Prayer and free will

[MoreCoffee]

You say that you don't think God forces anyone to become a Christian. So what happens in regeneration?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

So you don't have any answer? You can't explain what your question has to do with the original post?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Original post asked ...

For those who believe we have a free will, do you pray for the lost? If so, what is your prayer?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

I gave an answer for that. Now you want to know what happens in regeneration?

James Cardinal Gibbons wrote, over a hundred years ago, that

The grace of God is that supernatural assistance which He imparts to us, through the merits of Jesus Christ, for our salvation. It is called supernatural, because no one by his own natural ability can acquire it.

Without Divine grace we can neither conceive nor accomplish anything for the sanctification of our souls. "Not that we are sufficient," says the Apostle,
​

"to think anything of ourselves, as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God."[II. Cor. iii. 5.]
"For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish"[Phil. ii. 13.] ​

anything conducive to your salvation. "Without Me," says our Lord, "you can do nothing."[John xv. 5.]
But in order that Divine grace may effectually aid us we must co-operate with it, or at least we must not resist it.

The grace of God is obtained chiefly by prayer and the Sacraments.

A Sacrament is a visible sign instituted by Christ by which grace is conveyed to our souls. Three things are necessary to constitute a Sacrament, viz.--a visible sign, invisible grace and the institution by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus, in the Sacrament of Baptism, there is the outward sign, which consists in the pouring of water and in the formula of words which are then pronounced; the interior grace or sanctification which is imparted to the soul: "Be baptised, ... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;"[Acts ii. 38.] and the ordinance of Jesus Christ, who said: "Teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[Matt. xxviii. 19.]​

Baptism and regeneration are linked according to the scriptures. So the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that

I. One Baptism for the Forgiveness of Sins


977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptised will be saved."[SUP]519 [/SUP]Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."[SUP]520[/SUP]


978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offences committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them.... Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "[SUP]521[/SUP]


979 In this battle against our inclination towards evil, who could be brave and watchful enough to escape every wound of sin? "If the Church has the power to forgive sins, then Baptism cannot be her only means of using the keys of the Kingdom of heaven received from Jesus Christ. the Church must be able to forgive all penitents their offences, even if they should sin until the last moment of their lives."[SUP]522[/SUP]


980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptised can be reconciled with God and with the Church:

Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers "a laborious kind of baptism." This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.[SUP]523[/SUP]​

519 ⇒ Mk 16:15-16.
520 ⇒ Rom 6:4; Cf. ⇒ 4:25.
521 Roman Catechism I, 11,3.
522 Roman Catechism I, 11,4.
523 Council of Trent (1551): DS 1672; Cf. St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 39,17: PG 36,356.​

Thus what happens in regeneration is that one is baptised and one's sins are washed away and one becomes a member of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, what has regeneration to do with one's prayers for the lost?

 

[Alithis]

I'll try again. If you are praying for someone who's lost, what are you asking God to do that He hasn't already done?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

iu'll say it again.. since it is the holy Spirit who inspires me to pray .."i" am not asking god to do anything, i am merely joining with him in the doing of his will. which he is already doing .. he has always been doing and will always be doing .

 

[Alithis]

i think to be fair Hammster ,you should clarify your question .
in its present form it could take a 300 page book to answer

 

[Hammster]

i think to be fair Hammster ,you should clarify your question .
in its present form it could take a 300 page book to answer

Maybe. My assumption was that when people pray for the lost, they are praying for them to be saved. Apparently that was crazy for me to think that.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

I always hear about how man has free will and that God won't violate that free will. But I so often hear people pray for God to do something in their lives to save them. In other words, God please violate their free will. I actually have no problem that since apart from God changing someone's heart, they would never come to Him. But when I pray for the lost, it's consistent with my theology.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

The Original post asked ...

I gave an answer for that. Now you want to know what happens in regeneration?

James Cardinal Gibbons wrote, over a hundred years ago, that

The grace of God is that supernatural assistance which He imparts to us, through the merits of Jesus Christ, for our salvation. It is called supernatural, because no one by his own natural ability can acquire it.

Without Divine grace we can neither conceive nor accomplish anything for the sanctification of our souls. "Not that we are sufficient," says the Apostle,
​

"to think anything of ourselves, as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God."[II. Cor. iii. 5.]
"For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish"[Phil. ii. 13.] ​

anything conducive to your salvation. "Without Me," says our Lord, "you can do nothing."[John xv. 5.]
But in order that Divine grace may effectually aid us we must co-operate with it, or at least we must not resist it.

The grace of God is obtained chiefly by prayer and the Sacraments.

