Justified by works ...

Full O Beans

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Yes, it is true that it is impossible to please God without faith. It is also true that the faithful are saved by grace.

Yes, we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and Lord.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes, we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and Lord.

Let's not add to the statement of the holy scriptures.

... by grace you have been saved ... For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast.
(Ephesians 2:5,8-9)
 

Full O Beans

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Let's not add to the statement of the holy scriptures.

... by grace you have been saved ... For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast.
(Ephesians 2:5,8-9)

Honey, I never add to scripture. God tells me what He means. Ephesians 2:8-9 is a scripture I find I have to use a lot to counter too many statements that claim that we are saved by works, either implied or direct.
 

Josiah

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Honey, I never add to scripture

Frankly, in all your posts, I've NEVER REMOTELY seen you stick to the words of Scripture. What you constantly STATE the words are never seems to be at all what the words are. With all due respect, I've RARELY met any with less respect for Scripture that you have. You seem .... well, honestly unaware of the words on the page, and in stead of those words, in lieu of those words, in place of those words... come a PLETHORA of amazingly creative words that no where appear on the page.




God tells me what He means.


Ah.... so what He states is easy for you to ignore..... I see how you do that now. Amazing. Claims like your is why I left the RCC, why I'm Protestant.

Ah... so God speaks to one. And it's YOU! I'm sure you have a verse to document that, how God speaks DIRECTLY and EXCLUSIVELY to Full O Beans.... and Full O Beans is infallible in understanding and following God who alone speaks to YOU. Have you studied any of the cults? What you claim for you is why good Christians avoid the cults.





.
 

Full O Beans

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If you knew scripture, you'd know and understand that what I say is in agreement with it.

Please keep your pointed personal assessments and your hysteria out of your posts. It's rude.
 

Josiah

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IMO, your amazingly egotistical and individualist claim that God only speaks to you and that you are infallible in understanding is rude, that what matters is not the words GOD wrote BUT rather YOUR individual, exclusive, personal "revelation" of what He MEANT to write but didn't. To all the billions of Christians (past and present) other than YOU. AND to God. Profoundly rude. And simply dismisses discussion and accountability. It's exactly why Christians avoid the cults.
 

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Adding....


Faith:


Faith can be a noun (in which case it applies to the subject of our faith) or as a verb (in which case it applies to the trust/reliance in that subject). I'll address it from the standpoint of the verb since that's the use we commonly use and how it is meant in the Protestant view of Sola Fide.


"Faith" = to trust, to rely.


When I was a kid, I had surgery. I was just old enough to know I could die - and what that meant. I actually was okay with that. It had very little to do with heaven (a concept not yet in my heart or head) but with 1 John 4:8, "We rely on the love of God, because God is love." I remember meeting the surgeon in the hospital - and that he kept calling me by the wrong name (Josh, I think). I realized, he doesn't know me - much less love me or even care about me. That was powerful. And yet, Mom and Dad told me he was a good doctor and God could use him. I was okay with that... I remember being moved onto the cold, hard table with the huge light above me - although by this time I was already very sleepy - fighting that as best I could. I didn't know anything about the surgery, I didn't know anything about this surgeon, and clearly he knew nothing about me (not even my name) - or any of the rest of the staff involved in all this. And yet, I entrusted my life. Willingly. And I remember being okay wih that. I remember thinking: no matter what, it's okay, God loves me, and all that I love. God said, "My grace is sufficient for you." It was. While my reliance was active on my part (I placed my life in their hands), there were no "works" on my part involved. There was no "obedience" other than I laid limp and allowed to happen whatever happened...


I know how planes fly; I understand the principles involved. Still, whenever I board one of those HUGE planes, I am amazed. They are so big and heavy! And inside, they are STUFFED with overweight Americans (probably more so than the engineers planned for), and under them, all their luggage - too much. And, of course, I don't know the pilot and he doesn't know me (or care). I don't know the flight plan or the weather report. I don't know the mechanics or their reports or when this plane was last overhauled. In fact, I know NOTHING about this particular plan or crew or flight. And I realize that when a plane stops working at 40K feet, well, it means we'll all be meeting Jesus. While the ODDS of that are very small, that means little for this particular flight - this could be that 1% (or whatever). It bothers me not. I board the plane. And as it takes off, as it's going down the runway, I hope to be able to see the wings and sit (passively!! in awe of it all, and then, surprisingly soon, the wheels chirp, and the plane rises.


