Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Alithis]

The good news is that because we cannot fully obey the Law, Jesus died in our place because HE could fully obey it.

No one here condones sinning. Have you seen such a post?

I have seen many imply it but then deny they did.i have seen many say..all sin.. ,But they are speaking of all those not yet born again ,not yet made a new creation in christ.
Christ came to set us free AND change us.not leave us the same.he gives the power to walk in his rightousness .
So many imply that it is ok to remain in sin.
They do so by saying ..every one still sins.but when i ask them what sin they refer to,they cant say .
What is the point of setting some one free if they then refuse to leave thier former bondage..?
By doing so they mock their deliverer .
What Jesus has accomplished for us is nothing short of astoundingly wonderful. He has made it possible for us to live in the rightousness of God.



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[Lamb]

I have seen many imply it but then deny they did.i have seen many say..all sin.. ,But they are speaking of all those not yet born again ,not yet made a new creation in christ.
Christ came to set us free AND change us.not leave us the same.he gives the power to walk in his rightousness .
So many imply that it is ok to remain in sin.
They do so by saying ..every one still sins.but when i ask them what sin they refer to,they cant say .
What is the point of setting some one free if they then refuse to leave thier former bondage..?
By doing so they mock their deliverer .
What Jesus has accomplished for us is nothing short of astoundingly wonderful. He has made it possible for us to live in the rightousness of God.



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Again, no one is insisting that man continues to stay in his sin which you think someone (anyone??) here is promoting. What you fail to realize is that we do still sin and that's something that you should be corrected on.

 

[Josiah]

The good news is that because we cannot fully obey the Law, Jesus died in our place because HE could fully obey it.

No one here condones sinning.

Bingo.



Pax CHRISTI





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[MoreCoffee]

I am not so sure that Jesus died as a substitute for us. Exactly where is that in the holy scriptures?

 

[psalms 91]

He paid the price for our sin, sin equals death, therefore Jesus died for us and our sin

 

[Lamb]

I am not so sure that Jesus died as a substitute for us. Exactly where is that in the holy scriptures?

2 Corinthians 5:21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am not so sure that Jesus died as a substitute for us. Exactly where is that in the holy scriptures?

2 Corinthians 5:21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If I send in a form on your behalf (admittedly a very small task) I have not substituted for you. I just did something to help you out. Substitution in the sense in which substitutionary atonement explains the atonement of Christ is much much more involved than doing something one behalf of another.

The New Jerusalem Bible says it this way: For our sake he made the sinless one a victim for sin, so that in him we might become the uprightness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[Alithis]

Again, no one is insisting that man continues to stay in his sin which you think someone (anyone??) here is promoting. What you fail to realize is that we do still sin and that's something that you should be corrected on.

And what you miss is just because people all sin( According to you though you've yet to state what sin it is that you keep doing)
Does mean it is ever acceptable to do so.
Nor does it mean we HAVE to.
So if sin is never acceptable (and we speak of direct unambiguous sin as defined by the 10 absolutes listed in deuteronomy 5&6.)

The scripture states plainly that before christ.. We have all sinned and none are rightous.
Why do i add..:before christ?

Simply because once a person has obeyed the message of the gospel,changed thier mind and turned away from the persuit of sin.. Been buried.by baptism in water for the remission of sin.. That they are made alive again by the jholy spirit and are raised up a new creation in christ jesus.the scripture states they are made the rightousness of God in Christ jesus. Thus the verse speaking abour all who have sinned ,cannot apply to the reborn untill they go and sin.
Is the scipture true..?
At that point they already stand before god ,justified and set apart unto god.
At that point there is no record of past sin.thier past is gone.buried in christs death.

Now ,at what point does this new creation have to sin.. ?
At no point.
And nothing can make them.theymust choose to.
Now,if they do mess up. There is forgivness and they will cry out for it.for the new nature of christ within them will give them no peace untill the make themselves right with god by thier repentance. And when they obtain his forgivness they will be all filled with gratitude and they wont go and do it again.
They will put to death that sinful natue and choose to live in the spirit of god..they will go onward.justified by faith and thier life will prove it is so by the absence of that sin in thier life.

They will not go on and on doing it again and again. As that action displays they have never yet repented..they have not yet changed thier mind toward God.
Because it is impossible to obey god and sin at the same time.

 

[Lamb]

And what you miss is just because people all sin( According to you though you've yet to state what sin it is that you keep doing)
Does mean it is ever acceptable to do so.
Nor does it mean we HAVE to.
So if sin is never acceptable (and we speak of direct unambiguous sin as defined by the 10 absolutes listed in deuteronomy 5&6.)

The scripture states plainly that before christ.. We have all sinned and none are rightous.
Why do i add..:before christ?

