Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[MoreCoffee]

What burdens? What's all this talk about rejecting the gospel? Is your post intended to impugn the faith of others?

 

[psalms 91]

seems like it and of course lets have the narrow view that excludes all the rest of the gospel. Christ paid the price for our sins yes and once we accept that forgiveness then we are commanded to do some things, disobedience is sin and rebellion, do you really think that God is going to allow that in heaven again

 

[Josiah]

What burdens?

He who insists he has no sins has no burdens. He who needs no mercy, needs no Christ, needs no Blood, needs nothing but a little help from his friends has no burdens, I suppose. Not when self has self.


But here's the deal..... I don't think anyone can be so dishonest... I don't think anyone can fool themselves so completely, perpetually.... as to honestly believe in such goody-goodyness in self, such perfection, such obedience and righteousness and love in self. To believe self don't need no Cross cuz self has self. Eventually, one has to embrace reincarnation or some other ploy in order to evade the unavoidable reality: self ain't perfect (even WITH help). What a burden.... looking in the mirror at a FLAWED self. I mean, how long can one keep up the illusion needed to beleive self saves self?

There IS an amazing, deep, profound joy and relief that comes from accepting rather than denouncing the Gospel..... in looking to the Cross rather than at self.... in claiming CHRIST'S love and righteousness and obedience rather than trying to keep up the lie about how goody goody I am.... in being LOVED, embraced, forgiven.... all things I deeply, deeply came to appreciate when I found such after leaving Catholicism. I AM His child.... I AM in His mercy.....

And yes, the burden of self saving self removed.... accepting rather than rejecting the Gospel, the Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy..... that makes me far MORE willing and able now - as a Christian - to love and to live for others (no longer mandated to keep up the lie of my superiority, my wonderfulness, my worthiness, and how better I am that most). The never-satisfied, never-ending game and lie IS a burden. The Christ, the Savior, the Gospel, the Cross, the Blood, mercy - they are what removes that horrible burden, that lie. But Christ has to be large and self small..... Christ has to be the Savior, not me. Sanctification (our lives AS CHRISTIANS) becomes possible when we are Christians, when the Cross is embraced.



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Christ paid the price for our sins yes

Then why the constant rejection of the Gospel, your defense of the Catholic view that self saves self by what self does (albeit, perhaps, with help)? Why reject the Protestant view that JESUS is the Savior - not self? Make up your mind, friend. Which is it? Who is the Savior? Christ or you?

once we accept that forgiveness then we are commanded to do some things

Another topic for another day and thread (hijacking being a rule violation), but YES - CHRISTIANS (that would be people who are justified or they would not be Christians, they would be pagans), yes CHRISTIANS are called to absolute moral PERFECTION, to be PERFECT exactly as God is, to be HOLY exactly as God is, to be all-loving to all exactly to the extent that Christ did on the Cross.... yes, Protestants aren't watering down the law, aren't deleting the law - we just aren't displacing the Gospel with it, not confusing the gospel with it, not using it to make the Gospel irrelevant. "If salvation came through our obedience, then Christ died for no purpose." By you insisting the justification (narrow) mandates OUR perfection, our holiness, our obedience, you simply have diminished Christ to complete irrelevance, a joke.... and you've made the effectual cause of our justification YOURSELF.... you as the Savior.... NOT the Cross, NOT the Blood, NOT Christ's life and death and resurrection.... but YOU, YOUR obedience, YOUR achievements, YOUR merits, YOUR accomplishments.


Sure, of course, as said over and over and over again, IF we were permitted to hijack threads, IF we wanted to start a different thread on a different topic - what CHRISTIANS are called to do..... then yes, it becomes synergistic.... WE DO THINGS EMPOWERED BY GOD. But that's a different subject, it's not how one BECOMES a Christian (saved or born again or justified) but how one lives AS A CHRISTIAN - a different topic for a different day. Yes, Christians must be PERFECT.... they must be HOLY..... they must perfectly and absolutely and universally love.... they must make disciples of all living human beings on the planet... sure, NO ONE is denying that or suggesting otherwise. But classical Protestants would argue THAT is not what brings about justification (narrow) - the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue of this thread. Those progressive (not fully realized) things FLOW from that, not CAUSE that. As has been said - but attacked by a few "Evangelicals" and of course Catholics.

