Praying to the deceased - correlation with those who believe in ghosts?

[TurtleHare]

I am a bit curious if there is a correlation between those who pray to the deceased if they also believe that the deceased become ghosts who still walk the earth and haunt us?

I don't believe in ghosts but I know there are Christians who do and I think the evil spirits are just tricking y'all <_<

 

[psalms 91]

I agree completely

 

[Alithis]

but people say they dont pray to the deceased -they earnestly ask them to pray FOR them- mary is deceased .. (it means departed from this world , dead in the flesh , no longer with us presently in this life )

and the ridiculous denial is made more ridiculous by the fact that the word "pray".. means - "ask earnestly "

as for ghosts .. and communicating with the departed .they are surely demons -familiar spirits .. and they are deceiving. many of them appear in the form of mary too .

 

[visionary]

That is a forbidden conversation.

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

"Familiar spirits" are demons. They copycat which ever "familiar" family member or friend that the people crave to speak to. The dead are dead and hear not. It is a deception of the worse kind. Because it is of the spiritual realm, people are easily fooled into believing every word. We are suppose to be wiser than this.

2 Corinthians 2 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Here is the problem. Deception is one of the great tools of the devil that he uses on all people including believers. Deception is always present in one’s relationship with a familiar spirit even though the person is not aware it is a familiar spirit but thinks it’s just an idea or thought. The person having a familiar spirit may not recognize that it is a spirit entity with whom he is having a relationship. He may think that his experiences are only within his imaginations and fantasies or part of his personality.

God’s Word clearly forbids communication with spirits of the dead. “There shall not be found among you anyone who…calls up the dead” Deut. 18:10, 11. Some, whose loved ones have died, are tempted to communicate with them. Instead of contacting the spirit of their loved ones, they come into contact with familiar spirits who impersonate deceased friends or relatives.

Why is the ouija board dangerous? Because it is talking to the spirit board. Just because one stays away from this, doesn't mean that is the only form of communication the devil uses. Through divination, an attempt to discern future events or to discover that which cannot be known by normal methods, a familiar spirit is sought to assist a person in his quest for hidden knowledge, guidance and power.

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Through transcendental meditation which is a passive meditation coupled with trance-producing techniques and the chanting of a mantra, opens a person directly to the demonic realm. In his attempt to discover true enlightenment and empting himself of all self-identity and will-power, he opens himself to deceiving spirits who impersonate favorite dead people, Deity and divulge false revelation of secret and hidden mysteries.

Visualization is a method used for centuries by sorcerers to contact demonic powers. Visualization which is a counterfeit of faith is an attempt to see, by the function of the natural mind, that which can only be seen by the spiritual eye of faith known today as the "third eye".

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, ...

 

[Stravinsk]

There are a number of verses from the OT that the 7th day Adventists like to use to prove that ghosts are not real, that the dead are dead, and have no part in the living. In my opinion they do make a good case.

I know after C died, there was certain events that freaked me. I don't want to go into detail about what those were, but they involved what I considered a possible paranormal event - certain objects crashed for no known reason and I know it wasn't my cat, since she was with me. I also felt oppressed - stifled, like my spirit was being strangled when I remembered her in a certain way. At one point I had to leave my residence and go to a friend's place because I was so freaked out.

I attribute this to evil or demonic activity, using my heavily emotional state to confuse and oppress me. As visionary said, a familiar spirit, something using memories and emotional attachments to attack me.

As far as the OT goes, the only story that comes to mind is that of Saul and the witch of Endor. Was Samuel actually brought back, or was it a familiar spirit that knew something?

With regards to occulted (hidden) knowledge. I do not believe such knowledge is necessarily attributed to demons or evil spirits. There are certain things I believe that some Christians might consider "occult" (and therefore evil) - but most of these people simply have been taught to associate the word with certain symbols and practices that aren't necessarily forbidden outright even in the bible. Heck, the science of distilling alcohol was once considered "occult" if the history I've read is accurate.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent has this to say on the matter of invoking the saints.

