Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Alithis]

You're mixing Justification and Sanctification again.

no ..im quoting direct scripture .. they are never exclusive

 

[TurtleHare]

The demons can quote scripture too but you knew that.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup they can

 

[MoreCoffee]

You're mixing Justification and Sanctification again.

no ..im quoting direct scripture .. they are never exclusive

Where exactly do the holy scriptures make the sharp distinction between being made righteous and being made holy that you're alluding to [MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]?

 

[Josiah]

we know that the scripture is speaking past tense "for all have sinned" -does not say for "all will continue to sin" .

There are currently 2.2 billion Christians in the world, according to you, none of them sin (or they would not be Christians), all of them are obedient. So, it should be easy for you to supply that list I've asked for. Just post the full names of just 10 living persons of these 2.2 billion people who are SINLESS - who never sin - not in thought or word or deed, not in nature, not in what is done and not in what is not done, who are perfect just as God in heaven is perfect (to that extent), who are holy just as God is holy, who love all 7.3 billion people just as and to the same extent that Jesus loved on the Cross, just TEN (that's all I've asked for), just 10 people who obey, who don't continue to sin after becoming a Christian.

I want to meet these sinless, obedient people. Unless you can prove your premise that Scripture is wrong when it says that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one..... that NO ONE is good, only God in heaven..... that NO ONE does what is right..... that Paul erred when he called himself the CHIEF of sinners (because being a Christian, he doesn't continue to sin). Provide that list of folks who don't sin anymore.







Interesting...... Yup, you have a plethora of ways to attack the Gospel, to belittle Christ and His work, to engrandize yourself, to TRY to suggest that the Jewish/Muslim/Hindu soteriology is Christian. Okay.... since you are taking the Catholic view to a radical extreme.... then just provide that list, give us the full names of just ten living people who have been HELPED (not saved) so that they have saved themselves by becoming sinless, obedient, perfect as God is, holy as God is, loving as God is. Those who fulfill the Law, the will of God? Supply the names of those who prove Scripture is wrong when it insists that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one. That NO ONE is good, only God in heaven. That NO ONE does the will of God. That proves Paul erred when he wrote that he is the CHIEF of sinners.

He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

That's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than MAKING US all-perfect, all-holy, all-loving. It's a whole other, entirely different enchildada!!!!!!! Yes, God FORGIVES in Christ, through the Blood of the Lamb..... Yes, God is MERCIFUL to those in Christ...... but that has nothing whatsoever to do with our BEING (or being MADE) perfect, holy, loving so that we don't need Christ or the Cross or the Blood or forgiveness or mercy...... it has NOTHING to do with justification being the result of OUR obedience/perfection/works rather than Christ's.

You need to make up your mind.

People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood.

The RELATIONSHIP is healed, we are not MADE absolutely perfect, holy, loving..... CHRIST changes the relationship, He doesn't MAKE us perfectly obedient, holy, loving so that we don't need Him, we don't need the Cross, we don't need His mercy.

Your whole point in thread after thread is that justification results from OUR BEING obedient, perfect, holy, loving as God is - doing all God wills. THAT is what traditional Protestants have disagreed with, your rather Catholic idea taken to a radical extreme that Catholics would not dare to take it (although More Coffee finds SOMETHING in your view to agree with).

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

You need to make up your mind!

In this thread (and in numerous others) your whole point is that justification results from OUR obedience, OUR works, OUR righteousness, OUR holiness, OUR being MADE worthy....... you often post (long) on the topic of justicfication and not once even MENTION Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy..... just on and on and on and on and on and on about how OBEDIENT you are, how sinless we have to BE, how it depends on OUR righteousness. When any of us so much as MENTION Christ as the Savior, you've come unglued, angry even, shouting about how it's about SELF being such that no mercy is needed cuz self is obedient. You need to make up your mind.

In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Waiting for that list of perfect Christians.....


You DO need to make up your mind....

ouhh well hellooo looky here ..when we have faith ,when we truly have faith, we fulfil the law ..wow how amazing is that ?

I'm waiting for that list of PERFECT Christians who always fulfill the will of God.



