Once Saved Always Saved

[Cassia]

Read Hebrews 6 completely, if they fall away once they have tqasted the good gift there is no coming back because they trample underfoot the blood of Jesus and crucify Him again. No, if they fall away in the manner descrivbed there is no coming back

you do know chapters and verses were added ?.. we dont cherry pick verses and force fit them together into a new text and create a new message . read the letter to the hebrews as a whole . ie - in context . it doesnt say what your trying to "make ' it say

I've carefully gone thru the whole thread and neither one of you have offered any specific scripture to refute all the scripture given. Opinions don't count because it just opinions. You both have yet to prove any point other than that you know how to badmouth good arguments. Yours is just philosophy w/o scripture for readers to see.

According to Christ is according to scripture and philosophy is opinions w/o any scripture to back it up.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ

 

[Alithis]

Alithis: could you please clarify something for me? I want to know if you think a man's repentance is something he can do completely on his own strength, or whether he is completely dependent on God's strength to be able to do it?

What does scripture say?
Firstly the word repent means to change ones mind towards God. To change your mind as to. How you think what you think why you think and then do what you do.
Those that hear the good news then must to be saved ,change thier mind ,agree with it and then do the instructions the good news declares.
If you say repentance is automatic then your saying all and any one is saved the moment they hear the gospel and believe it regardless of whether they obey it or disobey it . is that what you seek to promote? Since zero physical effort occures in thechanging of ones mind..thete is no work nor works involved . you exerted no outer effort to repent..and if you have obeyed the gospel and repented,changed your mind.then you will not do what you did before. if you carry on doing the sin you did before..it is because you made up your mind to do so and chose to do that sinful action. That is evidence that you have not changed your mind towards God..you are unrepentant. That is disoabedience and rebellion. The disoedient and rebellious do not enter the kingdom of heaven .

 

[Alithis]

I've carefully gone thru the whole thread and neither one of you have offered any specific scripture to refute all the scripture given. Opinions don't count because it just opinions. You both have yet to prove any point other than that you know how to badmouth good arguments. Yours is just philosophy w/o scripture for readers to see.

According to Christ is according to scripture and philosophy is opinions w/o any scripture to back it up.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ

That is because this topic has been thrashed so many times and we have presented the so very many times.
George starts these stiring up threads to get the website hits going.
Itdoes not go past our notice that he never remains to discuss the issue.

So lets short cut. Iv been a deciple of Jesus many years. But then
i go out today cheat on my wife and murder some one the lie and steal dailey to cover it all up. Suddenly the lord jesus comes back in all glory while im in bed committing adultary... Will i be caught up into the air to be withhim in glory?
This is my last post in this thread. Because to say osas applies and i would be saved is nothing less then a lie against the gospel of Jesus which commands..repent...

Jesus said repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached.
The word says those who continue in the practice of sin are not of God . jesus said he will say to those believers depart from me you who work (do sin) iniquity.

 

[Cassia]

I said Jacob but was actually referring to Joshua. I guess Moses was left forsaken in the wilderness wasn't he, but he was not unsaved.

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.

Works are burnt yet they are saved but as thru fire.

That is because this topic has been thrashed so many times and we have presented the so very many times.
George starts these stiring up threads to get the website hits going.
Itdoes not go past our notice that he never remains to discuss the issue.

So lets short cut. Iv been a deciple of Jesus many years. But then
i go out today cheat on my wife and murder some one the lie and steal dailey to cover it all up. Suddenly the lord jesus comes back in all glory while im in bed committing adultary... Will i be caught up into the air to be withhim in glory?
This is my last post in this thread. Because to say osas applies and i would be saved is nothing less then a lie against the gospel of Jesus which commands..repent...

Jesus said repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached.
The word says those who continue in the practice of sin are not of God . jesus said he will say to those believers depart from me you who work (do sin) iniquity.

Here's the difference between "those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit" in Hebrews 6 and then Hebrews 10's "who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Can you tell which one you are talking about? Do you see the difference? I also can't stand these types of threads because of reactions such as we have seen. This is also my last post on the thread.

 

[Lamb]

That is because this topic has been thrashed so many times and we have presented the so very many times.
George starts these stiring up threads to get the website hits going.
Itdoes not go past our notice that he never remains to discuss the issue.

