Ever Virgin

[Josiah]

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:25) NIV

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (Matthew 1:25) KJV

γινώσκω ginōskō know
BDAG know, know about, make acquaintance of; learn (of), ascertain, find out; understand, comprehend; perceive, notice, realize; have sex/marital relations with,; have come to know, know
Louw-Nida to have sexual intercourse with
DBL Greek know; learn; be familiar with; understand; acknowledge; have sexual intercourse
LEH LXX Lexicon to come to know, to perceive; to know; to recognize; to form a judgement, to think; to acknowledge as true; to know carnally
LXGRCANLEX know; to know; to have sex; to know; to learn; to know
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint know; perceive; learn; ידע; know; ראה; see; דַּ֫עַת

So based on the original Greek, there are only two options. Either the NIV is correct in its translation or Joseph was a complete stranger until Jesus was born. Since the later is obviously incorrect and contradicts scripture, the only version that sticks it consummate.


I guess Mary not consummating the marriage until after Jesus was born means that Mary never consummated the marriage?

The problem, friend, is that you are looking at an ENGLISH word and forcing a MODERN implication into it. Yes, I agree, in the 21st Century, in ENGLISH, the word "until" can be seen as IMPLYING that a situation changed - it was true to a point but not after that. The thing is, that implication is entirely, wholly missing in the original Koine Greek. The Greek word used in the text by no means carried that connotation.

The issue is, there simply isn't a MODERN ENGLISH word that has exactly the same meaning (and lack of connotations) as the first century Koine Greek word in this text. Translators into modern English words (with MODERN connotations) however are fully aware of this. See the following where the same Greek word is also translated into "until" but obviously without the MODERN ENGLISH connotation being possible:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."
Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ."
1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In each verse, the word "until" does not designate cessation of the condition mentioned. In 1 Cor. 15:25 Jesus still reigns after he puts all enemies under his feet. In Phil. 1:10 we will still be blameless after the day of Christ. In 1 Tim. 6:14 we are to still keep the commandments of God after Jesus returns.

No, it is obvious if you plainly read scripture that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage

I disagree. It's obviously NOT stated. It's not even remotely implied - at least not in the original Koine Greek (although it MIGHT be, perhaps, in modern 21st Century implications of the ENGLISH word used in translations of the 1st Century Greek word).





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[psalms 91]

No, it is obvious if you plainly read scripture that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage. Any other way of reading it is a stretch.

Totally agree

 

[Josiah]

Totally agree

So, Bill, you hold that the Greek word translated as "until" in Matthew 1:25 clearly, obviously MANDATES a cessation of the condition. I see. So, let's see how that works in Scripture:


1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?





- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Why make things complicated? Seems to me thta is the cause of so many arguments over scripture is because people want to turn it around. The simple meaning is thta she had sex and as in any marriage that is also the norm and what was commanded of a woman. If she withheld sex from her husband not only could she be divorced but also would break a commandment to be under her husbands authority

 

[Josiah]

So, Bill, you hold that the Greek word translated as "until" in Matthew 1:25 clearly, obviously MANDATES a cessation of the condition. I see. So, let's see how that works in Scripture:


1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?


.

Why make things complicated?

Why evade your opinion? Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition, and this MUST be the case with the original Greek word too. It's YOUR poiint.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.

So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, and that this is obvious and clear and mandated.

The simple meaning is thta she had sex

Because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the IDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?

f she withheld sex from her husband not only could she be divorced but also would break a commandment to be under her husbands authority

Could you quote the verse that states that if a couple mutually decides to not have sex, they must divorce? That if a husband choose to not have sex, that terminates the marriage and causes a divorce? Come on, Bill! You seem to be assuming very, very, very much that Matthew 1:25 does not state. No Scripture does.



- Josia


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[psalms 91]

Why evade your opinion? Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition. It's YOUR poiint.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.

So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, an that this is obvious and clear and mandated.

See the post you quoted but ignored.






Because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the INDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?







Could you quote the verse that states that if a couple mutually decides to not have sex, they must divorce? That if a husband choose to not have sex, that terminates the marriage and causes a divorce? Come on, Bill! You seem to be assuming very very, very much that Matthew 1:25 does not state. No Scripture does.



- Josia


.

Yeah I am sure that is why Jesus had brothers because they didnt have sexor do you dent that Jesuss brother was the leader of the church in Acts?

 

[Josiah]

Yeah I am sure that is why Jesus had brothers because they didnt have sexor do you dent that Jesuss brother was the leader of the church in Acts?