Faith and Knowledge certainly have a relationship, but it's not a causitive or mechanical one, but rather a relational one. See my two illustrations above. To insist that faith is the RESULT of knowledge is to deny that those below a certain IQ or age are capable of faith and therefore of salvation. And, IMO, undermines the very nature of faith which is to rest, rely, trust.



Faith is active. Luther said, "Faith is a busy, active thing." Faith changes us - from the inside out, and that reveals itself in genuine, not forced, things. Faith that is just some claim, words we chant, is not faith. Just chanting the right syllables is not faith.

There's two senses in which faith is to be active:

1. Faith causes us to rely, to rest, to trust. To use the airplane illustration above, another person may have the exactly same information (or LACK thereof!!!!) and yet does not board the plane. In his/her case, there is no faith. The irony is that faith, while active, is rest - and therefore passive.

2. Faith is a change in our heart and results in a change in our lives. "By their fruits you will know them." "Faith without works is dead." A good tree bears fruit. But don't press this TOO far! The "transformation" of faith is not complete (this side of heaven), we remain here always incomplete, always saint AND sinner at the same time. And while faith is constant, the opportunities are not. To insist, for example, that there must be tangible good works - helping the little old lady across the street - would be to insist that a baby cannot have faith and therefore cannot be saved. I think the thief on the cross had faith and salvation - as far as I can tell from the text, he did NOTHING after coming to faith. To make works a requirement is to proclaim he went to hell. The principle is sound, but it shouldn't be pressed too far.


Faith is GOD'S work, not ours. Faith is not OUR work for which WE can take any credit. "This is the work of God - to believe in the one He has sent." (John 6:29), "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3), "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8),





Sola Fide (Faith Alone)...


"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Acts 16:30-31


"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believe in Him will not perish but has everlasting life." John 3:16


"Everyone who believes in Him receives the forgiveness of sins through His name." Acts 10:43



Sola Fide states that justification (narrow sense), is the result of Christ's works, not our works.


Sola Fide does NOT exclude OUR works from our lives as Christians, it does exclude it as the means of our justification - it rejects that OUR works - per se - justify us.




Faith and works.


Two common Protestant proverbs:

"Faith alone saves but faith is never alone."
"We are save BY faith FOR works."

OUR works is a response or expression or "working out" of God's love and gift of salvation but it's not the cause of it. Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6, James 2:17. A good tree yields good fruit, but it's the tree being good that makes the good fruit, not the good fruit that makes the tree good. God has done something inside of us - Ephesians 2:8, and that expresses itself in tangible, living, loving ways - which is the basis of the Great Commandment.



Some thoughts about James 2:17...


Faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Some will quote this verse as if it somehow undermines Sola Fide. It does not - actually, this is a part of Sola Fide. The Book of James is profoundly PRACTICAL, not theological in nature, and is entirely addressing the issue of discipleship (sanctification in the broad sense) not primarily focused on justification. The book of James is written TO Christians, thus the justified. In James 2:14-26, by separating faith from life, James is speaking of "faith" as just a proclaimation, a word, a chant, a syllable. Protestants agree: If faith is just a word, a thought, mental assent or agreement, if it's just a word we say - that's not faith at all. This is a part of the concept of Sola Fide. Luther said about this verse: "A man is justified by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone."



A blessed Lent to all...



- Josiah





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interesting omission. your only presenting a part of the message..the lutheran part i assume?


Tell me , can a disciple of the lord jesus. ..believe in Jesus and hate him also ?
 
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MoreCoffee

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So many opinions and so little exegesis of the holy scriptures.
 

Lamb

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Back on topic please!
 

Stravinsk

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Consider the case, my brothers, of someone who says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what good is that? So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

This is how to answer people of that kind: “You say you have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works. I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that there is one God? That's commendable. And yet the demons believe the same thing and shudder. But do you care to know, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless? You surely know that Abraham our father was justified by his works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? There you have it, faith and works were working together; his faith was perfected by his works, and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in the Lord and it was counted to him as righteousness”, and he came to be called the Lord’s friend. You see now that a man is justified by doing good works and not by faith alone. In the same manner, wasn't Raʹhab the prostitute justified by her good works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? A body dies when it is separated from the spirit, in the same way faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

The way of justification may not be the legal declaration that some think it to be because saint James clearly teaches that being justified is not merely a matter of a legal declaration that one is just one must also work the kind of works that justice demands.

James's letter is especially interesting in that it quotes the same story Saul/Paul does (Abraham/Isaac) to prove faith and works go together rather than are separate.

