Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

Alithis

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There goes your ENTIRE point that Christians don't sin.






Okay, so you finally admit that at least NON-CHRISTIANS sin (including Christians before they were Christians). But you keep saying that Christians don't sin - but you can't think of even ONE, not even ONE actual example of a sinless Christian, although all Christians are sinless - you just name such a one.






I do. It is. It's just another topic for another day and another thread. Don't hijack this one in an attempt to attack the Gospel, oppose the Gospel, make Christ as small as possible (irrelevant, a joke now) and yourself as BIG as possible (holy, perfect, glorious, wonderful, all - meriting). Your seeming hatred of the Gospel and disspelling of the Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy are disturbing and dangerous.

Of course, Scripture does NOT say "And therefore Christians do not sin." it says "there is NO ONE who is righteous, no not even one" (I think that includes you). SAINT Paul declares that he IS the "chief of SINNERS" (so much the antithesis of you). Scripture does not support your hijack, your effort to denounce the Gospel, your persistence in opposing the Gospel, your point that Christians don't sin and thus don't need Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness - they SHOULD look in the mirror rather than to the Cross because when they look in the mirror, they see perfection, holiness, love. You are wrong.

But mostly, you are confused. Totally, completely confused. Mixing up, entangling, confusing law and gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ..... all in your effort to deny Christ and glorify self, to destroy the Gospel and magnify yourself, to destroy the central teaching of Chrstistianty. NOW, IF - if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if - this thread were about the Law, if it were about sanctification, then you'd have a point. You'd be wrong (because even in sanctification, we are not sinless - just forgiven and empowered) but you'd AT LEAST be addressing the issue (you'd just be wrong) but on this topic (Justification) you are an enemy of the Gospel, you are attacking Christ, you are opposing the Gospel, you are disspelling the central point of Christianity. And you are persistent and insistent in this - no matter what anyone says, you INSIST on attacking the central point of all Christianity in your effort to glorify your own perfection and holiness. It's very disconcerting and dangerous and disturbing. You CANNOT let stand that JESUS is the Savior (in this sense of narrow justification), that Christ is merciful and forgiving - every time someone posts that, you quickly come to attack it - with so much persistence and passion.






This is why you are not Protestant. This is why you reject the Gospel, oppose the Gospel, hate the Gospel...... in your view of justification, self saves self by self being sinless. Good luck with that! But in any case, it's a complete abandonment of Christianity and a return to Judaism (or even more, a move into Islam), and it shows how confused you are, how you have gotten yourself into a mess and essentially left Christianity by entangling law and gospel, self with God, sanctification with justification.... your confusion has lead you to works-righteousness, to you save self by making self perfect so that you have nothing to be saved from. I denounce that with every cell in my body. You make this point over and over and over, in ANY thread that has anything to do with Christ and justification - QUICKLY denouncing Christ as the savior and elevating you to not needing salvation, you need no Christ, no Blood, no Cross, no mercy cuz you got you. Good luck with that. But worse, you are attacking the Gospel, the Christ, the Cross, Christianity.





And who GIVES life? NEVER self. And he didn't say, "And you must become perfect so that you need no salvation and thus my incarnation, my life, my death, my resurrection is just a bad joke and entirely unnecessary."



- Josiah

you make so many false accusations in this post that there is no point replying to it-i have a clear conscience before God in jesus name so i need not defend anything i have said

. i mean good grief ..accusing me of hating the gospel because i agree with scriptures which state we must Obey the gospel ..
i am not protestant .. i was never rcc to protest against it ..i was never lutheran to protest against it .
i am a born again christian a disciple of the lord jesus -i agree WITH the word of god in every aspect of it .

the word of god states we are to OBEY the gospel - .it is you who are protesting against that even though there it is,written plainly in the word of god .

what do you want to hear ? that you can go on singing your secret sin and you will be saved regardless .. ?/ is that what you desire to hear ,you wish to have your ear tickled with sweet words that are nice to the ears of your flesh . you keep saying all christians sin.. but you cant speak for all christians .. so what sin is it that YOU speak of in YOUR own life that you keep doing and dont want to repent of. / i mean come on lets get to the heart of your protestings .
 