Why evade your opinion? Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition. It's YOUR poiint.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.

So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, an that this is obvious and clear and mandated because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the IDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?


Could you quote the verse that states that if a couple mutually decides to not have sex, they must divorce? That if a husband choose to not have sex, that terminates the marriage and causes a divorce? Come on, Bill! You seem to be assuming very very, very much that Matthew 1:25 does not state. No Scripture does.




To your switching to another topic rather than support your apologetic....

1. The Greek words for "brother" and "sister" in the NT do not mandate biological siblings. We all know that.

2. The Bible does NOT say that ANY other had Mary as their mother. James COULD have been a child of Joseph by a previous marriage as early tradition said (the Bible would in no way made that impossible) but my point would be: there is NOTHING in Scripture that says MARY had other children or that other people had MARY as their mother. You are completely imposing that.... Scripture says no such thing.


- Josiah

 

[Cassia]

It seems to me that Mary gave the interpretation herself.

Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know G1097 not a man?

Matthew 1:25
And knew G1097 her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The topic of the thread is "ever virgin?" not "mother of one?", so I don't see why any other argument should apply? Another thread would have to be started to debate that as Mary has proven herself that Joseph did not KNOW her (which is a Jewish idiom for intercourse) until after Jesus' birth.

 

[Lamb]

And Saul's daughter Michal bore no children from that day on until the day she died.
2 Samuel 6:23

Does the above mean Michal had a child after death?

We need to be careful about using modern interpretation of wording to read what scriptures has written.

 

[Cassia]

And Saul's daughter Michal bore no children from that day on until the day she died.
2 Samuel 6:23

Does the above mean Michal had a child after death?

We need to be careful about using modern interpretation of wording to read what scriptures has written.

The emphasis is on KNOW not Until.... how could that possibly prove anything? The emphasis has to be on the word KNOW and what it meant at that time. What did Mary mean by "How can that be ( becoming pregnant with child) when she KNOW not a man?

 

[psalms 91]

Why evade your opinion? Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition. It's YOUR poiint.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.

So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, an that this is obvious and clear and mandated because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the IDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?


Could you quote the verse that states that if a couple mutually decides to not have sex, they must divorce? That if a husband choose to not have sex, that terminates the marriage and causes a divorce? Come on, Bill! You seem to be assuming very very, very much that Matthew 1:25 does not state. No Scripture does.




To your switching to another topic rather than support your apologetic....

1. The Greek words for "brother" and "sister" in the NT do not mandate biological siblings. We all know that.

2. The Bible does NOT say that ANY other had Mary as their mother. James COULD have been a child of Joseph by a previous marriage as early tradition said (the Bible would in no way made that impossible) but my point would be: there is NOTHING in Scripture that says MARY had other children or that other people had MARY as their mother. You are completely imposing that.... Scripture says no such thing.


- Josiah

Josiah I have seen your repetitive posts in other threads and I refuse to get into thta with you, it adds nothing to a thread and probably drives people away from the thread

 

[Josiah]

It seems to me that Mary gave the interpretation herself.

Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

"Know" is in the present tense. When she said that, she was a virgin. She did not state, "At the moment of my death, I will be a virgin." On the other hand, the word in the present tense does not mandate that such is temporary.

Until 11 months ago (wink, wink) I could have said, "I know not a woman." And the statement would be absoutely accurate and true. Then I got married.... so.... well..... but THAT reality doesn't make the statement made 11 months ago ergo false.




.

 

[Josiah]

Bill,


Why evade your opinion?

Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition. It's YOUR point.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.



So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, an that this is obvious and clear and mandated because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the IDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?


Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"


1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?


Prove that the word "until" mandates, "clearly and obviously," that a cessation and reversal happens, prove your whole apologetic is correct and thus you "TOTALLY AGREE" with it.



To your switching to another topic rather than support your apologetic....

1. The Greek words for "brother" and "sister" in the NT
do not mandate biological siblings. We all know that.

2. The Bible does NOT say that ANY other had Mary as their mother. James COULD have been a child of Joseph by a previous marriage as early tradition said (the Bible would in no way made that impossible) but my point would be: there is NOTHING in Scripture that says MARY had other children or that other people had MARY as their mother. You are completely imposing that.... Scripture says no such thing.


