Ever Virgin

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,653
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Incidentally, she is “the other Mary” who came to the tomb of Yeshua in Matthew 28:1.

The virgin Mary? There are 5 Marys within the New Testament. I have read that "the other Mary" is a different Mary since Mark 16:1 calls the other Mary "Mary, the mother of James".
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
The virgin Mary? There are 5 Marys within the New Testament. I have read that "the other Mary" is a different Mary since Mark 16:1 calls the other Mary "Mary, the mother of James".
James is also the name of Yeshua's brother who ended up leader in Jerusalem of THE WAY.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,283
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
James is also the name of Yeshua's brother who ended up leader in Jerusalem of THE WAY.

Although...


1. "Brother" doesn't remotely imply any biological connection.

2. NOWHERE in Scripture does it state that this James is the child of Mary, in fact, we don't know what Mary or what James are being spoken of in Mark 16:1. TRADITIONALLY, this is seen as the wife of Zebedee with James the greater as her son, who could NOT be the James of Acts 15 since that James died before that, and this then would not be a biological "brother" of Jesus (by Joseph or Mary).



- Josiah
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Although...


1. "Brother" doesn't remotely imply any biological connection.

2. NOWHERE in Scripture does it state that this James is the child of Mary, in fact, we don't know what Mary or what James are being spoken of in Mark 16:1. TRADITIONALLY, this is seen as the wife of Zebedee with James the greater as her son, who could NOT be the James of Acts 15 since that James died before that, and this then would not be a biological "brother" of Jesus (by Joseph or Mary).



- Josiah

You need to check your facts before posting them. You posted the scripture with Salome as the wife of Zebedee and then misinterpreted ???????????????

Matthew 27:56
56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Mark 16:16
16 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
BROTHER [N] in the New Testament:


A biological sibling by a shared father and/or mother ( Matthew 1:2 ; Luke 3:1 Luke 3:19 ).

A fellow-countryman ( Matthew 5:47 ; Acts 3:22 ; Hebrews 7:5 ).

A disciple or follower ( Matthew 25:40 ; Hebrews 2:11 Hebrews 2:12 ).

One of the same faith ( Acts 9:30 ; 11:29 ; 1 Corinthians 5:11 ); the early disciples of our Lord were known to each other as brothers (and sisters).

A colleague in office (1 Corinthians 1:1 ; 2 co 1:1 ).

A fellow-man (Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:23 Matthew 5:24 ; 7:5 ; Hebrews 2:17 ).

One beloved or closely united with another in affection (Acts 6:3 ; 1 Thessalonians 5:1 ).


It is unbiblical to insist that "brother" mandates (or even implies) a shared mother. It CAN mean that (although rarely does)




"UNTIL" in the New Testament:


Matthew 1:25, "but did not know her until she gave birth"

1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ."

1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."


It is thus unbiblical to insist that the word "until" mandates (or even implies) some cessation and/or reversal of a condition. It CAN mean that (although rarely does).




Pax Christi


- Josiah




.
 
Last edited:

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,283
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Although...


1. "Brother" doesn't remotely imply any biological connection.

2. NOWHERE in Scripture does it state that this James is the child of Mary, in fact, we don't know what Mary or what James are being spoken of in Mark 16:1. TRADITIONALLY, this is seen as the wife of Zebedee with James the greater as her son, who could NOT be the James of Acts 15 since that James died before that, and this then would not be a biological "brother" of Jesus (by Joseph or Mary).



- Josiah
Seems like those councils that you like so well and the early chruch all had the understanding that Mary had other children
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Seems like those councils that you like so well and the early chruch all had the understanding that Mary had other children


I disagree.



