LAW and GOSPEL

[Alithis]

That verse you said about Lord, Lord look what we've done for you are the ones who were trusting in their works to get in good with God. The ones who didn't realize they were doing good works (because God is working within us) were the ones Jesus commended.

No one here is telling Christians to go out and sin. No one here is telling Christians to not repent when they do sin. Oops, there it is, repentance. If man wasn't still committing sins, there wouldn't be the need to be preaching repentance at all now would there?

ahh sounds tricky ,, but nope it does not say that does it .. we must approach the scriptures honestly . And what is does say is going to make you some what uncomfortable ..

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

here we see an obedience that was not applied and the result of obedience not applied .. is .... works of lawlessness . and the result of disobedient works of lawlessness .. "depart fro me you workers of iniquity .


-and repentance is preached to whom?.. to the unrepentant . so of course you need to keep preaching repentance .until it is obeyed .
you cant repent and sin at the same time i think you have been taught that repentance is just confessing and asking forgiveness, but it is not .. the very word"repent " means to think again to change your mind. make a decision about the actions your DO . so if you persist in making the decision against god and toward sin.. you have not yet repented of doing that sin..the action of sin is evidence you have not repented of it yet.. you have not change your mind toward god you have not turned and begun obeying him .you cant say you obey God while you are busy disobeying god .. do you thin he will be fooled ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Strange.
You wrote salt for the earth.
Not salt of the earth.

I see you.

I quoted from the bible. It said "salt for the earth"

 

[Lamb]

ahh sounds tricky ,, but nope it does not say that does it .. we must approach the scriptures honestly . And what is does say is going to make you some what uncomfortable ..

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

here we see an obedience that was not applied and the result of obedience not applied .. is .... works of lawlessness . and the result of disobedient works of lawlessness .. "depart fro me you workers of iniquity .


-and repentance is preached to whom?.. to the unrepentant . so of course you need to keep preaching repentance .until it is obeyed .
you cant repent and sin at the same time i think you have been taught that repentance is just confessing and asking forgiveness, but it is not .. the very word"repent " means to think again to change your mind. make a decision about the actions your DO . so if you persist in making the decision against god and toward sin.. you have not yet repented of doing that sin..the action of sin is evidence you have not repented of it yet.. you have not change your mind toward god you have not turned and begun obeying him .you cant say you obey God while you are busy disobeying god .. do you thin he will be fooled ?

Again, no one here is preaching that man should be disobeying God. No one here states that man should not repent. I'm not sure where you think anyone is saying those things at all.

The Law tells us what we are to do and not do. The Gospel tells us what God has done, is doing and will do for us. It's something that isn't easily grasped but once done it clearly shows the Savior instead of us as Savior.

 

[Alithis]

Again, no one here is preaching that man should be disobeying God. No one here states that man should not repent. I'm not sure where you think anyone is saying those things at all.

The Law tells us what we are to do and not do. The Gospel tells us what God has done, is doing and will do for us. It's something that isn't easily grasped but once done it clearly shows the Savior instead of us as Savior.

And i was not replying to that .
But you stated...That verse you said about Lord, Lord look what we've done for you are the ones who were trusting in their works to get in good with God. "..

And i quoted the scripture itself highlitinh clearly ,that..is not what he said.. But rather he is speaking clearly to people who donot Do the will of God but instead do works of iniquity.. They sin instead of doing rightousness. And they think that the other stuff will make up for it..but it doesnt.
They needed to repent of thier works of iniquity in order. To be doing the will of god .Because works of iniquity are not the will of God.

