Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[psalms 91]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is a "you must" command is it n

sure is

 

[popsthebuilder]

Do you love your neighbor as yourself every moment of your life? I really doubt anyone here can do that. That's knowingly and willingly sinning yet we're still Christians because we rely on the Savior.

General assumption based on one's own experience. Indeed, I love all at least equally as much as i love myself. It is simple when one has been betrayed by themself at all crossroads until the light of GOD was imparted, by His will, and ones simple hope and admission of ones own lack of power to change the things that bring death in any form. My case is a peculiar one perhaps. I have hated myself for a long time and have always been empathetic. The grace of GOD and the Word of GOD indeed help to solidify an ease of mind and withdrawal from contempt. I anger still at times, but can literally safely say that I generally love all life as much as myself at least. So; though I am not without sin and indeed rely fervently on the Lord to guide me and walk with me; that command is not usually a problem. I fight my own demons, that just isn't usually one of them.

Peace

Do you love your neighbor as yourself every moment of your life? I really doubt anyone here can do that. That's knowingly and willingly sinning yet we're still Christians because we rely on the Savior.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

again right

Make up your mind, Bill

 

[Josiah]

Who is the one who justifies is the great question to be asked and Josiah is on the right path when he keeps pointing everyone back to the Savior instead of self.

... and as we witness, some feel compelled to make self as big as possible and Christ as small as possible, to make that mirror-looking more seemly. But, IMO, simply HONESTY makes it absurd. If one wants to claim self as the Savior.... wants to claim the LAW as the instrument, then - yes - it is simple. Either that one is PERFECT just as GOD HIMSELF IN HEAVEN is perfect (from conception to death), HOLY exactly as God in heaven is holy (from conception to death), ALWAYS doing ALL that God wills in thought, word and deed (meaning for example loving all people to the same extent that Christ did on the Cross..... making disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc., etc., etc.) or they are not. Good luck with that! But what they do is not only make God as small as possible but also the Law as small as possible.... with self as BIG as they can, hoping maybe they'll met. They won't. Such is the folly of most world religions and their attempt to "Christianize" the soteriology of other religions. Christianity looks to CHRIST..... Christianity proclaims CHRIST as THE Savior..... Christianity calls on all to rely on CHRIST - HIS works, HIS obedience, HIS rightiousness, HIS love, HIS Cross, HIS Blood, HIS resurrection, HIS heart, HIS mercy. "If justification were by keeping the law then Christ died in vain." IF we could save ourselves, we need no Savior - which is that those folks hardly mention Him or the Cross or the Blood or Mercy (just self).

 

[visionary]

Our works in His name is His justification.

 

[Lamb]

If we say "I'm going to go out and do some good works today because it will make me special in God's eyes and I'll get to heaven", do you still consider those "good" since they were trying to gain something?

 

[psalms 91]

No, then it is for us and not Him

 

[Alithis]

If we say "I'm going to go out and do some good works today because it will make me special in God's eyes and I'll get to heaven", do you still consider those "good" since they were trying to gain something?

are you though ?
once saved we are brought into the works HE has for us to do.. that means we listen to HIm and do what he tells us to do . not run around doing whatever we think may appease him because we haven't done what he told us to do -those are not god works ,those are world of guilt and iniquity .those are the works of which he says "depart from me i do not KNow you ". those are the works your speaking of- ..works that attempt to make up the shortfall of disobedience in a person's life . and the disobedience they are trying to make up for is sin . it won't mean a hill of beans how many timers they chant grace grace ..because if they have truly tasted the grace of God they will have ceased from that sin and begun obeying the holy spirit .

we are saved for a purpose we must remain obedient to the purpose

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

we are saved to abide in christ .. so we must abide in christ
we are saved from one master that we may now obey the master of life .

the gospel itself is a message with an instruction that must be obeyed
obedience is not on auto pilot .

if we return to being disobedient we must turn away from god to do so ..
just can't have it both ways . though many seem to think they can . they are WRONG .

 

[Josiah]

once saved we are brought into the works HE has for us to do.

... and by your PERSISTENT insistence on MIXING that with justification (the singular, sole, only issue of this thread), you have no other purpose and result than to state the justification is - at least partly - a result of what WE do, making SELF the Savior and Jesus a joke.


Again, yet again, still one more time.... NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH denies that the Law still applies and that Christians are STILL called to absolute, total moral perfection with NO sinful nature, thoughts, words, actions or conditions from conception till death - PERFECT just as God is, all the time.... HOLY just as God is, all the time..... ALWAYS loving perfectly just as and to the same extent that Jesus loves us...... ALWAYS making disiciples of all 7.3 billion people.... YES, YES, YES - no one denies - YES, Christians are called to such things. A nice topic, just not this one. You parroting the RCC and LDS by trying so very hard, so very presistently, to confuse Law and Gospel, self and Christ, sanctification with justification.... you seem to do it for the same reason Catholics, Mormons and some modern American "Evangelicals" do - to make self as large as possible and Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, to make SELF the Savior and Jesus just a helper or possibility-maker, to look in the mirror rather than to the Cross. Your persistent opposition to the Gospel, hatred of the Gospel, passion to take the focus off Christ and on to YOU (YOUR obedience, YOUR perfection, YOUR holiness, YOUR steadfastness, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU), your opposition to the Gospel that JESUS is THE Savior (and thus not you - not at all, not a bit, not now, not ever), your persistent denounciation of the Gospel, is what concerns me and so many of the traditional Protestants here.