1. There is NO Scripture whatsoever that states Mary had other children. And as shown, the words "brother" in the NT does not mandate a shared mother and that "until" does not mandate cessation and reversal. See post 106


2. Only one Ecumenical Council said anything to this subject. It was the Council of Ephesis, which in 435 stated that Mary is "Ever Virgin." We can debate if the Council meant that as dogma but in any case, it did use that title. In no other Council is Mary mentioned. See posts #99




Some will point out that NOWHERE in Scripture (or even First and probably Second Century Tradition) is it stated that Mary had no sex ever or that Mary had no other children, thus (they insist) the Catholic/Orthodox/Sometime Protestant view of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is without biblical confirmation and earliest tradition confirmation. That's undeniably true. Others will point out that NOWHERE in Scripture (or even First and probably Second Century Tradition) is it stated that Mary had sex and/or other children, that view is without biblical and earliest tradition confirmation. That's undeniably true. BOTH "sides" in this debate are EQUALLY wrong in claiming that the Bible and earliest Tradition supports their view. BOTH "sides" in the debate are equally correct that the other side is without biblical and early Tradition confirmation, and equally wrong to claim otherwise for self. BOTH are doing the identical same thing: eisegesis, pure and simple - holding to a view and then FORCING Scripture to agree with their assumption. BOTH sides are right in pointing out the other has no Scripture and no early Tradition to support it.




Scripture is SILENT. Also SILENT is First (and probably Second and maybe even into Third) Century Tradition. SILENT on this matter of normally private marital relations. SILENT by neither stating this couple HAD sex or did NOT have sex. BOTH sides are equally imposing their assumption, NEITHER side has Scripture and early Tradition on their "side."





- Josiah



.
 
Last edited:

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Obviously, this verse says NOTHING about Mary having other children. NOTHING.

It doesn't even remotely indicate that Mary had sex - before or after the birth of Jesus (resulting in a child or otherwise). The word "until" in the original koine Greek does not even remotely IMPLY such - much less state such (the possible IMPLICATION of the modern ENGLISH word used in the TRANSLATION might - might - IMPLY that, but the original Greek does not, not at all, not a bit).


I just find it ... humorous..... that some will rebuke Catholics and Orthodox (and some Protestants) for saying that Mary did not have sex after Jesus was born because the Bible does not specifically state that.... then equally and dogmatically insist that Mary not only had sex but had other kids then PROVE (persistently!) that that Bible does not state that. Pot calling kettle black. Log/speck point.


IF the Bible doesn't say - then the Bible does not say. One MIGHT look to ancient tradition (and find ALL positions in such)...... one MIGHT insert personal opinions (and hang ups) imposed onto the text..... but the Bible remains silent on the issue. Just like 99% of denominations. Perhaps it doesn't matter so much. Perhaps it's none of our business. But silence is silence, not dogmatic proclamation - for or against.

- Josiah

Looking at other translations:

Matthew 1:25

(ESV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

(GNB) But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

(KJV) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

(MSG) But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

(NIrV) But he did not make love to her until after she gave birth to a son. And Joseph gave him the name Jesus.

(NIV) But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

(NIV84) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

(NKJV) and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

(NLT) But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named Him Jesus.

(TNIV) But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.


One might argue that the text doesn't explicitly say Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage after Jesus was born, neither does it say they did not. Terms like "he did not (act) until (event)" suggest that after (event) occurred, (act) took place - although it does arguably leave the possibility that (act) took place at some later date or never took place at all I would have expected a more explicit statement of this if it were the case.

Personally I'd take the view that for a newly married couple to not consummate their marriage would be very unusual, and therefore in the absence of anything that clearly states one way or the other the most reasonable assumption is that they did. (Of course the most reasonable assumption is still an assumption).

I think the key issue is whether or not it really matters. Nobody is disputing that Mary was the mother of Jesus and I'm really struggling to see why it matters whether or not she remained a virgin after Jesus was born. To be honest I would be inclined to say that if someone wants to make such a claim they need to indicate that it is true based on a clear statement, rather than based on a lack of anything that explicitly stated that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage after Jesus' birth.
 

George

Tis Theos Megas
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
910
Age
29
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Since Scripture is silent on this, this is where Orthodoxy and other churches will then consider tradition.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
One might argue that the text doesn't explicitly say Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage after Jesus was born, neither does it say they did not.


I agree.


And it is certain that the First Century Koine Greek word that these modern versions translate into the ENGLISH word "until" does not mean or mandate or even imply cessation and reversal of the condition. See post 106.