TurtleHare

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Oh, Alithis, on the Last Day would you rather be saved by faith or judged by your obedience?
 

Alithis

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Oh, Alithis, on the Last Day would you rather be saved by faith or judged by your obedience?

If there is no obedience there is no faith.
The gospel itself is to be obeyed.
Only the people that don't truly have faith in God would be foolish enough to disobey what he has told us we must do to be saved.

You spout about faith with words but do you act on it or just give it lip service?

You can stand before a swing bridge and profess you your faith in it to hold you up until your face turns blue. But unless you act and walk that bridge.. your words are hot air .if faith is sincere it is acted on .not just professed.
So do you wish to be judged on your profession of faith...or by the actions that proved to God the sincerity of your words.because god is not fooled by those who are hearers but not doers..nor is he fooled by those bushy branches that look good but have no fruit.nor is he fooled by those virgins who have no oil in their lamps,nor by the luke warm,nor by those who work iniquity...being those who keep sinning after he so graciously set them free.

i refuse to love God with empty words..i will show him i love him by obeying him who laid down his life for me. He proved his love ..not by what he said.. but by what he has done.
.
 

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You aren't talking about Justification but Sanctification. That isn't the topic.
 

Josiah

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You aren't talking about Justification but Sanctification. That isn't the topic.


Bingo. Folks blend, confuse, entangle the two in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as large as possible..... to make justification a matter of what WE do rather than what CHRIST did, thus to make self the Savior, self the one to thank and glorify.

And notice, rather than just affirming the opening post, some immediately are angered by the very though of proclaiming Jesus as the Savior! They WILL NOT let that stand, they've got to attack it, deny it or at least limit it and water it down SO much as to make that point largely irrelevant. These are enemies of the Gospel.



Pax Christi


- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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Bingo. Folks blend, confuse, entangle the two in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as large as possible..... to make justification a matter of what WE do rather than what CHRIST did, thus to make self the Savior, self the one to thank and glorify.

And notice, rather than just affirming the opening post, some immediately are angered by the very though of proclaiming Jesus as the Savior! They WILL NOT let that stand, they've got to attack it, deny it or at least limit it and water it down SO much as to make that point largely irrelevant. These are enemies of the Gospel.



Pax Christi


- Josiah
Christ is the saviour, I dont think thta has ever been called into question
 

TurtleHare

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Christ is the saviour, I dont think thta has ever been called into question

Anytime any of y'all state that you gotta do something for your salvation, that's when it's questioning Christ as the Savior.
 

TurtleHare

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If there is no obedience there is no faith.
The gospel itself is to be obeyed.
Only the people that don't truly have faith in God would be foolish enough to disobey what he has told us we must do to be saved.

You spout about faith with words but do you act on it or just give it lip service?

You can stand before a swing bridge and profess you your faith in it to hold you up until your face turns blue. But unless you act and walk that bridge.. your words are hot air .if faith is sincere it is acted on .not just professed.
So do you wish to be judged on your profession of faith...or by the actions that proved to God the sincerity of your words.because god is not fooled by those who are hearers but not doers..nor is he fooled by those bushy branches that look good but have no fruit.nor is he fooled by those virgins who have no oil in their lamps,nor by the luke warm,nor by those who work iniquity...being those who keep sinning after he so graciously set them free.

i refuse to love God with empty words..i will show him i love him by obeying him who laid down his life for me. He proved his love ..not by what he said.. but by what he has done.
.

I'd rather be judged by faith and all I gotta do is point to Jesus the Christ for my eternal life cuz if I say LORD LORD look at what I've done for you, it's not the same as by faith living my life and not realizing the LORD LORD when I did I DO those things for you because by faith I trust that God works through me. Whereas you trust in you.
 

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Bingo. Folks blend, confuse, entangle the two in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as large as possible..... to make justification a matter of what WE do rather than what CHRIST did, thus to make self the Savior, self the one to thank and glorify.