- Josiah



.

it adds nothing to a thread and probably drives people away from the thread

This thread is about whether Mary remained a virgin. Bill dogmatically insisted she did NOT - and based that dogmatic proclamation on the word "UNTIL" found in the NIV translation of Matthew 1:25, Bill's dogmatic apologetic all resting on his insistence that the word "until" which translators often use to translate the first century Koine Greek word, in the 21st Century, the IMPLICATION of that ENGLISH word suggests some cessation and reversal of the state - ERGO, Mary must have had sex after Jesus was born. Bill posted, "TOTALLY AGREE" with that.

Now Bill runs from his whole point, his apologetic, his post. Why?




.

 

[psalms 91]

This thread is about whether Mary remained a virgin. Bill dogmatically insisted she did NOT - and based that dogmatic proclamation on the word "UNTIL" found in the NIV translation of Matthew 1:25, Bill's dogmatic apologetic all resting on his insistence that the word "until" which translators often use to translate the first century Koine Greek word, in the 21st Century, the IMPLICATION of that ENGLISH word suggests some cessation and reversal of the state - ERGO, Mary must have had sex after Jesus was born. Bill posted, "TOTALLY AGREE" with that.

Now Bill runs from his whole point, his apologetic, his post. Why?




.

Because I grow weary of your lenghty repetitive posts

 

[Josiah]

Bill,


Why totally evade your proclamation, your apologetic, your insistence?


Your position is that the modern 21st Century IMPLICATION of a modern ENGLISH word often found in TRANSLATIONS of Matthew 1:25 mandates - in a clear and obvious and binding way - that the condition of virginity ceased when Jesus was born because the word "until" mandates cessation of the condition and the reversal of the condition. It's YOUR point.... you TOTALLY AGREE with it.



So, support that THAT is what the First Century Koine Greek word means in Scripture, an that this is obvious and clear and mandated because your entire apologetic is that the word mandates a cessation and reversal. Prove that's the case in these verses where the IDENTICAL word is found:

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." So, according to you, it is obvious and clear and MANDATED that when Jesus puts His enemies under His feet, His reign ENDS. Who resigns then? Satan?


Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ." So, after the Day of Christ, we will all sin wildly? THAT is obvious, clear and mandated since "until" mandates a cessation of the condition, the opposite is the case after the "until?"


1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." So, you believe, after Jesus appears, it is obvious, clear and mandated that we all sin wildly after Jesus appears - since you insist the word mandates a cessation of the condition and the opposite becomes the case?


Prove that the word "until" mandates, "clearly and obviously," that a cessation and reversal happens, prove your whole apologetic is correct and thus you "TOTALLY AGREE" with it.



To your switching to another topic rather than support your apologetic....

1. The Greek words for "brother" and "sister" in the NT do not mandate biological siblings. We all know that.

2. The Bible does NOT say that ANY other had Mary as their mother. James COULD have been a child of Joseph by a previous marriage as early tradition said (the Bible would in no way made that impossible) but my point would be: there is NOTHING in Scripture that says MARY had other children or that other people had MARY as their mother. You are completely imposing that.... Scripture says no such thing.


- Josiah



.

Because I grow weary of your lenghty repetitive posts

So, when you are asked to defend your apologetic, you persistently evade that - because it makes you tired? Are you right because you evade everything related to your proclamations, you are right because you refuse to show it is true, you are right because you refuse to acknowledge the Scriptures which contradict it, because you are "tired?"

Bill..... if you erred, if you were wrong: admit it. If you are right, document it and DEAL with the my post to you. And if truth is irrelevant to you, it doesn't matter to you (and thus shouldn't matter to anyone) whether your proclamations you post are true or not (truth being irrelevant), so state.



- Josiah

 

[Cassia]

It seems to me that Mary gave the interpretation herself.

Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know G1097 not a man?

Matthew 1:25
And knew G1097 her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The topic of the thread is "ever virgin?" not "mother of one?", so I don't see why any other argument should apply? Another thread would have to be started to debate that as Mary has proven herself that Joseph did not KNOW her (which is a Jewish idiom for intercourse) until after Jesus' birth.

The emphasis is on KNOW not Until.... how could that possibly prove anything? The emphasis has to be on the word KNOW and what it meant at that time. What did Mary mean by "How can that be ( becoming pregnant with child) when she KNOW not a man?

"Know" is in the present tense. When she said that, she was a virgin. She did not state, "At the moment of my death, I will be a virgin." On the other hand, the word in the present tense does not mandate that such is temporary.

