Is the Christian Epistemology Circular?

[Ackbach]

The Christian epistemology, as I see it, is this: the Holy Spirit convinces the believer that the Bible is true. Now, the Bible is true regardless of whether anyone believes it or not. It is objectively true. But no one ever thinks that unless the Holy Spirit convinces him.

So I'm saying here that, when it comes to the question of "How do we know anything to be true?" - the question of epistemology - that everything must start with God. He reveals Himself to us. I'm not convinced, despite some presuppositional apologists, that the Christian epistemology is circular. Some apologists argue from the self-authenticating nature of Scripture. Now, I do agree that the Holy Scriptures are self-authenticating. However, we need not rely wholly on that: if the Holy Spirit is working with the Word, as He always seems to do, then I see nothing circular about it.

Your thoughts?

 

[psalms 91]

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth

 

[Lamb]

It could be that I'm not awake yet, but could you elaborate more on what you mean by circular?

 

[Josiah]

The Christian epistemology, as I see it, is this: the Holy Spirit convinces the believer that the Bible is true. Now, the Bible is true regardless of whether anyone believes it or not. It is objectively true. But no one ever thinks that unless the Holy Spirit convinces him.

So I'm saying here that, when it comes to the question of "How do we know anything to be true?" - the question of epistemology - that everything must start with God. He reveals Himself to us. I'm not convinced, despite some presuppositional apologists, that the Christian epistemology is circular. Some apologists argue from the self-authenticating nature of Scripture. Now, I do agree that the Holy Scriptures are self-authenticating. However, we need not rely wholly on that: if the Holy Spirit is working with the Word, as He always seems to do, then I see nothing circular about it.

Your thoughts?

I'd put it this way:

ALL epistemology embraces a norma normans (or a corpus thereof). Since that IS the embraced rule/standard/canon/norm - it can be argued that it's "circular" (again, this applies to ALL disciplines, ALL epistemological systems).

The alternative of course, is absolute, total relativism (a rejection of any epistemology) with the insistence that there is no reality, no truth (or at least its not knowable) but few seem willing to do that (perhaps because it makes self unreal.... and suicide the only reasonable option).



Thank you. And welcome to CH



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

When our faith becomes involved in a branch of philosophy "epistemology" that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge, it automatically approaches it from a point of doubt. Doubt in itself is circular in its reasoning. Doubt leads to confusion. It has lost its sense of direction, purpose, and goals.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, and God is not a God of confusion

 

[Ackbach]

It could be that I'm not awake yet, but could you elaborate more on what you mean by circular?

I mean logically circular, as in petitio principii, or begging the question, or assuming what you set out to prove. Does that answer your question?

I'd put it this way:

ALL epistemology embraces a norma normans (or a corpus thereof). Since that IS the embraced rule/standard/canon/norm - it can be argued that it's "circular" (again, this applies to ALL disciplines, ALL epistemological systems).

The alternative of course, is absolute, total relativism (a rejection of any epistemology) with the insistence that there is no reality, no truth (or at least its not knowable) but few seem willing to do that (perhaps because it makes self unreal.... and suicide the only reasonable option).

Ah, but in the Christian epistemology, as I'm arguing here, the role of the Holy Spirit needs to be appreciated. Without Him, no one accepts the Bible as true. Hence, the entire direction of our knowledge is from God to man. What is the circularity in that?

When our faith becomes involved in a branch of philosophy "epistemology" that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge, it automatically approaches it from a point of doubt. Doubt in itself is circular in its reasoning. Doubt leads to confusion. It has lost its sense of direction, purpose, and goals.

I would totally agree that, without God revealing Himself to us, we can know nothing for certain, and we must have doubts about everything. Look at science: the methodology of science is inherently fallacious (based on the inductive fallacy), and hence is only probabilistic and statistical. No scientist can know, with 100% certainty, that any scientific statement is TRUE. They can only know how good an approximation it is, and not even that perfectly.

But this is not to say that we as believers need have doubts about everything. My whole argument here is that the Christian's epistemology is extremely simple: God the Holy Spirit convinces believers that the Bible is true. While it is impossible for this to remove all doubts, I would say that it removes quite a few. We can know things for certain about God, about ourselves, about what God has done for us, and how we should live as a consequence. But we cannot know everything about God, or even about ourselves. As a consequence of the theorems Kurt Godel proved, there are infinitely many true statements, and since we are finite beings, we cannot know them all.

I would also argue that by the time any believer even approached the problems of epistemology, he would already be convinced of the truth of the Scriptures, by virtue of being a believer! So there should be no doubts about the source of his truth, even as he thinks about the issue. I have no doubts, for example, about the origin of my knowledge. Thinking about the foundation of our knowledge, from the point of view of that knowledge, need not introduce additional doubt.