And notice, rather than just affirming the opening post, some immediately are angered by the very though of proclaiming Jesus as the Savior! They WILL NOT let that stand, they've got to attack it, deny it or at least limit it and water it down SO much as to make that point largely irrelevant. These are enemies of the Gospel.



Pax Christi


- Josiah

The Gospel is a promise. It comes from God to us. People tend to want to turn that promise into something we do back to Him. But that would not make it "free" would it? Or a gift? Or from God.
 

Alithis

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You aren't talking about Justification but Sanctification. That isn't the topic.

Bingo. Folks blend, confuse, entangle the two in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as large as possible..... to make justification a matter of what WE do rather than what CHRIST did, thus to make self the Savior, self the one to thank and glorify.

And notice, rather than just affirming the opening post, some immediately are angered by the very though of proclaiming Jesus as the Savior! They WILL NOT let that stand, they've got to attack it, deny it or at least limit it and water it down SO much as to make that point largely irrelevant. These are enemies of the Gospel.



Pax Christi


- Josiah

yeah i'm responding to questions and statements made to and against me and your not liking what is being said so you're doing the usual tactic .
yet at no time are you willing to deal with the sin ..you just want to keep doing it and you think you will be justified by faith if you do ..

if you have faith in god then you will have faith in ALL he has said ,not just the bits you like .you will have faith that he has said to repent .. not continue in sin.and you will act on that to display you really do have faith .
you will have faith that he has set us free and so you don't have to do that sin any more ..and you will prove you have faith and you will prove your love for him by not doing that sin anymore ..and displaying that you actually HAVE faith in him ,your actions shall prove it and by that proven sincere faith you will be justified .

but you are not justified by this phony faith that says oh well he died to set me free from sin but it didn't really happen so i HAVE to keep sinning .. that's not faith it is absolute contradiction of faith .
your in self deception because the only reason you continue to do that sin which you know to be sin..is because you love doing it and you lobe it more then you love the lord JEsus .

get real and repent
 

Alithis

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The Gospel is a promise. It comes from God to us. People tend to want to turn that promise into something we do back to Him. But that would not make it "free" would it? Or a gift? Or from God.

it is a gift of a message with clear instructions that are to be obeyed - others here asked me to post the verses that say so.. i was shocked they know so little of the scriptures that they had to ask .
there is a great judgment waiting for those who refuse to obey the gospel .
 

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You must have a different gospel because the Gospel is the Good News that Jesus died for us and now our sins are forgiven and yet you keep adding law back into there which isn't the Gospel. So why do you do it? Is it because you're afraid to totally trust that your sins are forgiven and you don't want to let God know so you try to stick it back to him and say he told you to do this and this and this or you won't be saved? But that's Law and the Gospel isn't law. The Gospel is a promise given to us and to obey is to believe. Why do you make it out to be much more than that? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Do you think you're getting further along than anyone else or more self-righteous because you think you're doing something? I'll stick with Jesus and you can go ahead and keep thinking that you're saving yourself but really you should turn to Jesus who forgives you.
 

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it is a gift of a message with clear instructions that are to be obeyed - others here asked me to post the verses that say so.. i was shocked they know so little of the scriptures that they had to ask .
there is a great judgment waiting for those who refuse to obey the gospel .

The Gospel is God saving us by the Savior. You aren't the Savior.
 

Alithis

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You must have a different gospel because the Gospel is the Good News that Jesus died for us and now our sins are forgiven and yet you keep adding law back into there which isn't the Gospel. So why do you do it? Is it because you're afraid to totally trust that your sins are forgiven and you don't want to let God know so you try to stick it back to him and say he told you to do this and this and this or you won't be saved? But that's Law and the Gospel isn't law. The Gospel is a promise given to us and to obey is to believe. Why do you make it out to be much more than that? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Do you think you're getting further along than anyone else or more self-righteous because you think you're doing something? I'll stick with Jesus and you can go ahead and keep thinking that you're saving yourself but really you should turn to Jesus who forgives you.

guess you don't know the bible either huh ?
 