Simply because once a person has obeyed the message of the gospel,changed thier mind and turned away from the persuit of sin.. Been buried.by baptism in water for the remission of sin.. That they are made alive again by the jholy spirit and are raised up a new creation in christ jesus.the scripture states they are made the rightousness of God in Christ jesus. Thus the verse speaking abour all who have sinned ,cannot apply to the reborn untill they go and sin.
Is the scipture true..?
At that point they already stand before god ,justified and set apart unto god.
At that point there is no record of past sin.thier past is gone.buried in christs death.

Now ,at what point does this new creation have to sin.. ?
At no point.
And nothing can make them.theymust choose to.
Now,if they do mess up. There is forgivness and they will cry out for it.for the new nature of christ within them will give them no peace untill the make themselves right with god by thier repentance. And when they obtain his forgivness they will be all filled with gratitude and they wont go and do it again.
They will put to death that sinful natue and choose to live in the spirit of god..they will go onward.justified by faith and thier life will prove it is so by the absence of that sin in thier life.

They will not go on and on doing it again and again. As that action displays they have never yet repented..they have not yet changed thier mind toward God.
Because it is impossible to obey god and sin at the same time.

You sin too, Alithis even though you are in denial.

 

[visionary]

Bingo.



Pax CHRISTI .

Faulty ideology.... God doesn't make junk. Just because man has fallen short of the glory of God, doesn't mean he is incapable of living up to God's standards. So while I agree that Yeshua has filled in the gap, I wouldn't want to leave this post on the part where we are failures, for we can overcome, we can be victorious, and we can be saints who keep His commandments and have the faith of Yeshua. We can ultimately be Holy as He is Holy, and righteous.

 

[psalms 91]

Faulty ideology.... God doesn't make junk. Just because man has fallen short of the glory of God, doesn't mean he is incapable of living up to God's standards. So while I agree that Yeshua has filled in the gap, I wouldn't want to leave this post on the part where we are failures, for we can overcome, we can be victorious, and we can be saints who keep His commandments and have the faith of Yeshua. We can ultimately be Holy as He is Holy, and righteous.

Absolutely we can but I have never met anyone who has so I think God for Him

 

[Josiah]

Faulty ideology.... God doesn't make junk. Just because man has fallen short of the glory of God, doesn't mean he is incapable of living up to God's standards. So while I agree that Yeshua has filled in the gap, I wouldn't want to leave this post on the part where we are failures, for we can overcome, we can be victorious, and we can be saints who keep His commandments and have the faith of Yeshua. We can ultimately be Holy as He is Holy, and righteous.

I see. So, please, list for us the full names of just 10 living Christians who "hit the mark" who never fall short of all that follows ("sin" - "to miss the mark")

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

First John 2:6, "You must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

Who does that...... perfectly....... 24/7...... as much as God does....... NEVER missing those marks in nature, thought, word or deed..... in things/thoughts/words done or left undone..... ALWAYS doing/not doing EXACTLY, PERFECTLY, DIVINELY as God directs?



Of course, your list would prove Scripture to be lying. For Scripture says...

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."


And of course, your list would would mean Jesus is a joke - an irrelevant, unnecessary joke. "If we could keep the law, then Christ died for no purpose" the Bible tells us. Your list would prove we don't need a Savior, we just need enough help and time to save ourselves (or more technically, make ourselves such that we need no salvation, no Christ, no God, no Cross, no mercy, no forgiveness cuz we got self - which is, of course, the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, not Christianity).




Thanks



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

I see. So, please, list for us the full names of just 10 living Christians who "hit the mark" who never fall short of all that follows ("sin" - "to miss the mark")

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

First John 2:6, "You must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

Who does that...... perfectly....... 24/7...... as much as God does....... NEVER missing those marks in nature, thought, word or deed..... in things/thoughts/words done or left undone..... ALWAYS doing/not doing EXACTLY, PERFECTLY, DIVINELY as God directs?



Of course, your list would prove Scripture to be lying. For Scripture says...

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."


And of course, your list would would mean Jesus is a joke - an irrelevant, unnecessary joke. "If we could keep the law, then Christ died for no purpose" the Bible tells us. Your list would prove we don't need a Savior, we just need enough help and time to save ourselves (or more technically, make ourselves such that we need no salvation, no Christ, no God, no Cross, no mercy, no forgiveness cuz we got self - which is, of course, the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, not Christianity).




Thanks



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

Yeshua would have never said "Go and sin no more" if He knew it was impossible. We would not be encouraged to over come in this world, now, if it wasn't going to happen or not possible. 144,000 are without guile and will be the perfect examples of those who do live without sin before His second coming and in this world of sin. It is proof it can be done with fallen men/women who do not have the divine seed to start with.