Personally I'd take the view that for a newly married couple to not consummate their marriage would be very unusual, and therefore in the absence of anything that clearly states one way or the other the most reasonable assumption is that they did. (Of course the most reasonable assumption is still an assumption).


Yup. An assumption. Not what the text says. YOU may personally feel this is a MORE LIKELY assumption than other assumptions (and personally, I agree) but it's still one's chosen assumption - not what the text states.

And the argument made in this thread, that the Koine Greek word translated into "until' MANDATES cessation and reversal is simply false (although the presenters of that have chosen to evade that).




I think the key issue is whether or not it really matters. Nobody is disputing that Mary was the mother of Jesus and I'm really struggling to see why it matters whether or not she remained a virgin after Jesus was born.


Interesting you should say that..... I said that at "the website that shall not be named" and got a series of warnings, infractions and eventually a fsb. It being disallowed there to say we simply don't KNOW and it probably shouldn't matter. My doing there what I've stated here (confession: most of the posts here by me are copy/pastes from ones I did long ago at that other site) got me into one WHALE of a LOT of trouble there. I like CH. I like the staff here. I like you.




To be honest I would be inclined to say that if someone wants to make such a claim they need to indicate that it is true based on a clear statement, rather than based on a lack of anything that explicitly stated that Joseph and Mary consummated their marriage after Jesus' birth.


Here we disagree.

While it is OBVIOUS I take a neutral view (indeed, I tend to lean toward it being none of our business), while I embrace the SILENCE position of over 99% of Christian denominations (not taking a dogmatic stand one way or the other), I have esteem for the strong, strong, historic, ecumenical CONSENSUS of Christians, especially as officially proclaimed in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. In MY view, if an official declaration of that (such as the Trinity or Two Natures) is claimed to be wrong, the "burden of proof" if you will lies with the few modern folks who insist that the whole of Christianity for 1700 years - the universal, ecumenical view officially proclaimed in ecumenical councils - was heretical, they have the burden of proof to show that ALL Christians were HERETICS for 1700+ years. But I realize, many admit to no acknowledgement of history or consensus and rely only on clear Scriptures (ironic, but what is and is not Scripture is...... historic consensus) but in this matter, I think what Scripture reveals is SILENCE.


Thanks for AGAIN revealing your thoughtfulness and ability to contribute.....



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,203
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Seems to me that since the holy scriptures state that Blessed Mary is a virgin what good reason can there be to affirm that she is not?
Luke 1:26-28 [26] Then, in the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent by God, to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, [27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the name of the virgin was Mary. [28] And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women."​

 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Seems to me that since the holy scriptures state that Blessed Mary is a virgin what good reason can there be to affirm that she is not?
Luke 1:26-28 [26] Then, in the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent by God, to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, [27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the name of the virgin was Mary. [28] And upon entering, the Angel said to her: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women."​

Just because she was a virgin at the time of the Annunciation does not mean she was a virgin a the time of her death (or undeath, depending on what Catholic teacher you docilicly submit to). This may be a shock to you, friend, but ALL people - every one of them, 100% of them, male and female - are virgins for years! Every single human who has ever existed on the planet Earth - regardless of color, race, ethnicity, gender, social status, religion - EVERY ONE could (for years!) say exactly what Mary did here. But MOST of them (not all, of course) eventually cease to be virgins - somewhere along the line. MOST. So, the premise of some Cathollic teachers that if one is EVER a virgin, they therefore MUST remain a virgin forever is just..... silly. It's a very popular Catholic apologetic but silly nonetheless.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,283
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
and so untrue
 

PezGirl73

Active member
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
43
Age
51
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
The one thing I've never been able to understand about the PV is that it appeared the Catholic Church was somehow saying sex would've tainted Mary somehow, yet that goes against God's teaching that sex between a man and woman who are married is a wonderful, blessed thing. I remember one of my Catholic friends stating that it would've been gross for Mary to have had sex after giving birth to Christ.

Perhaps the Catholic Church doesn't actually teach that, but if they are saying that Mary had to remain a virgin just because she birthed Christ, that's certainly how it comes across.