CCT 1991 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT : "I am the lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. I am the lord thy god, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

CCT 2009 Veneration And Invocation Of Angels And Saints Not Forbidden By This Commandment

CCT 2010 In explanation of this Commandment it should be accurately taught that the veneration and invocation of holy Angels and of the blessed who now enjoy the glory of heaven, and likewise the honour which the Catholic Church has always paid even to the bodies and ashes of the Saints, are not forbidden by this Commandment. If a king ordered that no one else should set himself up as king, or accept the honours due to the royal person, who would be so foolish as to infer that the sovereign was unwilling that suitable honour and respect should be paid to his magistrates? Now although Christians follow the example set by the Saints of the Old Law, and are said to adore the Angels, yet they do not give to Angels that honour which is due to God alone.

CCT 2011 And if we sometimes read that Angels refused to be worshipped by men, we are to know that they did so because the worship which they refused to accept was the honour due to God alone.​

CCT 2012 It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Angels

CCT 2013 The Holy Spirit who says: Honour and glory to God alone, commands us also to honour our parents and elders; and the holy men who adored one God only are also said in Scripture to have adored, that is, supplicated and venerated kings. If then kings, by whose agency God governs the world, are so highly honoured, shall it be deemed unlawful to honour those angelic spirits whom God has been pleased to constitute His ministers, whose services He makes use of not only in the government of His Church, but also of the universe, by whose aid, although we see them not, we are every day delivered from the greatest dangers of soul and body ? Are they not worthy of far greater honour, since their dignity so far surpasses that of kings?

CCT 2014 Add to this their love towards us, which, as we easily see from Scripture, prompts them to pour out their prayers for those countries over which they are placed, as well as for us whose guardians they are, and whose prayers and tears they present before the throne of God Hence our Lord admonishes us in the Gospel not to offend the little ones because their angels in heaven always see the face of their Father who is in heaven.

CCT 2015 Their Intercession, therefore, we ought to invoke, because they always see tile face of God, and are constituted by Him the willing advocates of our salvation. The Scriptures bear witness to such invocation. Jacob entreated the Angel with whom he wrestled to bless him; nay, he even compelled him, declaring that he would not let him go until he had blessed him. And not only did he invoke the blessing of the Angel whom he saw, but also of him whom he saw not. The angel, said he, who delivers me from all evils, bless these boys.​

CCT 2016 It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Saints

CCT 2017 From all this we may conclude that to honour the Saints who nave slept in the Lord, to invoke them, and to venerate their sacred relics and ashes, far from diminishing, tends considerably to increase the glory of God, in proportion as man's hope is thus animated and fortified, and he himself encouraged to imitate the Saints.

CCT 2018 This is a practise which is also supported by the authority' of the second Council of Nice, the Councils of Gangra, and of Trent, and by the testimony of the Fathers. In order, however, that the pastor may be the better prepared to meet the objections of those who deny this doctrine, he should consult particularly St. Jerome against Vigilantius and St. Damascene. To the teaching of these Fathers should be added as a consideration of prime importance that the practise was received from the Apostles, and has always been retained and preserved in the Church of God.

CCT 2019 But who can desire a stronger or more convincing proof than that which is supplied by the admirable praises given in Scripture to the Saints? For there are not wanting eulogies which God Himself pronounced on some of the Saints. If, then, Holy Writ celebrates their praises, why should not men show them singular honour?

CCT 2020 A stronger claim which the Saints have to be honoured and invoked is that they constantly pray for our salvation and obtain for us by their merits and influence many blessings from God. If there is joy in heaven over the conversion of one sinner, will not the citizens of heaven assist those who repent? When they are invoked, will they not obtain for us the pardon of sins, and the grace of God ?​

 

[Alithis]

As usual ..rome uses its own traditio. To make null & void the word of God.

Sadly we will notbe judged by romes standard but by the word of God.
So dont be conformed To this world ..

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is all biblical.

 

[Alithis]

Rubbish.. The bible says dont do it.
That load of waffle. Attempts to redefine what "it" is.

It doesn't wash now, then or on judgement day.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup you are right on

 

[visionary]

It is all biblical.

Not a single scripture in the quote you posted.

 

[Lamb]

There are a number of verses from the OT that the 7th day Adventists like to use to prove that ghosts are not real, that the dead are dead, and have no part in the living. In my opinion they do make a good case.