So lets short cut. Iv been a deciple of Jesus many years. But then
i go out today cheat on my wife and murder some one the lie and steal dailey to cover it all up. Suddenly the lord jesus comes back in all glory while im in bed committing adultary... Will i be caught up into the air to be withhim in glory?
This is my last post in this thread. Because to say osas applies and i would be saved is nothing less then a lie against the gospel of Jesus which commands..repent...

Jesus said repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached.
The word says those who continue in the practice of sin are not of God . jesus said he will say to those believers depart from me you who work (do sin) iniquity.

In defense of George, yes he likes good discussion, but he is young and also wants to learn. There is nothing wrong in sitting back and reading the responses to learn. Please don't put him down for it.

 

[Lamb]

What does scripture say?
Firstly the word repent means to change ones mind towards God. To change your mind as to. How you think what you think why you think and then do what you do.
Those that hear the good news then must to be saved ,change thier mind ,agree with it and then do the instructions the good news declares.
If you say repentance is automatic then your saying all and any one is saved the moment they hear the gospel and believe it regardless of whether they obey it or disobey it . is that what you seek to promote? Since zero physical effort occures in thechanging of ones mind..thete is no work nor works involved . you exerted no outer effort to repent..and if you have obeyed the gospel and repented,changed your mind.then you will not do what you did before. if you carry on doing the sin you did before..it is because you made up your mind to do so and chose to do that sinful action. That is evidence that you have not changed your mind towards God..you are unrepentant. That is disoabedience and rebellion. The disoedient and rebellious do not enter the kingdom of heaven .

Ackbach asked concerning man's repentance "whether he is completely dependent on God's strength to be able to do it?"

Your response did not include God anywhere to show that you believe God is working in repentance.

 

[Ackbach]

Repentance itself is a gift from God - a grace. You can see Heb. 12:17, where Esau sought to repent, but was unable. Since, from Rom. 9, we know that God did not save Esau, we see that the natural man, unregenerated by the Holy Spirit, is not able to repent on his own. Repentance is necessary for salvation, I agree, as is faith, as is grace, as is regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and a host of things that we can't do on our own strength at all. The biblical doctrine of repentance is that we are dead men, unable to repent unless the Holy Spirit first changes our hearts. We have cobra hearts, but God the Holy Spirit can give us new hearts, so that we desire God. That is the kind of heart - purely a gift from God - that can repent and be saved. Repentance is not a "work" (by "work" here I mean something that man can do completely on his own, without God's help; this term is typically used to describe good works that can earn merit with God, or earn salvation, which is utterly and completely impossible) to earn salvation.

This gets at the heart of the gospel: I can't justify myself at all. I can bring positively nothing to the table to get my justification. God must do all. He must elect me from before the beginning of time, He must call me, He must regenerate me, He must give me faith and grace to repent, He must declare me not guilty of my sins, He must impute my sins to Jesus Christ, He must impute Christ's righteousness to me, and He must adopt me as His son. I can do precisely none of that. That's at the heart of the gospel, and that's what Paul spends the entire letter to the Galatians laboring to prove. You cannot save yourself through any works or merit on your own, including repentance. You're a dead man. Dead men don't repent. Dead men need to be made alive first before they can do anything.

Now, once all that has happened, I hasten to add that sanctification, which is the process of becoming more and more holy, more and more like Jesus Christ, is 100% God and 100% man. I work in my sanctification mightily. But I don't work in my justification, and it precisely because I don't work in my justification that I can work in my sanctification! Sanctification is not about earning my way to heaven. Jesus Christ has already bought me, and ensured that I will go to heaven. No, sanctification is what I do out of gratitude for what Christ has already done for me. And it is our way of glorifying God, which is the main reason we exist in the first place.

 

[popsthebuilder]

How can so many claim with certainty that osas is always wrong?

Will not the Christ shepherd all his flock? Not loosing one?

Does it say that all are tempted and turned aside, or that those who are elect ultimately cannot be veered from their ordained path?

Just curious.

It seems to go along with other sayings too, such as those of sin know not GOD, and those of GOD know not sin.

