Once Saved Always Saved

[George]

One of the most fiercest topics discussed in Modern Christianity.

Are you always saved, or can you lose your salvation?

 

[psalms 91]

Hebrews 6 makes it pretty clear that you can lose it

 

[Lamb]

One of the most fiercest topics discussed in Modern Christianity.

Are you always saved, or can you lose your salvation?

Scriptures state that man can fall from faith.

Scriptures also state that God will never leave nor forsake the believer.

 

[visionary]

Scriptures state that man can fall from faith.

Scriptures also state that God will never leave nor forsake the believer.

The consistency of God is not evidence of the consistency in man. Just because God never leaves doesn't mean that man doesn't forsake God.

 

[psalms 91]

The consistency of God is not evidence of the consistency in man. Just because God never leaves doesn't mean that man doesn't forsake God.

Absolutely

 

[Josiah]

Are you always saved, or can you lose your salvation?

Yes.



Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


ALL the above are FULLY true. Both Law and Gospel.



To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US or to somehow strip them enough so that WE can merge them into one thing that makes sense to US (but is now unbiblical). To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them. The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic.




MY view...



- Josiah



.

 

[Ackbach]

The Reformed Perspective on Perserverance

Being a Scots Calvinist, I'll be the one to offer up a different viewpoint: it is impossible to lose salvation.

First off, we need some definitions. By "salvation", I mean the entire kit and kaboodle: predestination (election), atonement, first birth, effectual calling, second birth (regeneration), conversion (faith and repentance), justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification, in that logical order. Some of these events occur simultaneously, so that is why I said "logical" order.

By "lose salvation" I mean that someone is truly saved up to some point after justification in the above definition of "salvation", but then breaks off and is not glorified after death.

To some extent, I believe that, since the Bible says "Salvation belongs to the Lord" - Jonah 2:9, that the correct question is not, "Can a man lose his salvation?" but "Can God lose someone's salvation?" The salvation is not the man's to lose! It's God's. See also 1 Cor. 6:19-20. You'll notice that I included predestination or election in my definition of salvation. If someone were to be predestined to salvation, but not finally to get it, it's as though God said, "Oops, I guess I lost that one." Sounds rather absurd, doesn't it?

Next, we absolutely have to distinguish between God's viewpoint of a man's salvation, and that man's viewpoint, or others' viewpoints. Much of the biblical passages [unm]Josiah[/unm] quoted above, for example, are readily explained in context as being from one viewpoint or the other, in which case the Reformed view comes out unscathed: more than that, proven. It's rather like James "versus" Paul about justification. Paul says justification is by grace through faith, and not of works. James says justification is by works, and not only through faith. Contradiction? Absolutely not. Paul is not using the word "justification" in the same way James is, a fact which is discernable from context. Paul is talking about justification before God. James is talking about justification before other men. Problem solved.

From our perspective, it can appear that someone holds to the faith, is a genuine believer, etc., but then falls away from the faith. But God knows everything, because He has "foreordained whatsoever comes to pass". There are no surprises for God.

Let's examine one of Jesus' teachings, in Matt. 7:21-23. Notice Jesus' wording at the end: I never knew you. There are only two categories of people: those who get glorified when they die (that is, they go to heaven), and those who are not glorified when they die (that is, they go to hell). The ones who go to hell are going to be told, despite anything they did on earth, that God never knew them. He never knew them! It's not as though God knew them for a while, but then stopped knowing them. The description of what these people did on earth would certainly seem to indicate that they were believers, at least from a merely human perspective.

I agree to some extent with [unm]Josiah[/unm]'s comments on logic, but would argue that there's another way. First off, there are no contradictions in Scripture. God is a God of order, and not of confusion. Second of all, logic is something we get from Scripture (which assumes it). Logic is not somehow "higher than God", or "higher than the Bible" - it comes from the character of God. God is utterly logical. Therefore, it is never safe to go against biblical logic. Not that logic can give us everything we need - it can't. But you can never go against it. Moreover, we are called to use biblical logic. One example: the Bible never says that if there is no resurrection from the dead, then preaching is in vain and our faith is useless. But we are called to infer this from 1 Cor. 15:13-14, which is an enthymeme. A implies B, and B implies C. We are called upon to infer that A implies C, but Paul does not state that conclusion there. A implies C is just as true as the base statements in the passage.