That is what i was and am adressing.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

here we see an obedience that was not applied and the result of obedience not applied .. is .... works of lawlessness . and the result of disobedient works of lawlessness .. "depart fro me you workers of iniquity . only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

 

[Josiah]

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

Yes, the LAW says we must do the will of God - perfectly, perpetually, 24/7 - that we must be PERFECT even as and just as God is perfect, HOLY just as and even as God is holy, LOVING just as and even as Christ on the Cross is loving... we are to be RIGHTEOUS (24/7)..... we are to obey all the 613 laws of the OT (well, the moral ones) and all of the NT ones (especially the Great Commandment and Great Commission).... we are to love the Lord our God with ALL (100%) of our heart and soul and mind (24/7), we are to have the SAME attitude and life of Christ. We are NOT to fall short, to miss the mark - whether in our being, our thoughts, our words or our actions, in what we do or leave undone. The question is: Do you? Since you (like Bhatki Hindus, modern Muslims and modern Jews) look to the LAW for salvation, then you must keep the law, never falling short of any of it. Of course, SCRIPTURE says to Christians, "If anyone claims to be without sin ('sin' = to miss the mark) he is a liar and deceives only himself." Miss the mark.... fall short.... and death is the result.



Yes, the GOSPEL says that God - in His mercy, in His grace, in His unconditional love and favor...... BECAUSE of CHRIST'S righteousness, CHRIST'S obedience, CHRIST'S sacrifice, CHRIST'S love, CHRIST'S life, CHRIST'S works, CHRIST'S heart, CHRIST'S attitude, CHRIST'S victor, CHRIST'S cross, CHRIST'S blood.... because of CHRIST who is THE Savior - we are forgiven. In Him we have LIFE - here and hereafter.



BOTH Law and Gospel are true - here, now, always. In ALL their fullness, truth and power. Both. 24/7. The Law condemns us as sinners - unworthy, deserving only death, in desperate need of MERCY, forgiveness, salvation/justification, the divine Savior. The Gospel forgives us because of CHRIST (not self), giving to us mercy, forgiveness, salvation/justification, life. BOTH are true - 24/7. The Law means we are sinners who fall short, who miss the mark. The Gospel means we are saints, forgiven, washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb - the Gospel (NOT the Law, NOT by our keeping the Law - which we don't). Christians are both (always) saints and sinners. Always on our knees at the foot of the Cross..... looking to the Cross for mercy (not in the mirror for reward when all we deserve is death). The very foundation of Christianity is that we need a SAVIOR (not just extra time and sufficient help).... and that God has supplied that SAVIOR who is Jesus Christ. Christians aren't perfect.... they are forgiven. The Law doesn't save (Bhatki Hinduism, Islam and modern Judaism are wrong!), Jesus saves (Christianity is right).


The attempt to reduce both Law and Gospel to near nothingless..... to make one dependent on the other.... to entangle them, confuse them..... only destroys them both, destroying the whole basis of Christianity in the process. What results is Bhakti Hinduism: the view that we save ourselves via obeying the law - which we can do because of the extra time and sufficient help which the divine provides. Such theology is based on very, very, very weak Law and Gospel and result in self saving self, self looking in the mirror at self, with no need for any Savior (or mercy or forgiveness and certainly any Savior). But it begins by hating the very Law that is believed to save: it must be diminished, made small so that we can claim to attain it.



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

And i was not replying to that .
But you stated...That verse you said about Lord, Lord look what we've done for you are the ones who were trusting in their works to get in good with God. "..

And i quoted the scripture itself highlitinh clearly ,that..is not what he said.. But rather he is speaking clearly to people who donot Do the will of God but instead do works of iniquity.. They sin instead of doing rightousness. And they think that the other stuff will make up for it..but it doesnt.
They needed to repent of thier works of iniquity in order. To be doing the will of god .Because works of iniquity are not the will of God.

That is what i was and am adressing.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

here we see an obedience that was not applied and the result of obedience not applied .. is .... works of lawlessness . and the result of disobedient works of lawlessness .. "depart fro me you workers of iniquity . only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (ie obedience )Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’(ie sinful actions..works .. not thoughts .…-

Any work that is done to gain something and not by faith is "lawlessness". Going out to seek to do works to try to earn something is not what scripture commands. Doing works is something a Christian does and sometimes doesn't even realize it "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things for you?"