The reason why Catholics, Mormons and some modern American "Evangelicals" NEED to muddy the waters, confuse things, entangle different issues, mix up people, is in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible.... to diminish Christ to nothing more than a HELPER or ENABLER or POSSIBILITY MAKER, and to make self ultimately the effectual savior of self who ultimately EARNS and MERITS all he gets so that Christ is irrelevant, no mercy is needed, no Cross is needed, no Blood is needed cuz self has self. You have been both promoting and defending that entangling and confusing.


Yes... I DO think that those who are not absolutely perfect, who ARE disobedient will enter heaven.... otherwise, in the Christless, Crossless world you insist upon, there ARE no perfect people, according to the Bible there is NO ONE who does good, no not even one... there is NO ONE who is righteous, no not even one. So in your Gospel-less, Christ-less, Cross-less theology where justfication is something WE achieve as we do all God calls, then yes - no one will be going to heaven. Christ was in vain. But if you accept rather than rebuke the Gospel, yes - sinners will be accepted (even St. Paul who refers to himself as the CHIEF of sinners). Why? Because if you'd accept the Gospel, if you'd accept that Christ is the Savior rather than yourself, if you'd look to the Cross rather than in the Mirror - you'll find justification, mercy, forgiveness, the Cross, the Blood.... Jesus. And THEN...... THEN..... justified (narrow).... accepting rather than opposing the Gospel, you'll even find motivation and strength to GROW in love and righteousness and obedience, but these things flow FROM justification (narrow) rather than CAUSE it ... WE are not the Savior of self - that's what Muslims believe, that's what Jews believe, that's what some Hindus believe. Friend - look to the Cross! Accept Jesus as your Savior! Beware of the Catholic opposition you are parroting and defending.




- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Then why the constant rejection of the Gospel, your defense of the Catholic view that self saves self by what self does (albeit, perhaps, with help)? Why reject the Protestant view that JESUS is the Savior - not self? Make up your mind, friend. Which is it? Who is the Savior? Christ or you?





Another topic for another day and thread (hijacking being a rule violation), but YES - CHRISTIANS (that would be people who are justified or they would not be Christians, they would be pagans), yes CHRISTIANS are called to absolute moral PERFECTION, to be PERFECT exactly as God is, to be HOLY exactly as God is, to be all-loving to all exactly to the extent that Christ did on the Cross.... yes, Protestants aren't watering down the law, aren't deleting the law - we just aren't displacing the Gospel with it, not confusing the gospel with it, not using it to make the Gospel irrelevant. "If salvation came through our obedience, then Christ died for no purpose." By you insisting the justification (narrow) mandates OUR perfection, our holiness, our obedience, you simply have diminished Christ to complete irrelevance, a joke.... and you've made the effectual cause of our justification YOURSELF.... you as the Savior.... NOT the Cross, NOT the Blood, NOT Christ's life and death and resurrection.... but YOU, YOUR obedience, YOUR achievements, YOUR merits, YOUR accomplishments.


Sure, of course, as said over and over and over again, IF we were permitted to hijack threads, IF we wanted to start a different thread on a different topic - what CHRISTIANS are called to do..... then yes, it becomes synergistic.... WE DO THINGS EMPOWERED BY GOD. But that's a different subject, it's not how one BECOMES a Christian (saved or born again or justified) but how one lives AS A CHRISTIAN - a different topic for a different day. Yes, Christians must be PERFECT.... they must be HOLY..... they must perfectly and absolutely and universally love.... they must make disciples of all living human beings on the planet... sure, NO ONE is denying that or suggesting otherwise. But classical Protestants would argue THAT is not what brings about justification (narrow) - the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue of this thread. Those progressive (not fully realized) things FLOW from that, not CAUSE that. As has been said - but attacked by a few "Evangelicals" and of course Catholics.