I know after C died, there was certain events that freaked me. I don't want to go into detail about what those were, but they involved what I considered a possible paranormal event - certain objects crashed for no known reason and I know it wasn't my cat, since she was with me. I also felt oppressed - stifled, like my spirit was being strangled when I remembered her in a certain way. At one point I had to leave my residence and go to a friend's place because I was so freaked out.

I attribute this to evil or demonic activity, using my heavily emotional state to confuse and oppress me. As visionary said, a familiar spirit, something using memories and emotional attachments to attack me.

As far as the OT goes, the only story that comes to mind is that of Saul and the witch of Endor. Was Samuel actually brought back, or was it a familiar spirit that knew something?

With regards to occulted (hidden) knowledge. I do not believe such knowledge is necessarily attributed to demons or evil spirits. There are certain things I believe that some Christians might consider "occult" (and therefore evil) - but most of these people simply have been taught to associate the word with certain symbols and practices that aren't necessarily forbidden outright even in the bible. Heck, the science of distilling alcohol was once considered "occult" if the history I've read is accurate.

I'm glad you weren't deceived concerning those incidents! I do think that the demons want us to believe that our loved ones didn't get to heaven and think they can turn us away from God.

I don't pray to those who are dead or ask them for prayers except the Savior who died for us. Is there a connection between those who pray (ask for prayers) and those who believe that those spirits still walk the earth? I've seen some examples and I don't think it's just a Catholic thing. Don't the native Americans have similar beliefs or am I far off on this?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not a single scripture in the quote you posted.

That is not correct. Just not a single chapter & verse reference, but there are many scripture quotes in the CCT paragraphs that I posted. It is left to the faithful to recognise them and apply them. I would give the references but it seems more work than is worth performing for a chat where nobody seems very interested in what the scriptures say if they can pretend to have a grasp of what the scriptures really mean.

 

[MoreCoffee]

For the doubter who might claim there's not a single scripture quote in the post below, here is the post with the passage references show in bold. References are from the Douay Rheims Bible in which the verse and chapter numbering does not match that which is common in Protestant English bibles.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent has this to say on the matter of invoking the saints.

CCT 1991 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT : "I am the lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. I am the lord thy god, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exo 20:2-6

CCT 2009 Veneration And Invocation Of Angels And Saints Not Forbidden By This Commandment

CCT 2010 In explanation of this Commandment it should be accurately taught that the veneration and invocation of holy Angels and of the blessed who now enjoy the glory of heaven, and likewise the honour which the Catholic Church has always paid even to the bodies and ashes of the Saints, are not forbidden by this Commandment. If a king ordered that no one else should set himself up as king, or accept the honours due to the royal person, who would be so foolish as to infer that the sovereign was unwilling that suitable honour and respect should be paid to his magistrates? Now although Christians follow the example set by the Saints of the Old Law, and are said to adore the Angels, yet they do not give to Angels that honour which is due to God alone.

CCT 2011 And if we sometimes read that Angels refused to be worshipped by men, we are to know that they did so because the worship which they refused to accept was the honour due to God alone. Rev 19:10; 22:9​

CCT 2012 It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Angels

CCT 2013 The Holy Spirit who says: Honour and glory to God alone 1Tim 1:17; Exo 20:12; Lev 19:32, commands us also to honour our parents and elders; and the holy men who adored one God only are also said in Scripture to have adored, that is, supplicated and venerated kings. If then kings, by whose agency God governs the world, are so highly honoured Gen 23:7; 2Ki 24:20; 1Ch 29:20, shall it be deemed unlawful to honour those angelic spirits whom God has been pleased to constitute His ministers, whose services He makes use of not only in the government of His Church, but also of the universe, by whose aid, although we see them not, we are every day delivered from the greatest dangers of soul and body ? Are they not worthy of far greater honour, since their dignity so far surpasses that of kings?