 

[Alithis]

Yes, the LAW says we must do the will of God - perfectly, perpetually, 24/7 - that we must be PERFECT even as and just as God is perfect, HOLY just as and even as God is holy, LOVING just as and even as Christ on the Cross is loving... we are to be RIGHTEOUS (24/7)..... we are to obey all the 613 laws of the OT (well, the moral ones) and all of the NT ones (especially the Great Commandment and Great Commission).... we are to love the Lord our God with ALL (100%) of our heart and soul and mind (24/7), we are to have the SAME attitude and life of Christ. We are NOT to fall short, to miss the mark - whether in our being, our thoughts, our words or our actions, in what we do or leave undone. The question is: Do you? Since you (like Bhatki Hindus, modern Muslims and modern Jews) look to the LAW for salvation, then you must keep the law, never falling short of any of it. Of course, SCRIPTURE says to Christians, "If anyone claims to be without sin ('sin' = to miss the mark) he is a liar and deceives only himself." Miss the mark.... fall short.... and death is the result.



Yes, the GOSPEL says that God - in His mercy, in His grace, in His unconditional love and favor...... BECAUSE of CHRIST'S righteousness, CHRIST'S obedience, CHRIST'S sacrifice, CHRIST'S love, CHRIST'S life, CHRIST'S works, CHRIST'S heart, CHRIST'S attitude, CHRIST'S victor, CHRIST'S cross, CHRIST'S blood.... because of CHRIST who is THE Savior - we are forgiven. In Him we have LIFE - here and hereafter.



BOTH Law and Gospel are true - here, now, always. In ALL their fullness, truth and power. Both. 24/7. The Law condemns us as sinners - unworthy, deserving only death, in desperate need of MERCY, forgiveness, salvation/justification, the divine Savior. The Gospel forgives us because of CHRIST (not self), giving to us mercy, forgiveness, salvation/justification, life. BOTH are true - 24/7. The Law means we are sinners who fall short, who miss the mark. The Gospel means we are saints, forgiven, washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb - the Gospel (NOT the Law, NOT by our keeping the Law - which we don't). Christians are both (always) saints and sinners. Always on our knees at the foot of the Cross..... looking to the Cross for mercy (not in the mirror for reward when all we deserve is death). The very foundation of Christianity is that we need a SAVIOR (not just extra time and sufficient help).... and that God has supplied that SAVIOR who is Jesus Christ. Christians aren't perfect.... they are forgiven. The Law doesn't save (Bhatki Hinduism, Islam and modern Judaism are wrong!), Jesus saves (Christianity is right).


The attempt to reduce both Law and Gospel to near nothingless..... to make one dependent on the other.... to entangle them, confuse them..... only destroys them both, destroying the whole basis of Christianity in the process. What results is Bhakti Hinduism: the view that we save ourselves via obeying the law - which we can do because of the extra time and sufficient help which the divine provides. Such theology is based on very, very, very weak Law and Gospel and result in self saving self, self looking in the mirror at self, with no need for any Savior (or mercy or forgiveness and certainly any Savior). But it begins by hating the very Law that is believed to save: it must be diminished, made small so that we can claim to attain it.



- Josiah

nope .. ..read the text , JESUS SAID we must do the wil of the father .. not the law it nothing to do with the law . you hung up on the law .most law breakers are . it reminds them they are breaking it , when you stop breaking it ,your no longer concerned with it .you can only be convicted of something one is guilty of and you can only be guilty of something you were forgiven for -if you then keep doing it . if you have been forgiven and then you stop doing it .. you cant be guilty of doing it . so repent and stop .

 

[Alithis]

Any work that is done to gain something and not by faith is "lawlessness". Going out to seek to do works to try to earn something is not what scripture commands. Doing works is something a Christian does and sometimes doesn't even realize it "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things for you?"

first , no one has said do works to be saved .. but the saved are saved from being the children of disobedience, .. they are now the children of GOD ,thus they ARE children of Obedience .
if they then go and continue to walk in disobedience .. they show whose children they really are .

ref 1 john 3, yet again. it says exactly that .

and it still doesnt say that is the reason he says depart from me .. he says it is because two reasons .. 1.they did not do the will of god .. they did their own will and 2.they did sinful works .. they continued to do sin and did not repent .
( every time a person commits an act they know to be sinful ..they are NOT doing the will of the father , every time they continue to do so , they are unrepentant -the unrepentant are not saved ).

its very clear . that's what it clearly says.