SO much of your post reveals your confusion, the MESS you get in because you've so entangled, confused, mixed up sanctification with justification, Law with Gospel, self with Christ.... Every now and then, you seem to accept the Gospel.... but you are obsessed with attacking it, subverting it, denying it, being an enemy of it. I suspect this is simply a result of how entangled you've made things, the MESS that has been presented to you, your lack of distinction between Law and Gospel, self and Christ, mercy and merit, sanctification and justification.




Pax CHRISTI




- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Where exactly do the holy scriptures make the sharp distinction between being made righteous and being made holy that you're alluding to [MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]?

Justification is for our salvation and sanctification is God working within us because we are saved (you know, that by grace through faith so no one can boast piece of scripture).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Justification is for our salvation and sanctification is God working within us because we are saved (you know, that by grace through faith so no one can boast piece of scripture).

The holy scriptures assure the faithful that "without holiness no one shall see God" (Hebrews 12:14)

Seek peace with all people, and the holiness without which no one can ever see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

 

[Lamb]

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

 

[visionary]

Where exactly do the holy scriptures make the sharp distinction between being made righteous and being made holy that you're alluding to [MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]?

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[Josiah]

The holy scriptures assure the faithful that "without holiness no one shall see God" (Hebrews 12:14)

That's LAW.

Of course, you are highly selective with your Law. It also says, "NO ONE is good but God only" (not just not holy but not even good). Scripture says, "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." NO ONE. That likely includes you (and of course, me). Yes, the Law continue.... (without the usual RCC/LDS watering down).... but it cannot justify us ("NO ONE is justified by keeping the law"...... If we could be justified by keeping the law, then Christ died for no purpose). Good thing because NO ONE fulfills the Law.... NO ONE obeys..... NO ONE is even good, much less holy, perfect.

So, how do we stand "holy" before God? Because we are forgiven, because we stand in Christ, because of the Blood of the Lamb. IF it were otherwise (and thus we'd not be Christians), then Christ was a bad joke, a waste of time, His passion all meaningless ... what we needed was divine HELP (as Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism teach - that's THEIR soteriology), but all the help in the universe won't make us fulfill the Law - we need a SAVIOR, we need GOD to come down and SAVE us - horrible sinners that we are. We need MERCY. And Christianity teaches such happened/happens (which is what makes us Christian rather than Islamic, Hindu or modern Judaism).


Now, it may well be that in some mysterious way - in that less than microsecond between death and our entrance into heaven, after our death, God not only forgives but changes us (an informal, unofficial teaching of the EOC in opposition to the very new De Fide Dogma of only the RC Denomination).... I would not deny that as informal, unofficial teaching.... I see it as POSSIBLE..... but that is not our justification (as the EOC also states), it's part of our glorification AFTER death. Another topic for another day and thread, and something for the RCC and EOC to debate.

Like our modern American "Evangelical" friend, you simply are very, very confused..... your Catholic teachers (just like mine) SO confused you by entangling, confusing, blending, mixing up Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God, all to make Christ as small (and unnecessary as possible) and self as BIG and critical as possible, to try to affirm the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu soteriology but make it SOUND at least a little bit Christian by at least mentioning Christ (although few Catholics do in this regard), but even then NOT as our Savior but at most as our HELPER and possibility-maker (thus, affirming the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu soteriology).

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.



Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."



Historically, Christians have spoken of ORIGINAL and ACTUALIZED sin.....

Original: The inclination, the propensity, that DISEASE that means we are self-centered, egotistical, self-serving, rebellious. It's what is in our hearts that LEADS to sins, it is the root of sin. When a man shoots his boss, the "problem" didn't start with the bullet entering the guys' chest, it began with something deep in the heart of the shooter - which LEAD to the chain of things that ultimately meant his pointed his gun and pulled the trigger. If I have a cold, I may sneeze. The sneeze is not the disease, it flows from the disease (which I may have even if I'm not sneezing at that microsecond; even if I take enough pills to never sneeze I still have a cold).

Actualized: These are the symptoms. They may be our thoughts or our words or our deeds. They may be known (observed) or not (even the sinner may not be aware of them). They may be thoughts or words of deeds we SHOULD have had but didn't (being imperfect)... they may be thoughts or words or deeds we should NOT have had but did (being sinful).



There are different kinds of Law in the OT
.....