2¢

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

yes . you and all who knowingly sin a sin you know to be sin are in trouble if you do not repent of doing so .. glad you agree .
without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin .
one who says they have repented ,changed their minds and decided to go the other way .. who then reneges and goes back is a man walking one way 3 steps then turning and walking back 3 forward 3 back 3 recurring . he is not following the lord jesus he is standing still in his double mindedness . unwilling to forsake his sin .a double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways .. not just some .
you see there is no other grounds for osas doctrine,no other motive for the false doctrine to exist but to self justify unrepentance and appease the conscience. a teaching that is pleasing to the hearer but encourages disobedience to god .
i know what is sin for me ... (as do all) i know that the lord Jesus has made me a new creation in christ Jesus and set me free from sin. therefore i know that nothing can force me to do that which i plainly KNOW is sinful . not flesh not the devil and certainly not the holy Spirit whom we are to walk in and obey . Since the Lord Jesus has set me free by his own blood -and he has not failed upon the cross ,i am free indeed . therefore cannot accidently go back and do a sin a know to be sin. nor do i desire to .. the spirit desires the things of the spirit the flesh the things of the flesh .

when we have been baptised in christ , buried with him into his death, the flesh dies and we are raised up by faith a new creature in christ with a new nature .. we are now able to live by that new nature .when our old nature ties to rise we ignore it ..its very simple.
we will always do that which we truly desire to do.. a person who sins when they know it is sin does so because they love it the most .they do not love God the most .

the lord jesus said to those who practice iniquity ... (ie do works of sin) " depart from me you workers of iniquity

So how does that refute osas?

I see how the doctrine of osas could be bad for the haughty selfish person, but for some it is a proclamation of the unwavering will of GOD.

I could see how it could bother some who sin knowingly and repeatedly. As according to osas they have yet to have been saved.

2¢

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Lamb]

Once Saved Always Saved makes the premise that the Christian cannot turn away and reject God.

When looking at it historically through scripture we see time and time again how God's people turn away from Him. We also see Him turning them back. But we also see again turning and Him not stating He turns them back to Him which means perhaps there is some point that even though HE is faithful, man is not. God fulfills his promises but man can still reject and damn himself. Law & Gospel and both are true.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And to whom is he speaking when he says "he will never leave you nor forsake you"? Its from deuteronomy.and it is to those who have believed and are being obedient and entering into the promises by going and doing what god has told them to do. Take the land .
And to whom does the lord jesus say - "and i will be with you until the end of the age" ?
To those he has just commanded to GO..heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons baptise people in his name and make more disciples. Again...it is those who are doing what he has told them to do..that he says "and i will be with you."
Not to those who show they dont love him ,displaying it by their disobedience .
And he comes with reward in hand for whom?for those who obeyed.

You will never ever exclude repentance or obedience.and none will be saved without obeying the command to repent.

Are they saying to have an unrepentant heart?


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That is because this topic has been thrashed so many times and we have presented the so very many times.
George starts these stiring up threads to get the website hits going.
Itdoes not go past our notice that he never remains to discuss the issue.

So lets short cut. Iv been a deciple of Jesus many years. But then
i go out today cheat on my wife and murder some one the lie and steal dailey to cover it all up. Suddenly the lord jesus comes back in all glory while im in bed committing adultary... Will i be caught up into the air to be withhim in glory?
This is my last post in this thread. Because to say osas applies and i would be saved is nothing less then a lie against the gospel of Jesus which commands..repent...

Jesus said repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached.
The word says those who continue in the practice of sin are not of God . jesus said he will say to those believers depart from me you who work (do sin) iniquity.

Osas would apply in this case. As you would have never been saved if in knowing continued sin. You know this.

Your statement in no way refutes osas or the doctrine of repentance.

Peace brother

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Cassia]

The importance is in growth and not in works at all.

