Prayer and free will

[psalms 91]

I don't see baptism in John 3. I know church tradition sometimes puts it there, but the passage itself does not clearly speak of baptism as the meaning of 'Ye must be born again'.

Again, born again is about faith and inward change and in Acts it does speak of baptism combined with the acceptance of Christ

 

[MoreCoffee]

Baptism is indeed a part as it represents an inward change with an outward sign but regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit to renew our minds and help us to crucify the flesh and become more like Christ

​Yes, baptism is a part (at the heart) of it. The Lord Jesus Christ put it this way:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15-16 KJV)
​

Since we are among those who believe and are baptised we can know that we have received the promises of God given by our Lord Jesus Christ that we shall be saved.

 

[onlyme]

Again, born again is about faith and inward change and in Acts it does speak of baptism combined with the acceptance of Christ

In Acts 2.41. those who gladly received his word were baptised. They were baptised because they had believed. They did not become baptised in order to believe.

 

[psalms 91]

In Acts 2.41. those who gladly received his word were baptised. They were baptised because they had believed. They did not become baptised in order to believe.

Agreed, didnt realize that that was what you were talking about with regeneration

 

[MoreCoffee]

I find that interpretation a real stretch.

I do not mind if you do; my post is to testify about the truth and, God permitting, help those who read to find it. But if what I wrote doesn't convince you then that is something that can be discussed and God willing, a better way to explain will be found.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Acts 2.41. those who gladly received his word were baptised. They were baptised because they had believed. They did not become baptised in order to believe.

The Lord Jesus Christ puts the two concepts together - as they should be - and says one must be born from above by water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. That is a truth to which we all can assent because he spoke it and its truth is undoubted because it passed his lips.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:5-8 KJV)
​

Being born of water and the Spirit is baptism. But if you are of a different view then perhaps you will explain what "water and the Spirit" signifies in the teaching of Christ quoted above?

 

[JPPT1974]

You have to be born again to go to God. Only way is through Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. No matter who you are or what you have done in the past. You need to repent of sins and be forgiven.

 

[Tallguy88]

​Our Lutheran brethren would call it regeneration and attach it to baptism as do we, we call it sanctifying grace and receive it in baptism.

Yeah, I was thinking they might mean Grace.

 

[Alithis]

I always hear about how man has free will and that God won't violate that free will. But I so often hear people pray for God to do something in their lives to save them. In other words, God please violate their free will. I actually have no problem that since apart from God changing someone's heart, they would never come to Him. But when I pray for the lost, it's consistent with my theology.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

free will is an interesting concept ..without going into it too deeply at all , im of the opinion that before we are saved we do not have free will. the scriptures speak of us being "prisoners " to sin. that is not free . i don't think we really have free will until we are saved from that prison .for it is only once we are set free that we can "choose" .
so perhaps when im praying for a person to be saved i am praying for them to be set free that they may then choose to follow the lord Jesus .

 

[Alithis]

I've been washed in water but not in a set of words; however the passage says "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV) and that looks like a description of the baptism (washing) of the bride of Christ (the Church) by means of the words of invocation in the liturgy of baptism.

the outer act of water baptism is just that .. the outer act .. an act of obedience by faith.. it is not being born again of the spirit of God ..only God can cause that to happen not man,not ones self ..but one may need to start a whole other thread on it .

 

[MoreCoffee]

the outer act of water baptism is just that .. the outer act .. an act of obedience by faith.. it is not being born again of the spirit of God ..only God can cause that to happen not man,not ones self ..but one may need to start a whole other thread on it .