I think we are called to harmonize Scripture, but I don't think that will ever (nor should it!) require us to twist passages from their plain meaning. We are to interpret all passages of Scripture in light of all other passages of Scripture, as per the analogia fidei.

In summary: it is not possible for God to lose a man's salvation. It is possible for a man to appear to be saved, and then to fall away from that sham salvation.

 

[Josiah]

In summary: it is not possible for God to lose a man's salvation. It is possible for a man to appear to be saved, and then to fall away from that sham salvation.

I'm SO very glad to have a new community member AND one who is an articulate Reformed believer (close, close brothers to Lutherans).... that I hate to have our first discussion one of disagreement (ouch) but hopefully it will be a friendly and respectful one.


MY view (and ain't saying any need to agree with it.... or even that it's right).... is different. From MY perspective, confusing Law and Gospel in that way leads to numerous difficulties - as well as the "watering down" of both Law and Gospel. Aside from the obvious theological problems, I think it leads to some horrible pastoral ones - often the exact opposite of the proposed INTENT of this mixing, the worse the very point you make as "summery: - yeah, I think that's EXACTLY where OSAS takes us, and I find that .... deeply disturbing. Allow me to show why in my next post here....




To be continued.....




.

 

[Josiah]

Comments on "He didn't REALLY believe" point of OSAS.....


IMO, this endangers the Gospel especially as it relates to justification. It changes the focus from Christ to self, the whole point NOT being that such is looking to the Cross but rather self is looking in the mirror, the point no longer being the sufficiency of the Cross but the quality of one's faith. IMO, this unavoidably leads to a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity. Thus, it undermines and destroys the very "comfort" that OSAS is meant to supply, it does so by destroying the Gospel and by changing the focus from the quality of Christ's work to the quality of my faith.


An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob says (sincerely). Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who seems to persuade him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people line, people misunderstand themselves and lie about not believing, happens a lot. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway, in spite of not having faith, because for 18 years, he DID believe. Once upon a time. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is misleading to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.



Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGHT he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Happens a lot. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say (and think) they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.



Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writting all those anti-Christian books, not now. Not at the moment of his death, not ever.

Is that comforting? As OSAS is MEANT to be?



MY position is simple: It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as ONE united, inseparable doctrine). Where such is, justification is. Now, if faith is absent - we have no promise. Now - I agree with the OSAS person that God is ALWAYS faithful (and CANNOT be unfaithful)... that God never "lets go of my hand" - and all the rest of the GOSPEL (I accept ALL the Gospel FULLY, COMPLETELY, ABSOLUTELY). But there's a dynamic here that we aren't totally informed about, a "mystery" in justification that the Law reveals. How this all "cranks out" in every senerio, I don't know (and don't claim to know!) But I think the point is to ACCEPT Law and Gospel BOTH - fully, in all their power and truth. And then APPLY them rightly. Jim thinks he can believe and do whatever he wants cuz OSAS. Tom worries about his salvation because his faith wavers and rarely is he sinless and perfect. Jim needs Law.... Tom needs Gospel.


I hope that helps a bit to reveal my pastoral concern with this mixing..... I hope we're friends!



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

OSAS is a lie and always has been

 

[popsthebuilder]

I've read what has been said here and just thought I would add a couple things.
Hebrews 3 (KJV) - እብራውያን
6: But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3 (KJV) - እብራውያን
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 4 (KJV) - እብራውያን
1: Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2: For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Hebrews 4 (KJV) - እብራውያን
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 seams to state that both all is predestined and man has free will or the opportunity to fall away from GOD's grace.

Hebrews 4 (KJV) - እብራውያን
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Seams to me that once saved. One has a time of learning or being wiened. At which time, though GOD is a merciful GOD we, as true followers, are to actually abide in Faith. Doing so would seamingly assure ones place with GOD, as opposed to destruction.

Hebrews 4 (KJV) - እብራውያን
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Obidience definitely has something to do with it. But we are comforted knowing that those destined by GOD to be the sheep of Christ will not be allowed to get lost ultimately.

Humbly, peace

I figured I'd try to keep the post a little short so people could respond if they wanted.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[visionary]

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Here is a couple of followers who have sold their land to give to the faithful followers in their communal efforts. They decided to give a portion and keep a portion. It was the lie about keeping a portion for themselves that got them into trouble. Why were they not "forgiven" ..."saved"?