I would agree that doubt is itself circular. How can you be sure you're doubting in the correct way? By more doubting? So it is that Descartes' method fails (I doubt, therefore I am, which is perhaps a better translation of cogito, ergo sum in context), because, actually, he cannot be certain that he's doubting if doubting is all he has.

 

[visionary]

God removes all doubt. Man who doubts that never met God. Or should I say, needs to go back to God and get the confirmation he needs to remove all doubt. I believe sin causes doubt.

Mark 11:22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus said to them. 23“Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.…

 

[Rens]

Circular? God says it, so it's true, it gets written down, then the Holy Spirit says it, it's still true. Why is it true? Because I say so. Quite linear actually.
When I asked my dad as a kid: "why? why? why? but why?"
he always said: because I say so. Now that I have kids I understand him lol.

 

[Ackbach]

God removes all doubt. Man who doubts that never met God. Or should I say, needs to go back to God and get the confirmation he needs to remove all doubt. I believe sin causes doubt.

Mark 11:22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus said to them. 23“Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.…

I do not argue that the believer has doubts about fundamental, primary things of the faith (who is God, who is Jesus, how is he made right with God, the truth of the Scriptures, etc.). A good, solid believer should have no doubts about any of that. I am saying that we do not know everything, that we cannot know everything, and therefore there are some statements about which we have doubt. See 2 Pet. 3:15-16. Some things are hard to understand, but that's ok. The Holy Spirit reveals enough, even for a child, so that child can be saved. The Holy Spirit does not reveal everything.

If you were to argue that the believer knows everything, I think you'd be blurring the Creator/creature distinction. Omniscience is an attribute of God alone.

 

[psalms 91]

I do not argue that the believer has doubts about fundamental, primary things of the faith (who is God, who is Jesus, how is he made right with God, the truth of the Scriptures, etc.). A good, solid believer should have no doubts about any of that. I am saying that we do not know everything, that we cannot know everything, and therefore there are some statements about which we have doubt. See 2 Pet. 3:15-16. Some things are hard to understand, but that's ok. The Holy Spirit reveals enough, even for a child, so that child can be saved. The Holy Spirit does not reveal everything.

If you were to argue that the believer knows everything, I think you'd be blurring the Creator/creature distinction. Omniscience is an attribute of God alone.

I agree noone knows it all and noone has it 100 per cent right

 

[Josiah]

I am saying that we do not know everything, that we cannot know everything, and therefore there are some statements about which we have doubt. See 2 Pet. 3:15-16. Some things are hard to understand, but that's ok. The Holy Spirit reveals enough, even for a child, so that child can be saved. The Holy Spirit does not reveal everything.

If you were to argue that the believer knows everything, I think you'd be blurring the Creator/creature distinction. Omniscience is an attribute of God alone.

Pardon the diversion, but.....


I'd put it this way: There are mysteries. We are called by God to be "stewards of the MYSTERIES of God." IMO, one of the "problems" in Christianity (well, LIFE, lol) is that folks tend to put WAY too much glory in their own brain (usually with emphasis on the brain of SELF - everyone else tends to be stupid). Overthinking has been at the heart of many heresies and needless disputes and divisions. Egoism - the firm conviction that self is smarter than God, that what God says is subject to the "logic" and "smartness" of SELF - has been a great problem.

Luther said that humility is the foundation of all good theology. I think it's often wisest to let God have the last word - even if that leaves US with questions, even if doesn't seem to "fit" our fallen, limited, sinful, human brains - even if it means tensions. God knows more about God than we do (especially than any one individual fallen bloat does - EVEN self).


Sorry.




.

 

[Ackbach]

Pardon the diversion, but.....


I'd put it this way: There are mysteries. We are called by God to be "stewards of the MYSTERIES of God." IMO, one of the "problems" in Christianity (well, LIFE, lol) is that folks tend to put WAY too much glory in their own brain (usually with emphasis on the brain of SELF - everyone else tends to be stupid). Overthinking has been at the heart of many heresies and needless disputes and divisions.

Totally agree there. Intellectuals, as often as not to impress others with their thinking skills, tend to go off the deep end. The solution is not anti-intellectualism, though. We are to think (Phil. 4:8). But we are to think Christianly, and biblically. The solution is Christian thinking.

Egoism - the firm conviction that self is smarter than God, that what God says is subject to the "logic" and "smartness" of SELF - has been a great problem.

God is only subject to His own logic, as a part of who He is. We must constantly subject our logic to that of the Scriptures to see if ours is sound.

Luther said that humility is the foundation of all good theology. I think it's often wisest to let God have the last word - even if that leaves US with questions, even if doesn't seem to "fit" our fallen, limited, sinful, human brains - even if it means tensions. God knows more about God than we do (especially than any one individual fallen bloat does - EVEN self).

