When was Yeshua born?

[visionary]

While much of the world celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ on the 25th of December. I believe that we can actually figure out when Yeshua was born by clues in scripture. I will begin with the father of John the Baptist, Zacharias.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, ... 23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, ...

The clue given to us here is that Zacharias was of the "course" of Abia. There are twenty-four courses of the Temple Priesthood.

But David, being desirous of ordaining his son king of all the people, called together their rulers to Jerusalem, with the priests and the Levites; and having first numbered the Levites, he found them to be thirty-eight thousand, from thirty years old to fifty; out of which he appointed twenty-three thousand to take care of the building of the temple, and out of the same, six thousand to be judges of the people and scribes, four thousand for porters to the house of God, and as many for singers, to sing to the instruments which David had prepared, as we have said already. He divided them also into courses: and when he had separated the priests from them, he found of these priests twenty-four courses, sixteen of the house of Eleazar, and eight of that of Ithamar; and he ordained that one course should minister to God eight days, from sabbath to sabbath. And thus were the courses distributed by lot, in the presence of David, and Zadok and Abiathar the high priests, and of all the rulers; and that course which came up first was written down as the first, and accordingly the second, and so on to the twenty-fourth; and this partition hath remained to this day. — Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 7, Chapter 14, Paragraph 7.

King David on God's instructions can be found in 1 Chr 28:11-13 where he had divided the sons of Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron, into 24 groups as seen in 1 Chr 24:1-4, to setup a schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed with priests (Kohanim) all year round in an orderly manner. Not only that but lots were drawn to determine the sequence in which each group would serve in the Temple as seen in .

1 Chronicles 24:7 The first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, 11 the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim, 13 the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer, 15 the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezkel, 17 the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul, 18 the twenty-third to Delaiah, the twenty-fourth to Maaziah.

1 Chr 24:19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the LORD, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

Now each one of the 24 "courses" of priests would begin and end their service in the Temple on the Sabbath, a tour of duty being for one week (2 Chr 23:8, 1 Chr 9:25). On three occasions during the year, all the men of Israel were required to travel to Jerusalem for festivals of the Lord, so on those occasions all the priests would be needed in the Temple to accommodate the many sacrifices offered by the crowds. Those three festivals were Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabernacles (Deut 16:16).

You have to understand the Jewish mindset to understand when things occur. The Jewish calendar begins in the spring, during the month of Nisan which is around April. So the first "course" of priests, would be that of the family of Jehoiarib, who would serve for the first week of Nisan, Sabbath to Sabbath. The second week would then be the responsibility of the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the feast of Unleavened Bread, and all priests would be present for service. Then the schedule would resume with the third course of priests, the family of Harim. By this plan, when the twenty-fourth course was completed, the general cycle of courses would repeat. This schedule would cover 51 weeks or 357 days, enough for the lunar Jewish calendar (about 354 days). So, in a period of a year, each group of priests would serve in the Temple twice on their scheduled course, in addition to the 3 major festivals, for a total of about five weeks of duty.

Now you are wondering what has this to do with the birth of Yeshua. Well it is simple, you have to understand the system in place to understand why Zacharius was working in the temple and what time of the year He would be there working. IT is the time frame in which to figure out when Yeshua was born.

 

[visionary]

So now we have it established that this wasn't a day to day thing for Zacharias to be in the temple working but a cycle at certain times of the year would he be there. Let's move on to the conception of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, ...

Beginning with the first month, Nisan, in the spring (March-April), the schedule of the priest's courses would result with Zacharias serving during the 10th week of the year. This is because he was a member of the course of Abia (Abijah), the 8th course, and both the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15-21 Nisan) and Pentecost (6 Sivan) would have occurred before his scheduled duty. This places Zacharias' administration in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the third month, Sivan (May-June). Having completed his Temple service on the third Sabbath of Sivan, Zacharias returned home and soon conceived his son John. So John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly after the third Sabbath of the month of Sivan.

Now the reason that the information about John is important, is because according to Luke, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy:

Luke 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Note that verse 26 above refers to the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy, not Elul, the sixth month of the Hebrew calendar, and this is made plain by the context of verse 24 and again in verse 36:

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Mary stayed with Elizabeth for the last 3 months of her pregnancy, until the time that John was born.