Up to that moment, those around them, who believe in "once saved always saved" [if there were any such people back then, which I doubt] would have declared these people under the good graces of God and saved. The moment after that happened these same "once saved always saved" people would instantly say they were never saved.

 

[psalms 91]

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Here is a couple of followers who have sold their land to give to the faithful followers in their communal efforts. They decided to give a portion and keep a portion. It was the lie about keeping a portion for themselves that got them into trouble. Why were they not "forgiven" ..."saved"?

Up to that moment, those around them, who believe in "once saved always saved" [if there were any such people back then, which I doubt] would have declared these people under the good graces of God and saved. The moment after that happened these same "once saved always saved" people would instantly say they were never saved.

Yup, just love the doublemindedness dont you? It says a double minded man will recieve nothing of God

 

[Ackbach]

I'm SO very glad to have a new community member AND one who is an articulate Reformed believer (close, close brothers to Lutherans).... that I hate to have our first discussion one of disagreement (ouch) but hopefully it will be a friendly and respectful one.

As I mentioned in the other thread, it's pretty hard to offend me; you're not walking on eggshells with me.

MY view (and ain't saying any need to agree with it.... or even that it's right).... is different. From MY perspective, confusing Law and Gospel in that way

Well, perhaps you can help me here. I wasn't thinking that I was confusing Law and Gospel (in my thinking, as in Luther's in particular, this is quite an important distinction). I believe that God the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the Scriptures (filled with law passages an gospel passages; I am currently convinced that no passage is both) to convict the believer of sin. You need both Law and Gospel to do that. The Law tells someone that they're not perfect and need a Savior. The Gospel tells them Who that Savior is.

Can you enumerate how OSAS confuses Law and Gospel?

leads to numerous difficulties - as well as the "watering down" of both Law and Gospel. Aside from the obvious theological problems, I think it leads to some horrible pastoral ones - often the exact opposite of the proposed INTENT of this mixing, the worse the very point you make as "summery: - yeah, I think that's EXACTLY where OSAS takes us, and I find that .... deeply disturbing. Allow me to show why in my next post here....

To be continued......

Well, here we have the great Sanctification debate. One view is the Grace Boys view (Tullian Tchividjan, Mark Driscoll, etc.), along with the Sonship point of view, that says sanctification is 100% God and 0% man (here I'm talking about effort). I reject this view utterly and completely. There are way too many Scripture passages urging believers to work out their salvation in fear and trembling to allow this view to pass muster.

On the other hand, you have views like the Federal Vision, Arminian, and Roman Catholic views (these are by no means identical - they just have some similarities in their views on sanctification), which have a tendency to push the formula too far in the 100% man, 0% God direction. They might protest at such a characterization, but that's often where their views lead. I reject this one, too, chiefly because of passages that read, "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to do..."

I am of the 100% God, 100% man view on sanctification. God works in us, AND we work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this avoid the issue you bring up? In this understanding of santification, OSAS, far from bringing about either antinomianism on the one hand or legalism on the other, is the grounds for confidence that we can become more sanctified. It gives us the impetus we need!

Comments on "He didn't REALLY believe" point of OSAS.....

IMO, this endangers the Gospel especially as it relates to justification. It changes the focus from Christ to self,...

I'm not sure I follow you here. The whole reason I believe in OSAS is precisely because Christ has saved me, and not myself. If I am in any degree responsible for my justification, I could never have assurance that I "did enough". I would always doubt. But because God has done it for me (deflecting all glory to God in the process), and I do nothing for my justification but bring my sins and deadness to the table, I can have assurance in my salvation. Surely this is a God-ward focus, not man-centered?

...the whole point NOT being that such is looking to the Cross but rather self is looking in the mirror, the point no longer being the sufficiency of the Cross but the quality of one's faith.

As mentioned above, my view of OSAS is entirely opposite to this! My faith itself is a gift from God. I don't "drum up" faith in order to get saved. I'm so dead without God working in me, that He has to give me even the instrument of justification. All four causes of justification: efficient, material, final, and formal, are all from God, and have nothing whatsoever to do with me, except that I am the one being saved. I am utterly passive in my justification.

IMO, this unavoidably leads to a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity. Thus, it undermines and destroys the very "comfort" that OSAS is meant to supply, it does so by destroying the Gospel and by changing the focus from the quality of Christ's work to the quality of my faith.