 

[Josiah]

first , no one has said do works to be saved .. but the saved are saved from being the children of disobedience, .. they are now the children of GOD ,thus they ARE children of Obedience .
if they then go and continue to walk in disobedience .. they show whose children they really are .

ref 1 john 3, yet again. it says exactly that .

and it still doesnt say that is the reason he says depart from me .. he says it is because two reasons .. 1.they did not do the will of god .. they did their own will and 2.they did sinful works .. they continued to do sin and did not repent .
( every time a person commits an act they know to be sinful ..they are NOT doing the will of the father , every time they continue to do so , they are unrepentant -the unrepentant are not saved ).

its very clear . that's what it clearly says.

Probably the worse case of mixing, confusing Law and Gospel that I've ever seen.

 

[Lamb]

first , no one has said do works to be saved .. but the saved are saved from being the children of disobedience, .. they are now the children of GOD ,thus they ARE children of Obedience .
if they then go and continue to walk in disobedience .. they show whose children they really are .

ref 1 john 3, yet again. it says exactly that .

and it still doesnt say that is the reason he says depart from me .. he says it is because two reasons .. 1.they did not do the will of god .. they did their own will and 2.they did sinful works .. they continued to do sin and did not repent .
( every time a person commits an act they know to be sinful ..they are NOT doing the will of the father , every time they continue to do so , they are unrepentant -the unrepentant are not saved ).

its very clear . that's what it clearly says.

The unfaithful, the unbelievers discard what God offers and yes, they are disobedient. How many times does it take in disobedience before they become the damned? You don't know. It's not for you to know. That's between man and God, isn't it?

The ones who remain in faith, it's because of God working in them that they are obedient, so they cannot boast. They aren't His BECAUSE they are obedient and that's where your flawed theology gets stuck and ignores the Savior. God's children are His because He calls them His own. Not because of what the children do.

 

[visionary]

I quoted from the bible. It said "salt for the earth"

Salted earth is not a good environment for plants.

 

[Alithis]

The unfaithful, the unbelievers discard what God offers and yes, they are disobedient. How many times does it take in disobedience before they become the damned? You don't know. It's not for you to know. That's between man and God, isn't it?

The ones who remain in faith, it's because of God working in them that they are obedient, so they cannot boast. They aren't His BECAUSE they are obedient and that's where your flawed theology gets stuck and ignores the Savior. God's children are His because He calls them His own. Not because of what the children do.

Now your calling the scripture itself confused theology.
I keep posting
Romans that says if we continue to sin there is no longer any sacrifice but only a fearful expectation of the wrath of God.
And
Do not present your bodies as instruments of sin to serve it
And 1 john 3 wbete its writtenthose that continue in sin do not know God etc

Dont oppose me..i didnt write it.
Yet there it is.
The direct unambiguous scripture.

In all its uncomfortable cutting words.

Like.. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

And
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

And
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

And
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

And
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. .....

You see. All these things are written.. So to approach the scriptures. Honestly we must Acknowledge what is written and submiy to it.not attempt to overlay our carnal reasoning.

ie - if its says we dont continue in sin.. But our experience doesnt match the word of god..we MUST NOT build a doctrin on oue experience, but seek to know why our experience doesnt match his word.
Not change or ignore his word and attempt to self justify our experience.

 

[Lamb]

No, I have not called scripture confused.

The Law says what WE have to do. The Romans verse you quote has Law and Gospel in there so it might be confusing YOU because you're thinking it's pure Gospel. But it's not. Once you see that the Law speaks to what we have to do and not do and the Gospel is what God has done, is doing and will still do, you'll be even more free in Christ than you think you are now.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Salted earth is not a good environment for plants.

salt preserves and the earth seems likely to be the world of people since it is the faithful who are the salt. It's an analogy I think.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, we are cmpared to salt

 

[visionary]

salt preserves and the earth seems likely to be the world of people since it is the faithful who are the salt. It's an analogy I think.