Luke 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house. 57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

Now working from the information about John's conception late in the third month, Sivan, and advancing six months, we arrive late in the 9th month of Kislev (Nov-Dec) for the time frame for the conception of Jesus. It is notable here that the first day of the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Jesus is called the light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46). This does not appear to be a mere coincidence. In the book of John, Hanukkah is called the feast of dedication (John 10:22). Hanukkah is an eight day festival of rejoicing, celebrating deliverance from enemies by the relighting of the menorah in the rededicated Temple, which according to the story, stayed lit miraculously for eight days on only one day's supply of oil.

Based on a conception shortly after the third Sabbath of the month of Sivan, projecting forward an average term of about 10 lunar months (40 weeks), we arrive in the month of Nisan. It would appear that John the Baptist may have been born in the middle of the month, which would coincide with Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is interesting to note, that even today, it is customary for the Jews to set out a special goblet of wine during the Passover Seder meal, in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah that week, which is based on the prophecy of Malachi:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yeshua identified John as the "Elijah" that the Jews had expected

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The angel that appeared to Zacharias in the temple also indicated that John would be the expected "Elias":

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So then, the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th day of the 1st month, Nisan, and this is a likely date for the birth of John the Baptist, the expected "Elijah".

Ok Enough about settling the time of John the Baptist's birth and why it is important when figuring out when Yeshua was born.

 

[visionary]

Since Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist, and we have established a likely date for John's birth, we need only move six months farther down the Jewish calendar to arrive at a likely date for the birth of Yeshua. From the 15th day of the 1st month, Nisan, we go to the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri. And what do we find on that date? It is the festival of Tabernacles! The 15th day of Tishri begins the third and last festival of the year to which all the men of Israel were to gather in Jerusalem for Temple services. (Lev 23:34)

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel means "God with us". The Son of God had come to dwell with, or tabernacle on earth with His people.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot), occurs five days after the Day of Atonement, and is a festival of rejoicing and celebration of deliverance from slavery in Egypt (Leviticus 23:42-43).

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. 8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Why was there no room at the inn? Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem, and all the men of Israel had come to the Temple in Jerusalem to attend the festival of Booths/Ingathering/Tabernacles as required by the law of Moses (Exo. 23:14-17, 34:22-23, Deut 16:16). Every room for miles around Jerusalem would have been already taken by pilgrims, so all that Mary and Joseph could find for shelter was a stable. During Tabernacles, everyone was to live in temporary booths (Sukkot), as a memorial to Israel's pilgrimage out of Egypt - Lev. 23:42-43. The birth of the Savior, in what amounted to a temporary dwelling rather than a house, signaled the coming deliverance of God's people from slavery to sin, and their departing for the promised land, which is symbolized by Tabernacles.

Also of note is the fact that the Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day feast (Lev 23:36, 39). Why eight days? It may be because an infant was dedicated to God by performing circumcision on the eighth day after birth:

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

So the infant Yeshua would have been circumcised on the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, a Sabbath day. The Jews today consider this a separate festival from Tabernacles, and they call it Shemini Atzeret.

There is another indication in scripture as to when Yeshua was born.

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Yeshua said The time is fulfilled just after His baptism, upon emerging from 40 days in the wilderness. He then began His preaching ministry, Luke tells us at about the age of 30.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, ...

It is also interesting to note that Tabernacles was a feast of ingathering of the Harvest (Exo 23:16 and 34:22). If Yeshua's first coming was indeed on 15 Tishri, the first day of Tabernacles, then it is quite reasonable to presume that the harvest of this earth, the ingathering of the second coming, will also occur on precisely the same date. The unknown factor would be the year that this would happen.

Feast of Tabernacles - The Feast of Booths - Feast of Ingathering (Chag Ha-Asif) and Simchat Torah or Rejoicing in the Law and Shimini Atzeret - the eighth day

The feasts are "the Feasts of the Lord", not "the Jewish Feasts".

 

[psalms 91]

Yeah I came to that coonclusion as well

 

[visionary]

As you can see here, the Hebrew mindset looks at the year and months differently than we do. They have two calendars, the civil and the sacred. The Jews have a Civil and a Sacred Calendar. The Civil Calendar is the Official Calendar for kings, childbirth and contracts. The Sacred Calendar is used for computing the dates of religious feasts and festivals. It is based on the lunar cycle, not the solar cycle used in the Gregorian or modern calendar.