As demonstrated above, the only logical basis for OSAS in the first place is the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, as written in the Holy Scriptures alone, for the glory of God alone. If it depends on me at all, OSAS falls to the ground instantly.

An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob says (sincerely). Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who seems to persuade him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

This is certainly a possibility.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all.

Isn't that a contradiction? I'm not sure this is possible. How can you believe it and reject it at the same time? It sounds like an instance of the Law of Noncontradiction: A cannot be A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. Or are you talking about rejecting it outwardly in his words, but believing it in his heart? There are passages which would seem to indicate this to be a bit unlikely. Believers can be weak in their faith, I suppose, and say sinful things that reflect unbelief.

Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people line, people misunderstand themselves and lie about not believing, happens a lot. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway, in spite of not having faith, because for 18 years, he DID believe. Once upon a time. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is misleading to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

Right, this is the possibility ruled out by OSAS. You cannot be a true believer from God's perspective and then cease to be a believer from God's perspective.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.

Well, as finite human beings, not knowing other people's hearts, we can never know if anyone else is saved to a 100% certainty. We can know if we ourselves are saved, but not anyone else. On the other hand, you know a tree by its fruits. This is not to say we can judge absolutely (in fact, we are specifically told NOT to do that), but there are definitely times when it's right to look at a man's fruits and see how the tree is doing.

To be continued...

 

[Alithis]

Yup, just love the doublemindedness dont you? It says a double minded man will recieve nothing of God

Hello psalm91 & visionary

Yes the record of annanias and wife is a dire warning to all of willful sin. Why were they slain ... ? Under grace even . ?!
There is little doubt the holy spirit would have been speaking to thier hearts ...thus there is no doubt they knew what they were about to do was absolute sin.
And they chose by force of self will to do it any way. And were struck down dead.
So where was grace? Where was automatic forgivness? Where was osas ?
Where it should be. In the pit of lies from whence it comes.
There could be no grace for thier willful sin . because there is no more sacrifice .Nothing left by which grace could be afforded them.
For grace was already applied when peter offered them BOTH means and oppurtunity to repent. To change their mind about thier chosen course of sinful action and therby change the outcome.
But they would not.. And they perished outside of the grace of God having refused his grace by unrepentance . Jesus said "repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached" there are many now falling away .believing a lie. Making every self justification for thier continuence of thier favorite secret sin ... And given oppurtunity to repent and cease thier course of action by the grace of God,if they "will not" shall perish in thier sin .for they mock Gods grace .

 

[psalms 91]

Excellent post, right on

 

[Ackbach]

Continued...

Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not;

No mere human being except Bob could ever know that.

if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGHT he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believed as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Happens a lot. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say (and think) they believe.

I suppose this is a possibility. It's extremely rare for a true believer ever to deny his Lord and Savior. Peter did it, though. And Jesus restored him.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.

Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.

Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writting all those anti-Christian books, not now. Not at the moment of his death, not ever.

Because we as finite human beings do not know even our own heart completely, much less anyone else's, it's impossible to know if someone else is truly saved (elect). Only God knows that. I believe we can have assurance, which is a delicate doctrine and in need of special care in its treatment.

These scenarios are somewhat of a moot point, then, because the only way to answer them is from God's perspective, which we don't know in anyone's case. Bob could be in heaven or in hell, I think. If Bob ever truly believed, which is known from God's perspective and never from any bystander's, then he will be in heaven.

Is that comforting? As OSAS is MEANT to be?

OSAS is comforting only to the believer who is growing in holiness. I can know that I am saved, and I can know that God will not lose my salvation.

Your scenarios are, to my mind, a bit of an edge situation. It's not common for people to yo-yo quite like Bob.

MY position is simple: It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as ONE united, inseparable doctrine). Where such is, justification is. Now, if faith is absent - we have no promise. Now - I agree with the OSAS person that God is ALWAYS faithful (and CANNOT be unfaithful)... that God never "lets go of my hand" - and all the rest of the GOSPEL (I accept ALL the Gospel FULLY, COMPLETELY, ABSOLUTELY). But there's a dynamic here that we aren't totally informed about, a "mystery" in justification that the Law reveals. How this all "cranks out" in every senerio, I don't know (and don't claim to know!) But I think the point is to ACCEPT Law and Gospel BOTH - fully, in all their power and truth. And then APPLY them rightly. Jim thinks he can believe and do whatever he wants cuz OSAS.