But first one must be born of incorruptable seed or else there is no life to grow because of being dead in sin. 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Corinthians 15:53, 1 Peter 1:4 Human life alone isn't qualified to be One in God, that organic union depends upon the divine life mingled with our human life in faith and in baptism into His death which is the beginning, the elemental that needs to grow with the divine life. Not that the divine life in itself needs growth but that we need to grow into it by the gradual (from glory to glory) reckoning of death to all that is revealed of the old self. Col 2:22-23 He must increase and we must decrease. As His body we can do this because after all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church Ephesians 5:29

However even this growth needs regulation. Our growth is to grow with God Himself increasing in us. What revelation reveals about the natural flesh and soul needs recognizing as being restricted by bringing the natural under the control of the divine. The Christ in us is King. We're in a priestly kingdom, a citizen of the kingdom. It doesn't take any training to be a hippie or a loose person but royal families train for it their whole lives. So, for that, obedience is needed. There's a great experience that follows obedience that's an increase in light and love that is meant to increase further obedience that still furthers growth and developement in grace. The results are in perpetual progress. Bringing the natural under the control of the divine. Yeilding to God light falls on the pathway and creates love. Love suggests obedience. The will, impulsed by love yeilds to the light and on it goes. It's not a work at all but only growth. Unbelief and disobedience impedes growth.

We have so many different character traits that all need regulating in every aspect of life. To be useful to God we have to allow the light to shine upon us to bring us to the Lord's judgement and according to His standards that reveal our true selves and helps us to become true to our new selves.

Without growth, even if you have the divine life, there is no maturity. The life plus the growth gives one maturity. Maturity comes out of growth, which is what the book of Hebrews is all about.

Matthew 25:4 shows the wise virgins as having oil both in in their lamps and in their vessels. The lamp signifies our spirit Proverbs 20:27 and the vessel signifies our soul, our being Romans 9:21,23 Both in our spirit and in our entire being we should be full of the (indwelling) oil, which signifies the Holy Spirit Isa 61:1; Heb 1:9 The more growth the more infilling of the Holy Spirit which is the growth in God.

Matthew 25 also speaks of the slaves talents and their diligence, because functionality depends on diligence. That comes from proper conduct thru co-operation with God. Fellowship and prayer with the Lord co=operates to recieve His enlightenment, and to be dealt with by Him. Slothful people will never contact the Lord regularly, seemingly because they are content in their own dirty diapers that they have deemed (luke)warm to stay in. In order to grow and reach maturity one needs to be diligent.

Growth to maturity demands being filled with the Spirit and to be diligent with yourself to use the ability in maturity to serve the Lord. These two can be seen as the infilling of the Spirit and the outpouring of the Spirit for service.

To live a life in the Spirit is to reach maturity in Christ by the submission of the whole being to allow the HS into every part so as to function as a mature person that Jesus can use.


What that would look like

Maturity, the good ground:
- obedient behavior (flesh under control and submissive to the Holy Spirit)
- sorting gospel from tradition ( mind under the Holy Spirit)
- seeking above all else to please Him and serve others ( human spirit submissive

Personal fellowship, holiness of character:
-intellegence- able to understand things of God
( soul needs to overcome greed)
- emotion- love God and all He loves
(flesh needs to overcome lust)
- will- choosing things in harmony with His will
( human spirit needs to overcome pride)

Righteous conduct, co-operative activity:
-intellegence- moving in harmony with God
(again soul needs to overcome greed)
-emotions- in action
(again flesh needs to overcome lust)
-will- choosing things of God
(again the human spirit needs to overcome pride)

 

[Alithis]

..

 

[Alithis]

[.

 

[George]

In defense of George, yes he likes good discussion, but he is young and also wants to learn. There is nothing wrong in sitting back and reading the responses to learn. Please don't put him down for it.

Thank you Lammchen, rudeness wasn't needed.

 

[Alithis]

Thank you Lammchen, rudeness wasn't needed.

no one was rude
i was straight forward though

you do start threads and then never contribute to them .
and they are almost always controversial
and they are often on the same topic line.

so ..are you posting them to learn ? once ,maybe
twice ... possibly

but often ? we have our doubts .and i voiced them openly .

 

[Lamb]

George told you his thoughts that it's rude. We allow members to begin threads here whether they return or not. It's not a rule that the OP must participate. It's nice if a personal question is asked if a reply would eventually be made but these threads are general discussion.

Back to the topic now as this has been addressed.