Psalm 104:19 says "He appointed the moon for seasons; the sun knows its going down."

 

[Josiah]

While much of the world celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ on the 25th of December.

Yes, but no one says Jesus was BORN on December 25. As you noted, they typically CELEBRATE His birth on that date. Apples and oranges.

I believe that we can actually figure out when Yeshua was born by clues in scripture.

While the theory you relate is interesting, it's only a THEORY. We'd know the date of Jesus' birth ONLY if GOD Himself chose to reveal it. He hasn't in 2000 years so I wouldn't hold your breath.

And I just don't know why it matters (except from a purely academic, historical perspective).

"We are stewards of the MYSTERIES of God."





.

 

[visionary]

What matters is that Yeshua is born according to the appointed time, died at the appointed time of God.... all as God set.. and Christmas is a tradition that voids the value of the commandments of God.

 

[Josiah]

What matters is that Yeshua is born according to the appointed time, died at the appointed time of God.... all as God set..

I agree. Not dates.

Christmas is a tradition that voids the value of the commandments of God.

I disagree. I know of no verse that states, "thou are forbidden from celebrating the birth of Jesus." The angels celebrated it didn't they? Maybe angels sin but I doubt it.




Just my half cent..... noting that this conversation comes up EVERY DECEMBER and this is only MAY! This is the time of year for the Trinity debates, lol.



"Be stewards of the MYSTERIES of God"



Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

I agree. Not dates.





I disagree. I know of no verse that states, "thou are forbidden from celebrating the birth of Jesus." The angels celebrated it didn't they? Maybe angels sin but I doubt it.




Just my half cent..... noting that this conversation comes up EVERY DECEMBER and this is only MAY! This is the time of year for the Trinity debates, lol.



"Be stewards of the MYSTERIES of God"



Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah

Celebrate yes....

Celebrate on the wrong day, and you miss out on God's Presence.

 

[Josiah]

Celebrate yes....

Celebrate on the wrong day, and you miss out on God's Presence.

I'm not sure it matters whether the day is right or wrong...... We celebrate Easter on a wide range of dates (but maybe you oppose that, too).

I'm not sure you can prove it was not December 25..... just as I don't think any can prove that it was (it's just no one claims that it was). Scripture doesn't say. NO ONE who was there has ever said. Can't image why it matters.

I believe that Gods' presence is constant. God is omnipresent.



My half cent.


Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

I don't think Christmas voids God's Commandments. We celebrate the birth of the one who came to die for us. That's a glorious thing.

 

[Rens]

I'm not sure it matters whether the day is right or wrong...... We celebrate Easter on a wide range of dates (but maybe you oppose that, too).

I'm not sure you can prove it was not December 25..... just as I don't think any can prove that it was (it's just no one claims that it was). Scripture doesn't say. NO ONE who was there has ever said. Can't image why it matters.

I believe that Gods' presence is constant. God is omnipresent.



My half cent.


Pax Soli Christi



- Josiah

If it was so important to God that we would celebrate His birthday on the right day after He has gone to heaven, He could have put the date in the Bible.
A funny thing I once read when a guy was saying on a forum that the 25th was all wrong and heathen heatheny? how do you call that and I looked it up, was that they think He was conceived with Chanukka and that's about the same time as christmas and all the heathen light feasts. The Light came into the world.

 

[visionary]

I did a full presentation of scripture showing how Hebrew mindset understands the events that transpired and how it is in harmony with the Will of God... Yet...it wasn't given a modern day date.. so it doesn't count??

 

[Rens]

I did a full presentation of scripture showing how Hebrew mindset understands the events that transpired and how it is in harmony with the Will of God... Yet...it wasn't given a modern day date.. so it doesn't count??

Lol you do all that effort. It counts, it's interesting, but not that important. God doesn't want us to sin, so there are clear warnings on that. Anyone can understand. But according to feast days Paul says one cares about keeping them and the other doesn't. If people don't look for the exact day it doesn't matter.