Which is a distortion of OSAS, as Romans 2:4 points out.

Tom worries about his salvation because his faith wavers and rarely is he sinless and perfect. Jim needs Law.... Tom needs Gospel.

I completely agree, but I think Jim needs both, because he's going to need to know that is licentiousness can be forgiven. He needs law to know that it was sin and NEEDS forgiving, and then the gospel to know that it IS forgiven if he repents.

I hope that helps a bit to reveal my pastoral concern with this mixing.....

Yes, I could certainly see how a distortion of OSAS, as with the distortion of any doctrine, could easily lead to practical problems. Doctrine is practical, and practice is doctrinal. I strongly disagree with anyone who would drive a wedge between the two.

I hope we're friends!

Why wouldn't we? Disagreeing with someone is no reason to be out of fellowship. This is why it's so important to "fight above the belt" like gentlemen. You argue the points, and you don't attack the other person. Because attacking an idea is most definitely NOT the same thing as attacking a person who holds to that idea.

OSAS is a lie and always has been

"Lie" is an EXTREMELY strong word. You realize what the definition of "lie" is? It's an untruth put forth on purpose in order to deceive. Now, if you think people who hold to OSAS are trying to deceive, then I suppose the word fits. But if you only think OSAS people are mistaken in holding to OSAS, then hadn't you better write, instead, "OSAS is false and always has been"? So that you don't impute motives?

 

[Ackbach]

Hello psalm91 & visionary

Yes the record of annanias and wife is a dire warning to all of willful sin. Why were they slain ... ? Under grace even . ?!
There is little doubt the holy spirit would have been speaking to thier hearts ...thus there is no doubt they knew what they were about to do was absolute sin.
And they chose by force of self will to do it any way. And were struck down dead.
So where was grace? Where was automatic forgivness? Where was osas ?

OSAS is most definitely not threatened by the story of Ananias and Sapphira. God deals with His people in two ways: as Judge, and as Father. It's completely possible that A & S were both believers, but their sin needed to be made an example of, so God killed them with physical death. Physical death is (or this whole Christianity thing is a total farce) related to, but most definitely not equivalent to, spiritual death. So God killing them might well be an aspect of God acting as Father, and not as Judge.

Where it should be. In the pit of lies from whence it comes.

See my comment above on [unm]psalms 91[/unm]'s comment.

There could be no grace for their willful sin.

Then I'm in trouble!

because there is no more sacrifice.

Jesus Christ died for all the sins of all His people for all time. If A&S were in Christ, then all their sins were forgiven (in advance, because they lived after Christ). Jesus Christ's sacrifice is so powerful that it's outside of time, and its efficacy in being applied to the believer is not tied to time.

Nothing left by which grace could be afforded them.
For grace was already applied when peter offered them BOTH means and opportunity to repent. To change their mind about their chosen course of sinful action and thereby change the outcome. But they would not.. And they perished outside of the grace of God...

The fact is, that no one except God knows that. You're making an assumption, quite possibly a very large, unjustifiable one. What in the text indicates that they perished outside the grace of God?

...having refused his grace by unrepentance . Jesus said "repentance for the forgiveness of sin is to be preached" there are many now falling away .believing a lie. Making every self justification for their continuance of their favorite secret sin ... And given opportunity to repent and cease their course of action by the grace of God,if they "will not" shall perish in their sin. For they mock God's grace .

Your understanding of justification does not appear to be very closely aligned with mine. When God changes a person's heart, so that he wants God (before this happens he doesn't), he repents of his sin generally, and is justified before God. That's a one-time event, a one-shot deal. From then on, God as Judge sees only the holy finished work of Christ on the cross. He doesn't see that man's sin any more. Now God still deals with him as a Father, and desires that man to live a holy life, in accordance with his justification. But to say that a believer, because of a sin he committed that he didn't have a chance to repent of, is therefore going to hell, is to minimize what Christ did on the cross.

We are not to take the doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone as license to sin. Romans 2:4 and many other passages blow that idea out of the water. No, we are to strive diligently after holiness.

 

[psalms 91]

Those who adhere to OSAS are decieved, the original premise was and is a lie

 

[Josiah]

IMO, OSAS is a case of extreme "over-thinking" and ends up undermining both Law and Gospel. The Law is TRUE.... the Gospel is TRUE..... OSAS thus is not.