Alithis

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The Gospel is God saving us by the Savior. You aren't the Savior.

never ever once even implied i was ..
the gospel(good news) is a message gifted to us ..it is a message which contains instructions .. if we don't do the instructions, that is merely evidence that we do not believe the message .we don't have faith in the word of god
 

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The Gospel is a promise given to us. We believe it. We don't have to contribute anything else to earn that promise given to us.

Think of it in this way.

You are a father. Your children have done nothing to earn their right to be your children. Their choosing to obey your commands does not make them your children because they already are. But they can choose to reject you and leave you.
 

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Yes, a gift that we dont earn but once saved there are commandment s to be followed
 

Alithis

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The Gospel is a promise given to us. We believe it. We don't have to contribute anything else to earn that promise given to us.

Think of it in this way.

You are a father. Your children have done nothing to earn their right to be your children. Their choosing to obey your commands does not make them your children because they already are. But they can choose to reject you and leave you.

We dont earn the promise.. But the promise comes with instructions .disobey the instructions and you will never enter into the promise. It takes faith and trust to obey the instruction.

Want to be free from your sin and stop the mad merrygo round of ..sin .say sorry,sin,say sorry,sin ,say sorry...
The show your faith in Jesus and Do as he has instructed and you will not just know about the freedom..but begin to walk in it.
 

Alithis

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You must have a different gospel because the Gospel is the Good News that Jesus died for us and now our sins are forgiven and yet you keep adding law back into there which isn't the Gospel. So why do you do it? Is it because you're afraid to totally trust that your sins are forgiven and you don't want to let God know so you try to stick it back to him and say he told you to do this and this and this or you won't be saved? But that's Law and the Gospel isn't law. The Gospel is a promise given to us and to obey is to believe. Why do you make it out to be much more than that? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Do you think you're getting further along than anyone else or more self-righteous because you think you're doing something? I'll stick with Jesus and you can go ahead and keep thinking that you're saving yourself but really you should turn to Jesus who forgives you.

To be straight... Your talking waffle.
I have never ever said or even implied im saving myself .what a load of hotair.
 

Josiah

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We dont earn the promise.. But the promise comes with instructions .disobey the instructions and you will never enter into the promise. It takes faith and trust to obey the instruction.


You make justification purely a matter of LAW, purely a matter of YOU..... YOU just obey the instructions. So, Jesus has nothing to do with anything (His Cross, His Blood, His resurrection a meaningless, worthless joke since it ultimately ALL depends on YOU obeying the instructions.... you oppose the Gospel SO MUCH you've entirely eliminate itf).


Okay. The instructions are to be PERFECT exactly as and to the same extent that God in heaven is perfect. The instructions are to be HOLY exactly as and to the same extent that God in heaven is HOLY. The instructions are to LOVE all people living on the planet with the same love and to the same extent that Jesus loved us on the Cross. The instructions are to love the Lord with ALL (100%) your heart and soul and mind - all the time, every microsecond. The instructions are to make disciples of ALL people living on the planet. So, are you? Do you perform the instructions? How's it working for you? All your effort to make yourself so very, very BIG..... all your efforts to make Christ so very, very small? All your efforts to make everything about you and nothing about Christ, to make it all about the one you see in the mirror rather than the one hanging on the Cross?

What you are proclaiming is just the justification of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism (minus what little mercy those hold you - yours being PURE law) - with the word "Jesus" thrown in for no reason, you are simply TRYING to "Christianize" the justification theology of the Pharisees, of Islam, of Hinduism. But it's insulting to Christ, it undermines the very core and foundation of Christianity, and is an offense to the Gospel. No matter what the thread, you seem PASSIONATE to denounce the Gospel, belittle Christ (often to nothing at all), and glorify yourself and how perfect you are, making the Gospel unnecessary in the case of you yourself.

And you CONTINUE to show your complete confusion of Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God..... how you have so confused, entangled, mixed up these things with one purpose: to oppose Christ and engrandize yourself, to make the effectual point YOU and all YOU do (while lacking the humility to admit that YOU - in realize - do NOT obey, thus you condemn yourself by your own horrible theology).




Pax Christi



- Josiah




.
 
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