Until 11 months ago (wink, wink) I could have said, "I know not a woman." And the statement would be absoutely accurate and true. Then I got married.... so.... well..... but THAT reality doesn't make the statement made 11 months ago ergo false.
.

Meaning what in context of the thread? I find that posters in this thread and in fact most of the threads on CH are a paradoxical reflection of confusion as to to any persons stand on any given subject

 

[visionary]

... then we are in agreement.





If we ASSUME Mary did have sex after Jesus was born..... if we ASSUME she did not..... we can easily accept all that Scripture says about that (which we both agree is... nothing, lol) - Scripture will not contradict our ASSUMPTION (or even make it problematic). Happens a lot, actually.






Actually, I'd have to review my notes. Maybe George or MoreCoffee has this on the tip of their fingers. IF I'm recalling correctly (and I may well NOT be), what the Council did (and I forget which - but one of the 7 most accept), was simply refer to her as ALWAYS VIRGIN (or something to that extend). Just giving her that TITLE. But I woudn't wiggle too much on that point, I DO accept that it was universally accepted (and for a long time!) as an affirmation of that (it's exact status from there is another issue). There are Lutherans (including my pastor) who accepts the PVM because it comes from a Council, has such strong ecumenical and historic affirmation, and (in his view) is equally possible in terms of Scripture (I, however, take a neutral stand) BUT he does NOT hold it to be dogmatic.




Actually, Scripture has never been officially canonized by an Ecumenical Council...... It's all a matter of Tradition, consensus, custom. ALL agree on the 27 NT books (now). There are 39 OT books with universal consensus - and several in various levels of dispute. All issues WAY beyond the issue of this thread. But yeah, it's interesting (historically) that an issue pretty big (what IS Scripture?) has never actually been officially addressed. Some individual denominations (the RCC in 1551 for example) have done so just for itself, but nothing ecumenical. Happens a lot, actually.


Pax Christi


- Josiah (a fellow former Catholic, now LCMS Lutheran)

.

This counsel you are thinking of who made this decision was some time in 400's AD... That is 400 years of Mary being an ordinary Jewish woman, married with children before this happened.

The gradual elevation of her status over the centuries has reached the point where she is no longer ordinary, but divine. The whole religious bubble around this concept has reached the point where a lot of people are depending on her for their salvation. They "venerate" her, have parties in her honor, and for some of us to declare that all this is based upon a false doctrine is tantamount to treason of faith.

 

[visionary]

Incidentally, she is “the other Mary” who came to the tomb of Yeshua in Matthew 28:1.

 

[Josiah]

If we ASSUME Mary did have sex after Jesus was born..... if we ASSUME she did not..... we can easily accept all that Scripture says about that (which we both agree is... nothing, lol) - Scripture will not contradict our ASSUMPTION (or even make it problematic). Happens a lot, actually.


Actually, I'd have to review my notes. Maybe George or MoreCoffee has this on the tip of their fingers. IF I'm recalling correctly (and I may well NOT be), what the Council did (and I forget which - but one of the 7 most accept), was simply refer to her as ALWAYS VIRGIN (or something to that extend). Just giving her that TITLE. But I woudn't wiggle too much on that point, I DO accept that it was universally accepted (and for a long time!) as an affirmation of that (it's exact status from there is another issue). There are Lutherans (including my pastor) who accepts the PVM because it comes from a Council, has such strong ecumenical and historic affirmation, and (in his view) is equally possible in terms of Scripture (I, however, take a neutral stand) BUT he does NOT hold it to be dogmatic.


.

This counsel you are thinking of who made this decision was some time in 400's AD...

Yes, we did that at the Third Ecumenical Council in 431, the Council of Ephesis.

That is 400 years of Mary being an ordinary Jewish woman, married with children before this happened.

I disagree. The EARLIEST tradition was silence, a tradition that IMO is fully confirmed by Scripture (which is also silent on this normally very private matter of marital intimacy).

It wasn't until the Second Century that any opinions on this were voiced at all. The earliest known commentaries were by Tertullian (c.160 – c.225) who DENIED the perpetual virginity of Mary, and also Irenaeus (c.130 – c.202) who supported the perpetual virginity.

It is not until the 4th century that a consensus seems to form, and that in support of the opinion of the PVM. For example, references can be found in the 4th century works of Athanasius, Epiphanius, Hilary, Didymus, Ambrose, Jerome, and Siricius all supporting the perpetual virginity – a trend that gathered pace in the next century.



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

double post, sorry