I know it is not possible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But a day is coming where the indwelling will be in its fullness, and we will be transformed like Yeshua on the Mount of Transfiguration. With the early rains in the Spring Feasts, Pentecost, we can look forward to the latter rains in the Fall Feasts, Feast of Trumpets.

Jeremiah 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the Lord our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

We need these outpourings from heaven to be transformed completely, so that no temptation will overwhelm us.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

If you know the Jewish calendar, you would know that there is the first month of the civil year and in the sacred year. The sacred year is 7 months long starting in the spring with the Passover - 14th day in - to - Feast of Tabernacles - Eighth day. The civil year is the time when their calendar starts which is at the Feast of Trumpets. So when you read this following verse, understand that the early rain goes with the first sacred year month, and the latter rain goes with the first civil year month.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

So we wait for the outpouring [rain] of the Holy Spirit upon us. We are His Temple, and we are to be filled with His Spirit, not in moments of great spiritual awakenings, enlightening, inspirations, but full, complete, without stopping, forever indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the only way we are going to be able to live in the Presence of God forever.

 

[Josiah]

I see. So, please, list for us the full names of just 10 living Christians who "hit the mark" who never fall short of all that follows ("sin" - "to miss the mark")

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

First John 2:6, "You must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


Who does that...... perfectly....... 24/7...... as much as God does....... NEVER missing those marks in nature, thought, word or deed..... in things/thoughts/words done or left undone..... ALWAYS doing/not doing EXACTLY, PERFECTLY, DIVINELY as God directs?




Of course, your list would prove Scripture to be lying. For Scripture says...

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



And of course, your list would would mean Jesus is a joke - an irrelevant, unnecessary joke. "If we could keep the law, then Christ died for no purpose" the Bible tells us. Your list would prove we don't need a Savior, we just need enough help and time to save ourselves (or more technically, make ourselves such that we need no salvation, no Christ, no God, no Cross, no mercy, no forgiveness cuz we got self - which is, of course, the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, not Christianity).




Thanks



Pax CHRISTI

Yeshua would have never said "Go and sin no more" if He knew it was impossible.

Even IF all things God commands are POSSIBLE to fallen humans, so what? It's GOD who says, "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." It's GOD who says, "NO ONE does what is right, not one." It's GOD who says, "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." It's GOD who says "ALL fall short" "ALL miss the mark" (the meaning of sin is missing the mark). It's GOD who says, "if any CLAIMS to be without sin, he is a liar and makes God a liar."

IF some are absolutely, divinely PERFECT as God is.... IF some are absolutely, divinely HOLY as God is.... IF some are absolutely, divinely LOVING as God is..... IF some have HIT the mark - then it should be really easy to list them. By name.... all those with the identical character and life of God (perfectly, 24/7), those who "HIT the mark" and never miss (missing the mark.... falling short.... that's the definition of sin, the meaning of the word). So, it should be really easy to post the full names of just 10 such living people. Can you do that?


And of course, if you can - then Jesus was a joke. "If justification were through keeping the law (never missing the mark) then Christ died for no purpose" says God. IF you can be all perfect, holy, loving.... as God..... 24/7..... then why are you a Christian? You don't need Christ (or God for that matter), all you needed was time and help (the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, NOT Christianity).

Consider all the above, friend.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

The Law doesn't require possibility. But even IF all things God commands are POSSIBLE to fallen humans, so what? It's GOD who says, "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." It's GOD who says, "NO ONE does what is right, not one." It's GOD who says, "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." It's GOD who says "ALL fall short" "ALL miss the mark" (the meaning of sin is missing the mark).

IF some are absolutely, divinely PERFECT as God is.... IF some are absolutely, divinely HOLY as God is.... IF some are absolutely, divinely LOVING as God is..... IF some have HIT the mark - then it should be really easy to list them. By name.... all those with the identical character and life of God (perfectly, 24/7), those who "HIT the mark" and never miss (missing the mark.... falling short.... that's the definition of sin, the meaning of the word). So, it should be really easy to post the full names of just 10 such living people. Can you do that?


And of course, if you can - then Jesus was a joke. "If justification were through keeping the law (never missing the mark) then Christ died for no purpose" says God. IF you can be all perfect, holy, loving.... as God..... 24/7..... then why are you a Christian? You don't need Christ (or God for that matter), all you needed was time and help (the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, NOT Christianity).

Consider all the above, friend.


Pax CHRISTI

- Josiah

OK.. you believe it is not possible... and I believe it is more than possible.. because through God all things are possible.. and because that is God's ultimate goal... it will happen..Thy Will be done as it is in heaven.....