Calvin was also famous for this. Constantly in his writings, if he found himself at the boundary of what the Scriptures say, he would write (loosely translated), "Eh."

Sorry.

For what? You gotta know that I have a very thick skin/skull. You'd have a very hard time insulting me, even if you worked at it. ;-)]

I love the rough-and-tumble of a good debate, particularly when the debaters are aware of logical fallacies, and studiously avoid them, and argue the points. I'm even ok with a little heat, although I tend to get a bit reticent then, and want to cool things back down. Heat rarely produces light, although sometimes it does.

 

[Alithis]

(partial quote )
Ah, but in the Christian epistemology, as I'm arguing here, the role of the Holy Spirit needs to be appreciated. Without Him, no one accepts the Bible as true. Hence, the entire direction of our knowledge is from God to man. What is the circularity in that?

just a thought , i wonder if the circular aspect comes because many do accept the bible as true (or say they do ) but then dont actually beleive the bible ... yes it confusing for sure .

 

[psalms 91]

just a thought , i wonder if the circular aspect comes because many do accept the bible as true (or say they do ) but then dont actually beleive the bible ... yes it confusing for sure .

The problem lies in interpretation of the bible, I choose to believe it for all thingsbut many limit what they believe and it comes down to interpretation. Sad but true, it seems that many want to explain away the bklessings of God in healing, leading of the spirit, God being able to talk to us, so many things

 

[Alithis]

The problem lies in interpretation of the bible, I choose to believe it for all things but many limit what they believe and it comes down to interpretation. Sad but true, it seems that many want to explain away the blessings of God in healing, leading of the spirit, God being able to talk to us, so many things

i honestly dont think it interpretation .. but rather choice .they dont like what it really says so they change what it says "in their own minds " . instead of changing their minds (repentance ) to agree with God
i think though you are FULLY correct in saying " many limit what they believe" they beleive what is comfortable to hear , but little else .
oh they say they do with their words .but their actions shout differently .

methinks i'm out of here soon ,so if you thought iv been speaking directly in the past .. you haven't seen anything yet haha .
the majority of church attendees in the west .. are not born again and not saved at all . so you're never going to get anything other then circular argument from them . they do not love the truth .

very very soon christian evangelising of any kind is going to become fully outlawed under the guise of terrosims laws and other such restrictions .. we are about to see the winnowing out of the tares from the wheat . many you claim to be christian will deny him to save their own skin .

 

[psalms 91]

i honestly dont think it interpretation .. but rather choice .they dont like what it really says so they change what it says "in their own minds " . instead of changing their minds (repentance ) to agree with God
i think though you are FULLY correct in saying " many limit what they believe" they beleive what is comfortable to hear , but little else .
oh they say they do with their words .but their actions shout differently .

methinks i'm out of here soon ,so if you thought iv been speaking directly in the past .. you haven't seen anything yet haha .
the majority of church attendees in the west .. are not born again and not saved at all . so you're never going to get anything other then circular argument from them . they do not love the truth .

very very soon christian evangelising of any kind is going to become fully outlawed under the guise of terrosims laws and other such restrictions .. we are about to see the winnowing out of the tares from the wheat . many you claim to be christian will deny him to save their own skin .

I totally agree, we are already being told thta what we preach and have preached since the beginning is hate speech and if you try to stand up for what you beolieve in you get sued. Yes it is not coming it is here and will get worse

 

[Lamb]

The problem lies in interpretation of the bible, I choose to believe it for all thingsbut many limit what they believe and it comes down to interpretation. Sad but true, it seems that many want to explain away the bklessings of God in healing, leading of the spirit, God being able to talk to us, so many things

So many people also don't want to believe that Jesus actually saves. Even among Christians they want to save themselves. The Holy Spirit gives faith so that believers can trust in the forgiveness won for them and know they are redeemed. Itching ears take them back to wanting to do something for their salvation because Jesus just wasn't enough.

 

[psalms 91]

So many people also don't want to believe that Jesus actually saves. Even among Christians they want to save themselves. The Holy Spirit gives faith so that believers can trust in the forgiveness won for them and know they are redeemed. Itching ears take them back to wanting to do something for their salvation because Jesus just wasn't enough.

We have beenover this repeatedly and all I can say is that there is a lot more to our walk once saved but I doubt you and I will ever agree on that. Paul had a lot to say about our walk and how we are suppoosed to grow

 

[Lamb]

We have beenover this repeatedly and all I can say is that there is a lot more to our walk once saved but I doubt you and I will ever agree on that. Paul had a lot to say about our walk and how we are suppoosed to grow

I agree there is the walk of the Christian, but it's not without God being a part of our lives. I rely on Him to not only save me but to Guide me in all my ways as well. The Christian is NOT alone.