I don't believe in PV, and I believe that while the bible never comes out and says "Mary had other children", I do believe the exegesis that Mary had other children based on certain scriptures. If I'm talking about my father and my brother, you're not going to think "oh, she must not mean her actual brother, she just means her brother in the faith". It's stretching a bit to think that.

It's also stretching the bounds of what God considers a healthy marriage to have Joseph marry Mary and then not get to enjoy a part of that union. Why would God punish Joseph in such a way?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The one thing I've never been able to understand about the PV is that it appeared the Catholic Church was somehow saying sex would've tainted Mary somehow, yet that goes against God's teaching that sex between a man and woman who are married is a wonderful, blessed thing. I remember one of my Catholic friends stating that it would've been gross for Mary to have had sex after giving birth to Christ.

Perhaps the Catholic Church doesn't actually teach that, but if they are saying that Mary had to remain a virgin just because she birthed Christ, that's certainly how it comes across.

I don't believe in PV, and I believe that while the bible never comes out and says "Mary had other children", I do believe the exegesis that Mary had other children based on certain scriptures. If I'm talking about my father and my brother, you're not going to think "oh, she must not mean her actual brother, she just means her brother in the faith". It's stretching a bit to think that.

It's also stretching the bounds of what God considers a healthy marriage to have Joseph marry Mary and then not get to enjoy a part of that union. Why would God punish Joseph in such a way?



Beckie,

I rejoice that this topic is discussed HERE with civility, mutual respect and without anyone getting any kind of ban...... discussed openly, frankly, honestly..... I (for one) have posted things here that got me in BIG, BIG trouble elsewhere (even forced me to leave).....

My position (as you know) is simple..... We are dealing with something about which we have nothing in Scripture or earliest Tradition, and that in my personal, individual, humble, fallible, nondogmatic opinion, is of little to no consequence. That's a HIGHLY controversal view that has gotten me into SO much trouble. I disagree with those who insist that it is a matter of de-fide dogma (a matter of highest importance possible, necessary for salvation). I disagree that the Bible clearly states that Mary was or was not a PERPETUAL virgin. I disagree that early Tradition says She was or was not a PERPETUAL virgin - although I steadfastly defend that EVENTUALLY that came to be the universal opinion of Christians and that indeed this is a Marian view affirmed in the Ecumenical Councils (although the status of such is very unclear). Unlike most, I do NOT condemn the opinion as heresy or even as unbiblical NOR do I defend this opinion as dogma and biblical. It is an ancient OPINION that I find of little consequence but that I gladly permit. I've been kicked out of websites for that view. Fortunately, not this one.


GOOD to have you at CH!!!!



- Josiah





.
 
Last edited:

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,203
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The one thing I've never been able to understand about the PV is that it appeared the Catholic Church was somehow saying sex would've tainted Mary somehow, yet that goes against God's teaching that sex between a man and woman who are married is a wonderful, blessed thing. I remember one of my Catholic friends stating that it would've been gross for Mary to have had sex after giving birth to Christ.

Perhaps the Catholic Church doesn't actually teach that, but if they are saying that Mary had to remain a virgin just because she birthed Christ, that's certainly how it comes across.

I don't believe in PV, and I believe that while the bible never comes out and says "Mary had other children", I do believe the exegesis that Mary had other children based on certain scriptures. If I'm talking about my father and my brother, you're not going to think "oh, she must not mean her actual brother, she just means her brother in the faith". It's stretching a bit to think that.

It's also stretching the bounds of what God considers a healthy marriage to have Joseph marry Mary and then not get to enjoy a part of that union. Why would God punish Joseph in such a way?

It is not sex that taints anybody but unfaithfulness does taint be it sexual unfaithfulness or spiritual unfaithfulness. Blessed Mary is and ever shall be the spouse of God who bore his Son who was born of the Blessed Virgin for the salvation of the world.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,283
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
If she was Gods wife then she committed adultry by marrying Joseph, that is not supported biblically at all
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,203
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If she was Gods wife then she committed adultry by marrying Joseph, that is not supported biblically at all

There can be no adultery where there is no intercourse.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,283
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Oh thats right you dont think she had other children bur at the very least she committed bigamy. Not biblical
 
Top Bottom