And that is where the difference comes in...

Salt of the earth.. analogy
salt in the earth... type of soil.

 

[Alithis]

No, I have not called scripture confused.

The Law says what WE have to do. The Romans verse you quote has Law and Gospel in there so it might be confusing YOU because you're thinking it's pure Gospel. But it's not. Once you see that the Law speaks to what we have to do and not do and the Gospel is what God has done, is doing and will still do, you'll be even more free in Christ than you think you are now.

i cant be more free.(i note you picked one verse and not the ones from john 3).
Jesus has set us free .not partialy free.
people just dont want to be honest that if they are continuing to do the same sin over and over..after jesus has set yhem free. that it is because they love the sin and choose to do it.
no other reason .
then they try to justify it with the phrase ..oh we are only sinners saved. but the word states a saved person is born of God and so will not continue to do the same sin over and over.
if any one does not believe christ can do what he came to do then they simply need to repent of unbelief.
its absolutley nothing to do with law of moses .
we walk in the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus.thus we are obedient to god.
we are not obefient to God when we willfully sin we rebel to do do.
if we persist ,that continuous fruit of sin shows what tree type we are of.
john states we know who the children of god are ..they cease from works of sin and do works of rightousness as led by the spirit of God whom they abide in.
the children of the devil are known by the fact they continue to do works of unrightousness.they might do lots of things in his name..but they keep doing thier favorite sin at e same time. but Gods not fooled.and he will say to them"depart from me you workers of iniquity."

its just what scipture states.
no point going down an ambiguos rabbit hole of law grace talk. what is written is written.and it is so.

 

[Lamb]

i cant be more free.(i note you picked one verse and not the ones from john 3).
Jesus has set us free .not partialy free.
people just dont want to be honest that if they are continuing to do the same sin over and over..after jesus has set yhem free. that it is because they love the sin and choose to do it.
no other reason .
then they try to justify it with the phrase ..oh we are only sinners saved. but the word states a saved person is born of God and so will not continue to do the same sin over and over.
if any one does not believe christ can do what he came to do then they simply need to repent of unbelief.
its absolutley nothing to do with law of moses .
we walk in the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus.thus we are obedient to god.
we are not obefient to God when we willfully sin we rebel to do do.
if we persist ,that continuous fruit of sin shows what tree type we are of.
john states we know who the children of god are ..they cease from works of sin and do works of rightousness as led by the spirit of God whom they abide in.
the children of the devil are known by the fact they continue to do works of unrightousness.they might do lots of things in his name..but they keep doing thier favorite sin at e same time. but Gods not fooled.and he will say to them"depart from me you workers of iniquity."

its just what scipture states.
no point going down an ambiguos rabbit hole of law grace talk. what is written is written.and it is so.

I don't know how much more I can emphatically state that no on here is encouraging people to remain in sin. Why do you think that members here are saying that it's okay when not one soul has said as much? That's your error.

 

[Alithis]

I don't know how much more I can emphatically state that no on here is encouraging people to remain in sin. Why do you think that members here are saying that it's okay when not one soul has said as much? That's your error.

you know very well others and yourself have said..
"Every one continues in sin after being saved and always will as if they have no choice"
directly oppisite to what the scriptures state.
a person can do a sin. but the scripture states when they are born of God they will NOT continue to do so.
so your emphatic declaration is false.
when you encourage people that all continue to sin (in opposition to the scriptures) you Are encouraging them to do so.. you are appeasing the sinful nature of the flesh .

 

[Lamb]

you know very well others and yourself have said..
"Every one continues in sin after being saved and always will as if they have no choice"
directly oppisite to what the scriptures state.
a person can do a sin. but the scripture states when they are born of God they will NOT continue to do so.
so your emphatic declaration is false.
when you encourage people that all continue to sin (in opposition to the scriptures) you Are encouraging them to do so.. you are appeasing the sinful nature of the flesh .

That's a false accusation you're making.

Telling people that they're doing something is not the same thing as encouraging them to do it.