- Josiah





.

 

[Lamb]

are you though ?
once saved we are brought into the works HE has for us to do.. that means we listen to HIm and do what he tells us to do . not run around doing whatever we think may appease him because we haven't done what he told us to do -those are not god works ,those are world of guilt and iniquity .those are the works of which he says "depart from me i do not KNow you ". those are the works your speaking of- ..works that attempt to make up the shortfall of disobedience in a person's life . and the disobedience they are trying to make up for is sin . it won't mean a hill of beans how many timers they chant grace grace ..because if they have truly tasted the grace of God they will have ceased from that sin and begun obeying the holy spirit .

we are saved for a purpose we must remain obedient to the purpose

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

we are saved to abide in christ .. so we must abide in christ
we are saved from one master that we may now obey the master of life .

the gospel itself is a message with an instruction that must be obeyed
obedience is not on auto pilot .

if we return to being disobedient we must turn away from god to do so ..
just can't have it both ways . though many seem to think they can . they are WRONG .

The Gospel isn't what WE do.

 

[TurtleHare]

are you though ?
once saved we are brought into the works HE has for us to do.. that means we listen to HIm and do what he tells us to do . not run around doing whatever we think may appease him because we haven't done what he told us to do -those are not god works ,those are world of guilt and iniquity .those are the works of which he says "depart from me i do not KNow you ". those are the works your speaking of- ..works that attempt to make up the shortfall of disobedience in a person's life . and the disobedience they are trying to make up for is sin . it won't mean a hill of beans how many timers they chant grace grace ..because if they have truly tasted the grace of God they will have ceased from that sin and begun obeying the holy spirit .

we are saved for a purpose we must remain obedient to the purpose

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

we are saved to abide in christ .. so we must abide in christ
we are saved from one master that we may now obey the master of life .

the gospel itself is a message with an instruction that must be obeyed
obedience is not on auto pilot .

if we return to being disobedient we must turn away from god to do so ..
just can't have it both ways . though many seem to think they can . they are WRONG .

You are so right that we are saved for a purpose and need to be obedient but didn't visionary state in some other thread that our obedience is to remain in faith and isn't that truly what God wants for us to have faith and not reject him?

 

[Alithis]

Faithis displayed by our obedience.we obey christ because we have faith in christ.
If we claim to have faith but do not prove it by our obedience... Its just lipservice.

 

[Alithis]

The amazing thing is,,God ,in christ Jesus gives us the POWER to walk in obedience by faith. But some dont yet believe it. And they miss out on entering INTO the promise.

 

[Josiah]

The amazing thing is,,God ,in christ Jesus gives us the POWER to walk in obedience by faith. But some dont yet believe it. And they miss out on entering INTO the promise.

I don't dispute that in SANCTIFICATION (another issue for another day and thread, I think it's a rule violation to hijack a thread) THOSE JUSTIFIED (the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue of this thread) have divine power. Nice. If you want to discuss that, start a thread on that. But of course, unless and until you can list for us several living human beings who are morally PERFECT just as God in heaven is morally perfect.... who are HOLY exactly as God in heaven is holy..... who are RIGHTIOUS always, from the microsecond of conception through that of death..... who NEVER have a sinful nature, sinful thought or word or deed, who NEVER leave anything undone that should be done, who LOVE all PERFECTLY just as and to the same extend that Jesus loves - constantly, all 7.3 billion, who are "obedient" then I think your point is wrong. And your INSISTENCE on denying the Gospel, opposing the Gospel, refocusing justification from Christ to you, making yourself ever so BIG and Christ ever so small and irrelevant (and you do it in every thread you can)..... that disturbs me.




- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

I don't dispute that in SANCTIFICATION (another issue for another day and thread, I think it's a rule violation to hijack a thread) THOSE JUSTIFIED (the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue of this thread) have divine power. Nice. If you want to discuss that, start a thread on that. But of course, unless and until you can list for us several living human beings who are morally PERFECT just as God in heaven is morally perfect.... who are HOLY exactly as God in heaven is holy..... who are RIGHTIOUS always, from the microsecond of conception through that of death..... who NEVER have a sinful nature, sinful thought or word or deed, who NEVER leave anything undone that should be done, who LOVE all PERFECTLY just as and to the same extend that Jesus loves - constantly, all 7.3 billion, who are "obedient" then I think your point is wrong. And your INSISTENCE on denying the Gospel, opposing the Gospel, refocusing justification from Christ to you, making yourself ever so BIG and Christ ever so small and irrelevant (and you do it in every thread you can)..... that disturbs me.




