. i am not wiling.. it a unrequired rabbit hole .

nither visionary nor myself have categorically stated that we know one or the other stance on the issue to be so .. but early on in the thread i have asked some questions that no one can answer ..(self included of course ) and since we cannot answer them we cannot say one nor the other is right on this topic .

because a person chooses not to run down a rabbit hole does not make them "not man enough ' lol ... perhaps i am man enough to view you addition as an advocate of strife between visionary and myself .. and so dont wish to play your game ..?

i respect visionary enough to disagree openly though fnd myself for the greater part agreeing with almost everything visionary posts in regard to sound doctrine .
but this topic .. is open .
i dont have scripture enough to fully reject what she presents (she ? ) i dont have scripture enough to fully ascertain what i present ... i accept that .
----------------------------
i know hell exists i know hell is real . i know a man i trust (and these days more then one ) who has died and returned and his testimony convinces me as do many other testimonies who have nothing to gain by fabricating such a testimony .
i have heard fabricated testimonies and they cause me such sorrow .. as to fabricate such testimony would be to bare a false witness .

but i do not know (as in comprehend ) the true nature of the place in its eternal context ( and truly do not desire to as it is a place cut off from god who is all things GOOD )
but the question among others remains ..
if eternal life is to know God and be with him in full unity forever .. then eternal death is to be estranged from him - forever . for to say that this estrangement ends in non existence ..would be to say that unity ends in non existence .. for if there is not eternity for one there is not eternity at all .

(see what i did there .?.i ended the post by getting back on the topic rather then pursuing the rabbit hole topic of the errors of judaism )

 

[visionary]

Many are under a really bad impression that the Holy Spirit is a celestial being that possesses conscious thought. The sad fact of the matter is that the English words "Holy Spirit" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew words "Ruach HaKodesh." A more correct translation is "The Sacred Breath," being the breath that proceeds forth from the Heavenly Father's mouth to sustain all life here on the earth: "For the Spirit of Elohim has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33:4, NLT). Such a mistranslation devalues the idea that the Heavenly Father sustains us with life with his own breath.

As for me, I know that I live because of the fact that the Heavenly Father breathes his Sacred Breath into my body. The day that I stop breathing is the day that the Heavenly Father withholds his breath from me. That breath returns to the Father who gives it.

We cannot see it with the naked eye; however, any well educated individual knows that the spirit primarily consists of the atmospheric elements that we breath, chiefly being Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide. This is the reason why the Hebrew term ruach can easily be translated as either breath or wind, because the wind consists of the very same elements as the breath is. Pure Holy Breath of God charges up the mind and body for Holy thinking and activities. Without it, we do not live.

 

[Pedrito]

I wonder if other Readers find Alithis's comments – his comments about my requesting specific information (Scriptural) about the errors that Judaism was supposedly fraught with, and about my requesting like information (Scriptural) about supposed errors in visionary's presented thoughts – as much of a red herring as I do. Post #76 on Page 8:

ouh ..sorry .. did you want us to skipdeedoo off into ambiguity ?. you should know me better then that by now.

Since when did requests for specificity lead off into ambiguity?

And (same post):

because a person chooses not to run down a rabbit hole does not make them "not man enough ' lol ... perhaps i am man enough to view you addition as an advocate of strife between visionary and myself .. and so dont wish to play your game ..?

Did I advocate strife between Alithis and visionary? Or did I simply request that Alithis substantiate his sweeping statement of disagreement with the ideas she presented? Post #71 on Page 8:

I therefore request Alithis to itemise for us, point by point, his understanding of the specific errors that Judaism is (was) fraught with, as well as the thoughts presented by visionary that conflict with “the new covenant in Christ”.

That information would be most valuable for the rest of us.

One could well wonder why Alithis has chosen to issue such statements, which could well be viewed by some Readers as dishonest and diversionary.

What about (same post):

(see what i did there .?.i ended the post by getting back on the topic rather then pursuing the rabbit hole topic of the errors of judaism )

Rabbit hole topic?

Wasn't it Alithis himself who introduced into this thread the idea that “Judaism is fraught with error” in Post #68 on Page 7?


And as for:

early on in the thread i have asked some questions that no one can answer ..(self included of course ) and since we cannot answer them we cannot say one nor the other is right on this topic .

I will look back and try to identify the questions that Alithis is referring to. If I find them, I will endeavour to answer them individually and specifically, from God's Holy Revelation to us.

I think it will be fun and enlightening for us to explore the Bible together. Does anyone really think that God has deliberately kept us in the dark?

If God has actually not kept us in the dark, then we might have to consider the possibility that it is self-contradictory, man-made doctrines that are obscuring God's clear and precise revelation to us.

 

[visionary]

What was the devil's first lie?
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

 

[visionary]

Psalms 6:3-5 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."