 

[Cassia]

Watchman Nee is one of the very few teachers that I listen to. From his book ' The King and the Kingdom of heaven ( the gospel according to Matthew) Nee had this to say about OSAS. At this point in the book (Matthew 5:21-26) Jesus is talking to His disciples.
Matthew 5:21-26
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool,(Moreh) shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

The Presbyterians, the Episcopalians, and the Brethern follow the thought of John Calvin, who promoted the teaching that salvation is predestined and therefore all that are saved will never perish. On the other hand, the Methodists and some of the Pentecostals follow the teaching of Arminius, who stressed the position that mankind has a free will. Seeing from the Bible that many Christians do fall or have fallen, the Arminians today uphold the view that Christians may yet perish.

Though Calvin seems to have gained the upper hand in his exalting of God, it must also be said that Arminius has his ground too. I do not believe that we should overturn a concept which seems to have less scriptural support (the Arminian) with a concept that apparently has more scriptural support ( the Calvinistic) On the contrary, we should put all the Scriptures together and let the scriptures themselves decide all issues.

"They shall never perish" says the Lord John 10:38 Eternity exists before before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and it extends beyond the events of the book of Revelation. In between these two is the temporary period which can also be called time."Between creation and the book of Revelation Christians may recieve punishment during this period. In 2 Corinthians 5:10 it reads"we must all be made manifest`before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each may recieve the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad"
Some will recieve bad recompense. If this is not punishment what is it? ..... Likewise Luke 12:47-48 says "47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded."
The beating is before the judgment-seat. With regard to the words 'suffer loss' in 1 Corinthians 3:15 someone has said that any loss without the inflicting of suffering cannot be reckoned as the suffering of loss. The consequence of "abide not" is to "cast them into the fire" John 15:6
This, without a doubt, speaks of punishment. Revelation 2:11 declares " Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death." In other words, he who does not overcome will be hurt of the second death.
Who shall reign with Christ for a thousand years? .... The answer Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

According to the original rendering of John 12:28 "they shall never perish" should be translated " in no wise shall they perish forever" in other words, if believers should sin and fail to repent, they will suffer temporarily what the unbelievers will suffer eternally.

Purgatory as promoted by the Roman Catholic Church commences, in it's view, at the time of death; indulgence is promised by the Church thru the Mass and other means. To this thought we vigorously object. Nevertheless, we cannot use heresy, either, to oppose the fact that Christians may recieve punishment.​

Tying this in with the text at hand Nee goes on to say

We can only rely on the scriptures to prove that the Matthew passage before us has reference to the judgment-seat of Christ. One sister in the Lord has said it well " Sin in an unbeliever is sin; but so too is sin in a believer sin"

Robert Govertt translates "raca" as "useless" others as "worthless" or "stupid"​

(((( personally I thought it translates as air-head)))

"Moreh" (verse 22 mg) is probably Syrian, and it is more appropriate to translate it as "rebel" Judging by the content, calling another believer "raca" is a deeper reaction than getting angry, and the judgment of scolding a fellow believer by using the term "moreh" is stronger than all, even to the extent of placing oneself "in danger of the hell of fire" Hence the meaning of moreh must be weightier than that of "raca". If raca means stupid, moreh, according to G.H. Pember, should mean rebel.

The very mentioning of the hell of fire here indicates that Christians may not escape judgment. This situation cannot be applied to unbelievers, for they do not go to hell just because they denounce people​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some folk like to feel secure in their belief that they are saved and a lot of them choose to believe doctrines like "eternal security", "perseverance of the saints", and "once saved always saved". Each of the doctrines has a slightly different emphasis. Some will fight mightily to defend their particular slant on the matter. If it makes your heart sing to believe that you are saved and can never ever be separated from Christ and hence never ever lose your salvation then let's pray that you persevere in the faith until the end and thus receive your reward. I'd praise God with great joy if you did. It doesn't really matter what anybody believes about their own salvation. All that matters is what really happens. The truth will out in the end as the adage says. If you are saved then you will without doubt end your earthly course in the grace of God. If you do not end your earthly course in God's grace then what does it matter if you say "I was saved once but lost it all" or if you say "I was self deceived and never truly was saved even though I thought I was". The end result is indistinguishable. And I doubt that God will expound in detail to you why you were one or the other or something altogether different. "Once saved always saved" seems like words to make a person feel more secure in their belief about their own salvation. That's all. I do not think it is worth arguing about since it will not sway God away from his wise and holy judgement when he makes his final judgement about you.