- Josiah

This is quite a typical response.
Its inaccurate in its accusations.the lord knows that.
If you dont want a reply..dont ask a question.
If you dont want any post challanged and tested ..dont post it.
You ask if i can make a list of people who have never sinned.
You asked.
As elsewhere,i said no. Because all have sinned.. But when we are born again of god we are then made a new creature in christ.
Do you believe this?
It is scripture.

Those who have been buried into the death of the lord Jesus..are then born forth from those waters anew .there is at that time no past sin that can be held to thier account. They rise up into the resurection of jesus a new creation.. A sinless creation.. Can they then go and commit a sin .yes.
Do they have to as if some force beyond thier control forces them to..,No..not any more.they are free from that master now.
Now they must learn to walk worthy of that which has been done for them.
There is no self achievement in ANY of it. Every aspect of it has been made available by christ. He alone has the glory as he alone has made it possible for us to walk in rightousness .that is what he came to do.

When we truly believe what he has done for us it changes us. We are not sinners that are saved.. We are new creatures in christ jesus .that old man died in christs death.
If not..then we have not yet neen saved.
Jesus said we must be born again.



Gm

 

[Lamb]

We are new creations yes...but we are still in sinful bodies. Scripture agrees with both.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup we all sin although i see his point at the very moment we accept Christ and are forgiven at that one moment we are sinless but being human we sinalmost right away with doubt or fear or so many other things

 

[Josiah]

You ask if i can make a list of people who have never sinned.
You asked.
As elsewhere,i said no.

There goes your ENTIRE point that Christians don't sin.

all have sinned.

Okay, so you finally admit that at least NON-CHRISTIANS sin (including Christians before they were Christians). But you keep saying that Christians don't sin - but you can't think of even ONE, not even ONE actual example of a sinless Christian, although all Christians are sinless - you just name such a one.

when we are born again of god we are then made a new creature in christ.
Do you believe this?
It is scripture.

I do. It is. It's just another topic for another day and another thread. Don't hijack this one in an attempt to attack the Gospel, oppose the Gospel, make Christ as small as possible (irrelevant, a joke now) and yourself as BIG as possible (holy, perfect, glorious, wonderful, all - meriting). Your seeming hatred of the Gospel and disspelling of the Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy are disturbing and dangerous.

Of course, Scripture does NOT say "And therefore Christians do not sin." it says "there is NO ONE who is righteous, no not even one" (I think that includes you). SAINT Paul declares that he IS the "chief of SINNERS" (so much the antithesis of you). Scripture does not support your hijack, your effort to denounce the Gospel, your persistence in opposing the Gospel, your point that Christians don't sin and thus don't need Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness - they SHOULD look in the mirror rather than to the Cross because when they look in the mirror, they see perfection, holiness, love. You are wrong.

But mostly, you are confused. Totally, completely confused. Mixing up, entangling, confusing law and gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ..... all in your effort to deny Christ and glorify self, to destroy the Gospel and magnify yourself, to destroy the central teaching of Chrstistianty. NOW, IF - if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if - this thread were about the Law, if it were about sanctification, then you'd have a point. You'd be wrong (because even in sanctification, we are not sinless - just forgiven and empowered) but you'd AT LEAST be addressing the issue (you'd just be wrong) but on this topic (Justification) you are an enemy of the Gospel, you are attacking Christ, you are opposing the Gospel, you are disspelling the central point of Christianity. And you are persistent and insistent in this - no matter what anyone says, you INSIST on attacking the central point of all Christianity in your effort to glorify your own perfection and holiness. It's very disconcerting and dangerous and disturbing. You CANNOT let stand that JESUS is the Savior (in this sense of narrow justification), that Christ is merciful and forgiving - every time someone posts that, you quickly come to attack it - with so much persistence and passion.

If not..then we have not yet neen saved

This is why you are not Protestant. This is why you reject the Gospel, oppose the Gospel, hate the Gospel...... in your view of justification, self saves self by self being sinless. Good luck with that! But in any case, it's a complete abandonment of Christianity and a return to Judaism (or even more, a move into Islam), and it shows how confused you are, how you have gotten yourself into a mess and essentially left Christianity by entangling law and gospel, self with God, sanctification with justification.... your confusion has lead you to works-righteousness, to you save self by making self perfect so that you have nothing to be saved from. I denounce that with every cell in my body. You make this point over and over and over, in ANY thread that has anything to do with Christ and justification - QUICKLY denouncing Christ as the savior and elevating you to not needing salvation, you need no Christ, no Blood, no Cross, no mercy cuz you got you. Good luck with that. But worse, you are attacking the Gospel, the Christ, the Cross, Christianity.

Jesus said we must be born again

And who GIVES life? NEVER self. And he didn't say, "And you must become perfect so that you need no salvation and thus my incarnation, my life, my death, my resurrection is just a bad joke and entirely unnecessary."



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

144,000 without guile.

 

[Alithis]

We are new creations yes...but we are still in sinful bodies. Scripture agrees with both.

yes and we must choose daily which nature we serve .. and since we have been given the power to overcome the nature of the flesh now made dead in christ by faith . we have absolutely NO excuse for willful sin .