The reason why Catholics, Mormons and some modern American "Evangelicals" NEED to muddy the waters, confuse things, entangle different issues, mix up people, is in order to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible.... to diminish Christ to nothing more than a HELPER or ENABLER or POSSIBILITY MAKER, and to make self ultimately the effectual savior of self who ultimately EARNS and MERITS all he gets so that Christ is irrelevant, no mercy is needed, no Cross is needed, no Blood is needed cuz self has self. You have been both promoting and defending that entangling and confusing.


Yes... I DO think that those who are not absolutely perfect, who ARE disobedient will enter heaven.... otherwise, in the Christless, Crossless world you insist upon, there ARE no perfect people, according to the Bible there is NO ONE who does good, no not even one... there is NO ONE who is righteous, no not even one. So in your Gospel-less, Christ-less, Cross-less theology where justfication is something WE achieve as we do all God calls, then yes - no one will be going to heaven. Christ was in vain. But if you accept rather than rebuke the Gospel, yes - sinners will be accepted (even St. Paul who refers to himself as the CHIEF of sinners). Why? Because if you'd accept the Gospel, if you'd accept that Christ is the Savior rather than yourself, if you'd look to the Cross rather than in the Mirror - you'll find justification, mercy, forgiveness, the Cross, the Blood.... Jesus. And THEN...... THEN..... justified (narrow).... accepting rather than opposing the Gospel, you'll even find motivation and strength to GROW in love and righteousness and obedience, but these things flow FROM justification (narrow) rather than CAUSE it ... WE are not the Savior of self - that's what Muslims believe, that's what Jews believe, that's what some Hindus believe. Friend - look to the Cross! Accept Jesus as your Savior! Beware of the Catholic opposition you are parroting and defending.




- Josiah

No I refuse ot seperate the two we are saved by Christ, not self nor have I ever said that, once saved then there are things that we are commanded to do and to say that we dont habve todo anything is a lie, a dangerous one at that. I hope that people will quit trying to make me say something thta I never sdid, I dont like it and will put some more on ignore if it continues. Get real and quit trying to spin fairy tales

 

[Josiah]

No I refuse ot seperate the two we are saved by Christ, not self. once saved then there are things that we are commanded to do

Yup, two different things.

When you now ACCEPT the Gospel rather than are offended by it... when you ACCEPT that Christ is the Savior (rather than argue against that)... when you insist that SELF is not the Savior of self - not now, not ever.... not wholly, not partly.... not at all.... not ever - then you AGREE with me and with classical Protestantism.

Yes, as has been noted to you over and over and over and over again, sure - IF we were permitted to hijack threads here.... IF you wanted to start a different thread on a different topic (say, what CHRISTIANS are to do once justified in this sense), yup... as I've posted many times to you.... yes, we must be perfect, we must be holy, we must be loving EXACTLY as and to the EXTENT that God is. It's called "Sanctification" (narrow).... and it's a different topic for a different day and thread.

When people INSIST on confusing the two.... mixing them up..... entangling them.... confusing people.... blending them TOGETHER.... they do so to diminish Christ, to enlarge and engrandize self, to suggest that self justifies self by what self does (perhaps "enabled" or "helped" by God - the Jewish, Muslim, sometimes Hindu soteriology they try to pass off as Christian). They make justification synergistic, progressive, semi-Pelagian and ALL ABOUT SELF - as we've witnessed in this thread (mostly from some Evangelicals but of course also by a Catholic).



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Hallelujah!! There is some sweet Gospel there in that statement and it's exactly what the bible says.

wrong on both counts ..we do nothing to be saved .. but we are not saved to do nothing but to walk in obedience -you and josiah have BOTH utterly missed the point .. so if we then go on to walk in disobedience ..we simply ..are not saved .

what does the lord say of those who do NOTHING with the salvation he has gifted them .who do not then go on in obedience to become fruitful. he calls them " a wicked servant "

and what does he do to branched that are unfruitful.. ? he cuts the off and casts them into the fire ..

salvation is offered graciously ,it is grasped by faith,..we are then to abide in it by obedience . belief and faith that are not then expressed by obedience action are like a body that is not breathing.. dead already .