Moral Law: Governs behaviors and our relationships to God, each other and our environment. This still applies.

Ceremonial Law: Governs all the ceremonial aspects of the Old Covenant such as the building of the Ark, clothes priests are to wear, not eating certain foods, observing certain Old Covenant festivals, etc. This does not apply.

Civil Law: Governs the state affairs of the ancient kingdom of the Jews, the divine mandates to the kings vis-a-vis political and international relations. This ceased when Israel fell in 722 BC and Judea fell in 587 BC.




Thank you.


Pax Christi


- Josiah




.

Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah





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[Lamb]

What I love about Law & Gospel.

What God tells us in the Law to do and not do...

HE THEN PROVIDES in the Gospel to cover us!

Isn't that the most amazing thing?

 

[psalms 91]

God loves us beynd anything we can imagine or comprehend

 

[visionary]

The love in the law is revealed in the reality in Yeshua.

 

[psalms 91]

amen none of it means a thing without love

 

[TurtleHare]

The love in the law is revealed in the reality in Yeshua.

Mhmm, it's God's love that saves us and For God loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Alithis]

What I love about Law & Gospel.

What God tells us in the Law to do and not do...

HE THEN PROVIDES in the Gospel to cover us!

Isn't that the most amazing thing?

It IS amazing..
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Lamb]

Law and Gospel distinction is important for God's children to learn so they don't turn themselves into their own saviors all the while insisting it's Jesus.

 

[visionary]

Gospel is the story of redemption. Details of execution is found in the statutes. Ordinances are the specifics. Yeshua is found in the law and prophets. Yeshua is the epitome of love.

 

[Alithis]

Law and Gospel distinction is important for God's children to learn so they don't turn themselves into their own saviors all the while insisting it's Jesus.

law and good news distinction ? the good news is that jesus came to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law
return us to being at peACE with God
and reconcile us to god so that we can what ....? carry on sinning ? or abide in the righteousness of christ ?
i would like any one to explain how obedience to what GOD has said ..obedience to HIS instruction.. is saving "self" ?

He is the saviour ... if he reached out his hand and says grab hold ... and we respond obediently- and HE saves us .. how is our obedience saving self again..?

oh, it isn't saving self .it being saved by hearing and obeying the instructions of the one saving you .

that's why the scriptures warns about the woeful end of those that do NOT OBEY the GOSPEL(good news). yes- the scripture uses those words side by side .
those who refuse to OBEY the good news those who did not OBEY the good news .

we are not saved by obeying the law
we are saved by obeying god's instructions on how to be saved -ignore him at your peril .

-repent (turn away from sin and TOWARDS god- change you mind .)
-be baptised into the death of Christ (being buried with him by baptism into his death just as scripture state )
-be made alive again in his resurrection by the power of the holy Spirit -made a new creation in Christ JEsus
-receive the holy Ghost (as promised)

if these foundations of obedience have not been laid in your life then whose instructions are some people following ?

 

[Lamb]

law and good news distinction ? the good news is that jesus came to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law
return us to being at peACE with God
and reconcile us to god so that we can what ....? carry on sinning ? or abide in the righteousness of christ ?
i would like any one to explain how obedience to what GOD has said ..obedience to HIS instruction.. is saving "self" ?

He is the saviour ... if he reached out his hand and says grab hold ... and we respond obediently- and HE saves us .. how is our obedience saving self again..?

oh, it isn't saving self .it being saved by hearing and obeying the instructions of the one saving you .

that's why the scriptures warns about the woeful end of those that do NOT OBEY the GOSPEL(good news). yes- the scripture uses those words side by side .
those who refuse to OBEY the good news those who did not OBEY the good news .

we are not saved by obeying the law
we are saved by obeying god's instructions on how to be saved -ignore him at your peril .

-repent (turn away from sin and TOWARDS god- change you mind .)
-be baptised into the death of Christ (being buried with him by baptism into his death just as scripture state )
-be made alive again in his resurrection by the power of the holy Spirit -made a new creation in Christ JEsus
-receive the holy Ghost (as promised)

if these foundations of obedience have not been laid in your life then whose instructions are some people following ?

The good news is that because we cannot fully obey the Law, Jesus died in our place because HE could fully obey it.

No one here condones sinning. Have you seen such a post?