 

[Alithis]

Lol you do all that effort. It counts, it's interesting, but not that important. God doesn't want us to sin, so there are clear warnings on that. Anyone can understand. But according to feast days Paul says one cares about keeping them and the other doesn't. If people don't look for the exact day it doesn't matter.

interesting .. but one things DOES matter very much ... not what we did in our ignorance .,god is gracious , but what we do once we know the truth .. matters very much indeed .

but without getting all heavy on the topic i think the main reason people won't disregard dec25th once they are brought to the realization that it's got nothing to do with the birth of christ -is the social cost they may have to pay . its just easier to go with the crowd and please men ....

hmm and i said i wouldn't get heavy lol .. not sure if i know how to not get heavy

 

[Lamb]

Lol you do all that effort. It counts, it's interesting, but not that important. God doesn't want us to sin, so there are clear warnings on that. Anyone can understand. But according to feast days Paul says one cares about keeping them and the other doesn't. If people don't look for the exact day it doesn't matter.

Exactly right. It's not a sin to celebrate the birth of the one who came to die for us even if we don't know the exact day. We love Him. We love that He came to earth to save us.

 

[Josiah]

Exactly right. It's not a sin to celebrate the birth of the one who came to die for us even if we don't know the exact day. We love Him. We love that He came to earth to save us.

The angels celebrated His birth. The shepherds celebrated His birth. The magi celebrated His birth. I don't think the Bible clearly indicates that they THEREFORE sinned and angered God.

 

[tango]

What matters is that Yeshua is born according to the appointed time, died at the appointed time of God.... all as God set.. and Christmas is a tradition that voids the value of the commandments of God.

How does Christmas void anything?

In England HM Queen Elizabeth II was born in April yet her birthday is commemorated in June. The reason is simple, the weather is more likely to be nice in June than in April. An official celebration doesn't change anything, it doesn't change the date she was born, it doesn't change her age, it doesn't change anything about her. In a similar fashion when I celebrate my birthday it's usually within a week or two of the actual date but it's usually a weekend when the people I want to invite can make it. Again nothing is voided, nothing is changed, but there's not much point holding a party on a Tuesday evening that nobody can attend when I could shift it to the following Saturday and have a good time with my friends. From my experience of attending birthday functions I'm not the only one who does that.

Jesus never told us to commemorate the date of his birth. God never told us to commemorate the date of Jesus' birth. Somewhere in history people decided to pick a date to commemorate his birth and we just roll with it. It can be interesting from an academic perspective to figure out exactly what day he was actually born but if you could conclusively prove that he was born on (say) July 13 what would change?

I think we can be confident that Jesus was conceived at the precise moment intended by God, born at the time intended by God, and died at the time intended by God. Whether we commemorate an event he neither instructed nor forbade us to commemorate on the actual day, the nearest weekend, or a totally different date doesn't seem to change anything.

 

[tango]

Celebrate yes....

Celebrate on the wrong day, and you miss out on God's Presence.

Why would we miss out on God's presence if we do something we're neither commanded nor forbidden from doing on the wrong day?

If I can't make church one Sunday so instead decide to hold a brief service in my home with my wife on Monday, will God deny us his presence over that as well?

 

[tango]

interesting .. but one things DOES matter very much ... not what we did in our ignorance .,god is gracious , but what we do once we know the truth .. matters very much indeed .

In principle I'd agree but it's really no different from knowing full well that someone's 50th birthday was on May 30th but actually celebrating their birthday on June 4 so you get a Saturday that doesn't clash with Memorial Day. You know the truth, you just choose to commemorate the event at a slightly later date.

but without getting all heavy on the topic i think the main reason people won't disregard dec25th once they are brought to the realization that it's got nothing to do with the birth of christ -is the social cost they may have to pay . its just easier to go with the crowd and please men ....

Meh, I get a little tired of all the "keep Christ in Christmas" rants during December. I can't see that, name aside, Christ was ever anything to do with Christmas. As far as I can tell it's a date chosen to notionally mark the birth of Christ, a date that may or may not have been hijacked from pagan festivals by Christians who then complained when the date was hijacked by those who worship in the temples of Mammon. The only thing I particularly find troublesome are things like Christmas songs that say things like "Christ was born today" when it's far more likely than not that he wasn't. I don't mind a bit of artistic license in general but don't like things presented as truth unless they are actually true.