 

[Alithis]

So . Jesus death on the cross didn't really forgive your sins enough to get you to eternal life?

he set us fully free from serving sin resulting in death
that we might now serve righteousness resulting in eternal life .

if your not interesting in walking i obedience to the lord jesus now that he has saved you.. then you do not love him one little bit .
jesus said if you love me you wil obey me .. simple pimple .it could not be clearer

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=204]TurtleHare[/MENTION] Bump.

I gave you a reply, you didn't respond.

Let's talk about Jesus and you go first and explain your version of what you believe Jesus did at the cross but here is the clincher, don't talk about yourself at all. Go

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets and offered his shed blood as the sacrificial blood of the new covenant thus offering the perfect oblation. "Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says Jehovah of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says Jehovah of hosts. But you profane it when you say that Jehovah's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Malachi 1:10-12) "Therefore, having been justified by faith, let us be at peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ. For through him we also have access by faith to this grace, in which we stand firm, and to glory, in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only that, but we also find glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation exercises patience, and patience leads to proving, yet truly proving leads to hope, but hope is not unfounded, because the love of God is poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:1-11) "When he had gone, Jesus said: Now has the Son of man been glorified, and in him God has been glorified. If God has been glorified in him, God will in turn glorify him in himself, and will glorify him very soon. Little children, I shall be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and, as I told the Jews, where I am going, you cannot come. I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you. It is by your love for one another, that everyone will recognise you as my disciples." (John 13:31-35)

 

[psalms 91]

he set us fully free from serving sin resulting in death
that we might now serve righteousness resulting in eternal life .

if your not interesting in walking i obedience to the lord jesus now that he has saved you.. then you do not love him one little bit .
jesus said if you love me you wil obey me .. simple pimple .it could not be clearer

Yup

 

[Lamb]

The problem seems to be that in salvation Jesus does the work.

Yet there should be a period after that. And what I see is people continuing the thought instead of letting it stand that Jesus saves us. Period.

 

[psalms 91]

agreed, to me it is dangerous to seperate the two, by doing so it leaves a false impresson that we have to do nothing and can live however we want but the truth is thta when we are saved by grace their is work to be done as Jesus has told us

 

[Alithis]

The problem seems to be that in salvation Jesus does the work.

Yet there should be a period after that. And what I see is people continuing the thought instead of letting it stand that Jesus saves us. Period.

to cease at that conclusion one must take the scissors to thier bible and cut out a whole lot of scriptures - the lord jesus speaks of listening and following (obedience )
he speaks of fruitless branches being cut off
he speaks of abiding in him
he speaks of commands to be obeyed which prove love
he speaks of living in obedience to the law of the spirit of life by which all those born again of the Holy Spit now live. -if we have indeed been filed with the holy Ghost .
he speaks of being set on a narrow PATH .. a path is not a static place but leads somewhere and must be stayed true to in order to arrive where it leads

nope ,you have to go crazy with the scissors to stop at that conclusion

 

[TurtleHare]

To me it appears we have some who don't know the distinction between law and gospel and that is why what they give with one hand they remove with the other. First you have a savior but not really because he can't really save you and expects you to save yourself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To me it appears we have some who don't know the distinction between law and gospel and that is why what they give with one hand they remove with the other. First you have a savior but not really because he can't really save you and expects you to save yourself.

Law & gospel are not as distinct as Lutheran theology claims. The Law points to Christ the Gospel records what Christ did and taught.

 

[Josiah]

agreed, to me it is dangerous to seperate the two, by doing so it leaves a false impresson that we have to do nothing

Bill -


NO, in justification it is not "dangerous" to point to Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy - it's dangerous to forsake that and point to oneself !!! It is NOT false to credit Jesus with our justification (narrow) rather than self.