I don't see why baptism isn't an action of God. God gave the words of invocation for the rite of baptism. The Lord said them in the gospel according to saint Matthew.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)
​

Seems odd to think that baptism is an 'outer act' as if that made it something that people do apart from God when the truth is that people baptise only because the Lord Jesus Christ commanded it and it has efficacy only because God gives grace through it. So to say that one is born of water and the Spirit in baptism is to affirm what the Lord said in John 3:5ff and to obey the Lord's command in Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[Alithis]

because again.. the outer act of water baptism is an act of obedience by faith ..
it signifies one is laying down ones life by identifying with the death of Christ and the being raised up out of the water signifies that one is being raised again into his resurrection (it is why sprinkling does not cut it ,as it does not identify with burial and Resurrection ) it is an act done by us by our own will .

it does not cause us to be born again of the holy Spirit that happens when one is then baptized by the Holy Spirit . one does not automatically mean the other has taken place ..any one can feign water baptism by going through the procedure with no repentance in their heart .they are not saved ,, they are wet . but God who knows the heart then acknowledges their obedience by baptizing them in His Holy Spirit .. something ONLY GOD can do . the apostles were baptized in water .. and yet they were told to go and wait until they were baptized in the holy ghost . a different and distinct event .one being water the other being spirit -one being an act of our will the other being an act of Gods will .

 

[MoreCoffee]

because again.. the outer act of water baptism is an act of obedience by faith ..

Baptism is not about obedience it is about God's promises. I explained that in a previous post. Your reply appears to have ignored it.

it signifies one is laying down ones life by identifying with the death of Christ and the being raised up out of the water signifies that one is being raised again into his resurrection (it is why sprinkling does not cut it ,as it does not identify with burial and Resurrection ) it is an act done by us by our own will .

it does not cause us to be born again of the holy Spirit that happens when one is then baptized by the Holy Spirit . one does not automatically mean the other has taken place ..any one can feign water baptism by going through the procedure with no repentance in their heart .they are not saved ,, they are wet . but God who knows the heart then acknowledges their obedience by baptizing them in His Holy Spirit .. something ONLY GOD can do . the apostles were baptized in water .. and yet they were told to go and wait until they were baptized in the holy ghost . a different and distinct event .one being water the other being spirit -one being an act of our will the other being an act of Gods will .

 

[Alithis]

Baptism is not about obedience it is about God's promises. I explained that in a previous post. Your reply appears to have ignored it.

it is an act of obedience by faith .signifying that we are grasping those promises - by faith . if change is not allowed to take place in the heart of the one baptized in water then the outer act is fruitless and pointless .

 

[Hammster]

Regeneration does sound like some kind of Protestant theological thing. Care to explain what it means? We might have a different word for a similar concept. But so far you seem to be using it in a way that means "being saved".

It means being born again. John 3 is a good place to start.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

free will is an interesting concept ..without going into it too deeply at all , im of the opinion that before we are saved we do not have free will. the scriptures speak of us being "prisoners " to sin. that is not free . i don't think we really have free will until we are saved from that prison .for it is only once we are set free that we can "choose" .
so perhaps when im praying for a person to be saved i am praying for them to be set free that they may then choose to follow the lord Jesus .

Basically, that's what I pray for. We cannot even see or understand the kingdom of God unless we are born again. So I pray that God goes against their "free will" and changes their heart from one of stone to one of flesh.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[MoreCoffee]

it is an act of obedience by faith .signifying that we are grasping those promises - by faith . if change is not allowed to take place in the heart of the one baptized in water then the outer act is fruitless and pointless .

What passage or passages of holy scripture teach this doctrine that you propose; namely that baptism is an act of obedience by faith?

 

[psalms 91]

What passage or passages m, How are we saved? Is it not by faith? And when did believers get baptized in Acts? Was it not right after they were saved so therefore it had to be an act of faith that their inner man would change and conform to the image of Christ or do you believe that we can change ourselves? You know become good enough to be saved, I truly hope not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What passage or passages [of holy scripture teach this doctrine that you propose; namely that baptism is an act of obedience by faith?]

m, How are we saved? Is it not by faith? And when did believers get baptized in Acts? Was it not right after they were saved so therefore it had to be an act of faith that their inner man would change and conform to the image of Christ or do you believe that we can change ourselves? You know become good enough to be saved, I truly hope not.

Your reply appears to say that you cannot find any verse in any place in the bible that teaches that baptism is an act of obedience by faith. And rightly so because no such teaching is in the bible.

 

[psalms 91]

You are right but I truly hope that it is an act offaith and belief rather than just something physical that you do otherwise I dont see where they will get any benefit from it