CCT 2014 Add to this their love towards us, which, as we easily see from Scripture Dan 10:13, prompts them to pour out their prayers for those countries over which they are placed, as well as for us whose guardians they are, and whose prayers and tears they present before the throne of God Tobit 12:12. Hence our Lord admonishes us in the Gospel not to offend the little ones because their angels in heaven always see the face of their Father who is in heaven. Matt 18:10

CCT 2015 Their Intercession, therefore, we ought to invoke, because they always see tile face of God, and are constituted by Him the willing advocates of our salvation. The Scriptures bear witness to such invocation. Jacob entreated the Angel with whom he wrestled to bless him; nay, he even compelled him, declaring that he would not let him go until he had blessed him. And not only did he invoke the blessing of the Angel whom he saw, but also of him whom he saw not. The angel, said he, who delivers me from all evils, bless these boys.​

CCT 2016 It Is Lawful To Honour And Invoke The Saints

CCT 2017 From all this we may conclude that to honour the Saints who nave slept in the Lord, to invoke them, and to venerate their sacred relics and ashes, far from diminishing, tends considerably to increase the glory of God, in proportion as man's hope is thus animated and fortified, and he himself encouraged to imitate the Saints.

CCT 2018 This is a practise which is also supported by the authority' of the second Council of Nice, the Councils of Gangra, and of Trent, and by the testimony of the Fathers. In order, however, that the pastor may be the better prepared to meet the objections of those who deny this doctrine, he should consult particularly St. Jerome against Vigilantius and St. Damascene. To the teaching of these Fathers should be added as a consideration of prime importance that the practise was received from the Apostles, and has always been retained and preserved in the Church of God.

CCT 2019 But who can desire a stronger or more convincing proof than that which is supplied by the admirable praises given in Scripture to the Saints? For there are not wanting eulogies which God Himself pronounced on some of the Saints. If, then, Holy Writ celebrates their praises, why should not men show them singular honour? Sir 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49; Heb 11

CCT 2020 A stronger claim which the Saints have to be honoured and invoked is that they constantly pray for our salvation and obtain for us by their merits and influence many blessings from God. If there is joy in heaven over the conversion of one sinner Luke 15:7,10, will not the citizens of heaven assist those who repent? When they are invoked, will they not obtain for us the pardon of sins, and the grace of God ?​

 

[psalms 91]

I'm glad you weren't deceived concerning those incidents! I do think that the demons want us to believe that our loved ones didn't get to heaven and think they can turn us away from God.

I don't pray to those who are dead or ask them for prayers except the Savior who died for us. Is there a connection between those who pray (ask for prayers) and those who believe that those spirits still walk the earth? I've seen some examples and I don't think it's just a Catholic thing. Don't the native Americans have similar beliefs or am I far off on this?

No they do hold to similiar beliefs

 

[psalms 91]

That is not correct. Just not a single chapter & verse reference, but there are many scripture quotes in the CCT paragraphs that I posted. It is left to the faithful to recognise them and apply them. I would give the references but it seems more work than is worth performing for a chat where nobody seems very interested in what the scriptures say if they can pretend to have a grasp of what the scriptures really mean.

You mean like the great giulf between those living and those dead? That scripture?

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm glad you weren't deceived concerning those incidents! I do think that the demons want us to believe that our loved ones didn't get to heaven and think they can turn us away from God.

(quote snipped)

It wasn't that. I don't need assurance that she is in heaven, as I believe God is loving and fair, and it is His decision. I also understand Hell differently than most Christians, I believe it is most likely a form of annihilationism. I really don't want to argue those points in this thread though.

The problem was that I wanted her to be there so bad I began speaking to her as if she was.

 

[kiwimac]

Ah more anti catholic rhetoric.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

 

[Alithis]

I'm glad you weren't deceived concerning those incidents! I do think that the demons want us to believe that our loved ones didn't get to heaven and think they can turn us away from God.

I don't pray to those who are dead or ask them for prayers except the Savior who died for us. Is there a connection between those who pray (ask for prayers) and those who believe that those spirits still walk the earth? I've seen some examples and I don't think it's just a Catholic thing. Don't the native Americans have similar beliefs or am I far off on this?

yes .. many cultures do . its termed "ancestral worship"

 

[Alithis]

Ah more anti catholic rhetoric.

Sent from my SM-A500Y using Tapatalk

depends on ones point of view .. the op i think is not anti catholic ,so i doubt that was the intent .
and coffee's post is anti bible .. being that the underlying sentiment opposes the plain unambiguous text of the bible .

and yup, of course, i am opposed to the teachings that come out of the rcc .while being fully supportive of the scriptures . i simple see a blatant contradiction between the two and cannot follow the both .. so i choose the scriptures over Rome, ALWAYS