NO, it is not "false" that in justification (narrow) we do nothing. That is NOT false (making Christianity false), it's the central Truth. In justification (narrow) - the sole and exclusive and singular and unique issue of this thread - what you say is NOT "false" but the foundational, essential truth - JESUS is the Savior, HE does it. We are NOT the Savior - WE don't do it. Jesus is THE Savior, not self - not now, not ever... not wholly, not partly.... not at all. Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.


What IS supremely dangerous.... what undermines the whole of Christianity.... is to even give the impression that Jesus is a joke, Jesus is impotent, Jesus' life and death and resurrection are ineffective and insufficient, that the REAL Savior, the REAL effective one, the REAL one who be honored and praised and credited is SELF - the obedience of SELF, the righteousness of SELF, the works of SELF, the life of SELF, the love of SELF, how pleased God is with SELF. THAT, Bill is what is supremely dangerous, that distain for the Gospel, that diminishing of Christ and engrandizing of self, that looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross. "If salvation were through obedience then Christ died for no purpose." And yes..... we see it from Catholics (the RCC excommunicated Luther for suggesting that JESUS is the Savior, not self) which is not surprising but we're beginning to see it also from some modern American "Evangelicals" as they abandon the Gospel and central point of Protestantism (and Christianity) and join with these Catholics (even more radically abandoning the Gospel at times) in forsaking the Gospel, diminishing Christ and anggrandizing self - shifting the role of Savior from Christ to self, making Christ small and self large.

The Law points to Christ the Gospel records what Christ did and taught

Wrong.

The Law shows us the WILL of God, the Gospel shows us the HEART of God.
The Law shows justice, the Gospel shows mercy.
The Law condemns and reveals our depravity, our sin, our lacking.... it kills and drives us to our knees
The Gospel saves and reveals the mercy, forgiveness and all CHRIST has done FOR us as our Savior..... it gives life, eternal life.

What Catholics, Mormons (and yes, some modern American "Evangelicals") do is water both down SO MUCH as to make them nothing..... then twist them, mix them up, blend them, entangle them so as to confuse and give the impression that self selves self, that self needs no mercy or forgiveness or a Savior because self can saves self by keeping the Law (some would agree with Judaism, Islam and Hinduism that divine HELP is needed but it's still self saving self).... entangling so as to make Christ as little as possible, self as big as possible.....





Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[visionary]

Let's put it this way...

Man comes with a boat called salvation to rescue you. You get in the boat, you help row the boat to another person who needs rescued, you help that person get in the boat, together you save lots of people and they all help row the boat safely to shore. It was by the Man's command that you were all rescued, all rowed in harmony, you lend a hand to others He pointed out that needed help... and rightly so, you should give Him all the glory, for without Him none of this would have been accomplished.

Now I ask you.. did you have any part in your rescue? any part in helping the boat save another? any part in getting that boat to shore? Were you saved by grace, faith, and Him? Did you in any of the activities work for your salvation? If you had done nothing would the boat made it to shore? Which is the character of Yeshua, those who did nothing in the boat, or those who were actively involved and obedient to the Man?

 

[Lamb]

Man is spiritually dead until God saves him. Dead men can't choose. Dead men can't reach out. Dead men can't pray.

It's like the original Adam where God breathes new life into us.

We are like the original Adam. We can't jump into a boat. God breathes new life into us. That's salvation.

 

[Lamb]

Law & gospel are not as distinct as Lutheran theology claims. The Law points to Christ the Gospel records what Christ did and taught.

The Law tells us specifically what WE are to do and not do.

The Gospel tells us what GOD does.

 

[Lamb]

agreed, to me it is dangerous to seperate the two, by doing so it leaves a false impresson that we have to do nothing and can live however we want but the truth is thta when we are saved by grace their is work to be done as Jesus has told us

Salvation is salvation. Yes, man can fall as scripture states. But salvation is always entirely 100% GOD's doing. Not man's. We do not contribute to our salvation.