 

[Josiah]

OK.. you believe it is not possible... and I believe it is more than possible.....

Possible, MAYBE. But since it never happens, kind of an irrelevant point, don't you think?


I reject the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism (with enough time and help, we rise to absolute perfection, holiness, love and life - thus being sinless and attaining the level of needing no salvation, no mercy). Even if such were POSSIBLE (even Bhaki Hindus believe such requires millions of reincarnations - NOT ONE PERSON ALIVE NOW may reach it in this life), then Christ died for no purpose and is a joke since we don't need God or Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or salvation - just time and help. "If justification were through keeping the law (never missing the mark - "sin") then Christ died for no purpose."



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

Possible, MAYBE. But since it never happens, kind of an irrelevant point, don't you think?


I reject the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism (with enough time and help, we rise to absolute perfection, holiness, love and life - thus being sinless and attaining the level of needing no salvation, no mercy). Even if such were POSSIBLE (even Bhaki Hindus believe such requires millions of reincarnations - NOT ONE PERSON ALIVE NOW may reach it in this life), then Christ died for no purpose and is a joke since we don't need God or Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or salvation - just time and help. "If justification were through keeping the law (never missing the mark - "sin") then Christ died for no purpose."



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

Possible... ok How about this... I will say and believe that it will definitely happen for those who are willing to go all the way with God.

 

[Alithis]

You sin too, Alithis even though you are in denial.

Have never said other wise. Nor have i ever once accused you of doing so.
BUt i assure you i do not continue in the practice of anything i know to be sin.
I dont continue to steal
I dont continue in porn (adultory)
I dont continue in lies
I dont endlessy covet
I dont bare false witness
I dont bow to idols (dont even watch or praise sport or matarialism.. Which is also idolatry.
I dont blasheme god by using his name invain or as a means to a wordly control.
As i learn to obey the holy spirit i find that icannot do such thi.gs..they have ceased out of my life.This is what Jesus came to do ..
The law could not do it.
But Jesus does what the law cant do..he makes us law keepers again. Because he transforms us. Into His own image .
So as we listen and obey the holy Spirit he can never lead us to sin but always out of it.more and more.
Sin is never acceptable and we can never imply it is .its time to repent of doing it. Because Jesus has given us the power to do so.

So as i have said else where thoughwe may mess up.(1john covers this).that by no means excuses us to repetedly mess up ..because that just displays we are fakes and our repentance is feigned ..
We go back and do it again because we have no intent to stop even though jesus has given us the power to.we do it again because we refuse to apply the authority he has given over it.
We do so again because we choose the wide and easier road... Tbe road that leads to destruction .

We dont continue on that road with any expectation except to meet the full fury of the rightous judgment of the one true living
Holy God. Because we refused to repent.

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[Alithis]

Faulty ideology.... God doesn't make junk. Just because man has fallen short of the glory of God, doesn't mean he is incapable of living up to God's standards. So while I agree that Yeshua has filled in the gap, I wouldn't want to leave this post on the part where we are failures, for we can overcome, we can be victorious, and we can be saints who keep His commandments and have the faith of Yeshua. We can ultimately be Holy as He is Holy, and righteous.

Yes it is what our lord and saviour came to do
To reconcile.. Make up the shortfall in our account.
To balance the books
To restore
To reestablish
To redeem
To make new
To make the slave free
To make the unclean ,clean
To make the downtrodden the overcomer
The victem the victorious
The unrightous rightous ..

This is the lord Jesus i know and serve.
He doesnt leave us int he mud of sin.. But brings us out and leads us to green clean pastures ,where we live a new life as a new creation
A whole new style of living. Hegives us anew heart
With his law written on it..
The new man in christ sees evil and shuns it ..hedoes not embrace it excuse it and self justify it.


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[Josiah]

He doesnt leave us int he mud of sin.. But brings us out and leads us to green clean pastures ,where we live a new life as a new creation
A whole new style of living. Hegives us anew heart
With his law written on it..
The new man in christ sees evil and shuns it ..hedoes not embrace it excuse it and self justify it.

Just give the full names of 10 living Christians who are obedient, sinless, all perfect, all holy, all loving, NEVER missing the mark (the meaning of the word "sin") in ANYTHING God commands..... not in nature or attitude or thought or word or deed.... not in things/thoughts/attitudes done or left undone, just list 10. And if you do, you will prove the Bible to be wrong that states, "If you claim to be without sin, you lie and make God a liar" "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." And you make Christ a worthless, irrelevant joke - unnecessary since evidently people don't need no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no savior, no salvation - just HELP and TIME so that they need nothing (the soteriology of Bhakti Hinduism, NOT the soteriology of Christianity).




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