A Sacrament is a visible sign instituted by Christ by which grace is conveyed to our souls. Three things are necessary to constitute a Sacrament, viz.--a visible sign, invisible grace and the institution by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus, in the Sacrament of Baptism, there is the outward sign, which consists in the pouring of water and in the formula of words which are then pronounced; the interior grace or sanctification which is imparted to the soul: "Be baptised, ... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;"[Acts ii. 38.] and the ordinance of Jesus Christ, who said: "Teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[Matt. xxviii. 19.]​

Baptism and regeneration are linked according to the scriptures. So the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that

I. One Baptism for the Forgiveness of Sins


977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptised will be saved."[SUP]519 [/SUP]Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."[SUP]520[/SUP]


978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offences committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them.... Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "[SUP]521[/SUP]


979 In this battle against our inclination towards evil, who could be brave and watchful enough to escape every wound of sin? "If the Church has the power to forgive sins, then Baptism cannot be her only means of using the keys of the Kingdom of heaven received from Jesus Christ. the Church must be able to forgive all penitents their offences, even if they should sin until the last moment of their lives."[SUP]522[/SUP]


980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptised can be reconciled with God and with the Church:

Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers "a laborious kind of baptism." This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.[SUP]523[/SUP]​

519 ⇒ Mk 16:15-16.
520 ⇒ Rom 6:4; Cf. ⇒ 4:25.
521 Roman Catechism I, 11,3.
522 Roman Catechism I, 11,4.
523 Council of Trent (1551): DS 1672; Cf. St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 39,17: PG 36,356.​

Thus what happens in regeneration is that one is baptised and one's sins are washed away and one becomes a member of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, what has regeneration to do with one's prayers for the lost?

Since it's evident the catholics have no clue about regeneration (which I was unaware of), my response would make no sense and I can why my question was confusing.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Tallguy88]

Since it's evident the catholics have no clue about regeneration (which I was unaware of), my response would make no sense and I can why my question was confusing.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

Regeneration does sound like some kind of Protestant theological thing. Care to explain what it means? We might have a different word for a similar concept. But so far you seem to be using it in a way that means "being saved".

 

[onlyme]

It's in John chapter 3.

 

[Tallguy88]

John 3 is about being Baptized and believing in Jesus.

 

[onlyme]

John 3 is about being Baptized and believing in Jesus.

And in John 3 He says: Ye must be born again.

 

[Tallguy88]

And in John 3 He says: Ye must be born again.

Born again through water and the Spirit, which refers to Baptism.

I went ahead and just looked it up on Wikipedia. It turns out that Regeneration is a specifically Protestant concept, usually held by Evangelicals and Calvinists. So that's why I was unfamiliar with the term.

 

[onlyme]

Born again through water and the Spirit, which refers to Baptism.

I went ahead and just looked it up on Wikipedia. It turns out that Regeneration is a specifically Protestant concept, usually held by Evangelicals and Calvinists. So that's why I was unfamiliar with the term.

Born again does not mean through baptism. Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water through the word'.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since it's evident the catholics have no clue about regeneration (which I was unaware of), my response would make no sense and I can why my question was confusing.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

It's interesting that your posts' departure from the OP question and insufficient definition of the new question is enough for the follow up 'answer' to decry that state of knowledge of Catholics in general. But I guess that happens sometimes, folk get into a vocabulary of their own or of their denomination and then blame others for not using it.

Such is life

 

[onlyme]

There are plenty of exhortations to pray, in Scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Regeneration does sound like some kind of Protestant theological thing. Care to explain what it means? We might have a different word for a similar concept. But so far you seem to be using it in a way that means "being saved".

​Our Lutheran brethren would call it regeneration and attach it to baptism as do we, we call it sanctifying grace and receive it in baptism.

 

[psalms 91]

​Our Lutheran brethren would call it regeneration and attach it to baptism as do we, we call it sanctifying grace and receive it in baptism.

Baptism is indeed a part as it represents an inward change with an outward sign but regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit to renew our minds and help us to crucify the flesh and become more like Christ

 

[onlyme]

Baptism is indeed a part as it represents an inward change with an outward sign but regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit to renew our minds and help us to crucify the flesh and become more like Christ

I don't see baptism in John 3. I know church tradition sometimes puts it there, but the passage itself does not clearly speak of baptism as the meaning of 'Ye must be born again'.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Born again does not mean through baptism. Ephesians 5.26 speaks of 'the washing of water through the word'.

I've been washed in water but not in a set of words; however the passage says "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV) and that looks like a description of the baptism (washing) of the bride of Christ (the Church) by means of the words of invocation in the liturgy of baptism.

 

[onlyme]

I've been washed in water but not in a set of words; however the passage says "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV) and that looks like a description of the baptism (washing) of the bride of Christ (the Church) by means of the words of invocation in the liturgy of baptism.

I find that interpretation a real stretch.