I don't need any special wisdom other than common knowledge to know the same. If the forecast is for rain or harsh weather, I'll dress appropriately and take the needed precautions. That is faith (believing the weather forecast or seeing the storm clouds gathering for myself) with "works" - (preparing for what I believe will transpire - raincoat, leaving early for work, etc). My actions with regards to the weather are working in agreement with what I believe about it. To separate the two is senseless.
 

psalms 91

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IMO, your amazingly egotistical and individualist claim that God only speaks to you and that you are infallible in understanding is rude, that what matters is not the words GOD wrote BUT rather YOUR individual, exclusive, personal "revelation" of what He MEANT to write but didn't. To all the billions of Christians (past and present) other than YOU. AND to God. Profoundly rude. And simply dismisses discussion and accountability. It's exactly why Christians avoid the cults.
And the kool aid of saying people dont hear from God
 

Brighten04

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James's letter is especially interesting in that it quotes the same story Saul/Paul does (Abraham/Isaac) to prove faith and works go together rather than are separate.

I don't need any special wisdom other than common knowledge to know the same. If the forecast is for rain or harsh weather, I'll dress appropriately and take the needed precautions. That is faith (believing the weather forecast or seeing the storm clouds gathering for myself) with "works" - (preparing for what I believe will transpire - raincoat, leaving early for work, etc). My actions with regards to the weather are working in agreement with what I believe about it. To separate the two is senseless.

AMEN!:amen: This is the simplest explanation of faith and works I have ever seen. But sometimes a work of faith is a bit more difficult, like with Abraham and what Father told him to do. The "forecast" had been given that Isaac would be the son of the promise. So Abraham believed this "forecast" so much that when the command came to sacrifice his son he obeyed because he believed the "forecast" and his faith was not shaken in spite of how things looked.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Romans 4: 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
 

Josiah

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interesting omission. your only presenting a part of the message..the lutheran part i assume?


Tell me , can a disciple of the lord jesus. ..believe in Jesus and hate him also ?


1. The thread is not about being a disciple, it's about justification.

2. You seem to have a real problem with words. There is no way I can possibly explain things I never, ever, remotely said..... You need to read the words. The black letters on the white page forming WORDS. IF you can find the words, "we art to both love and hate Jesus to cause justification" then I can address my words, but if you paid attention you'd know what we all do: I never stated that.
 

tango

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Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We are NOT justified by works. If that was so then Lord Jesus suffered, bled, and died for no reason.


I think this is one where we need to look at cause and effect.

We aren't justified by our works - if we were then, as you say, Christ died for nothing. But at the same time if we have no works we can't lay much of a claim to faith.

Believing in something is far more than announcing "I believe". If we truly believe in something our actions will reflect that belief. In simplistic, secular terms if we believe the bridge will take our weight we will cross it without concern, and if we don't believe the bridge will take our weight we'll either say as much or we'll come up with ways to avoid crossing it. If we truly believe that Christ has saved us, and that salvation is the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive, it's inevitable that we will live accordingly. If we buy a new doodad for our homes and are thrilled with it we tell people, so how much more should we naturally want to tell people about the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive? And if we truly love others our lives will show it - to borrow from James' terminology we will see a hungry man and feed him. If the best we bother with is to say to him "be filled" we can't claim to love him - our lives demonstrate that we don't love him at all. And, as John wrote, if we do not love our brother who we have seen how can we love God who we have not seen? (1Jn 4:20)

So I suppose you could put it that the works don't save us, but works are evidence of Christ within us. If we have no works then anyone might be justified in questioning whether we truly believe what we claim to believe. As Peter wrote, we should "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you" (1Pe 3:15). Why would anyone ask us about the hope that is in us, unless our lives demonstrated that we had a hope? Nobody is impressed by bold statements about what we believe when our actions say the opposite (as one person I knew who, when diagnosed with a particular disease, constantly insisted "I am healed" yet still went to the doctor for treatment thereby confirming that he wasn't actually healed at all). Words are cheap but our actions confirm what we truly believe.
 

psalms 91

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Very good tango, that is exactly how I see it
 

Brighten04

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I think this is one where we need to look at cause and effect.

We aren't justified by our works - if we were then, as you say, Christ died for nothing. But at the same time if we have no works we can't lay much of a claim to faith.

Believing in something is far more than announcing "I believe". If we truly believe in something our actions will reflect that belief. In simplistic, secular terms if we believe the bridge will take our weight we will cross it without concern, and if we don't believe the bridge will take our weight we'll either say as much or we'll come up with ways to avoid crossing it. If we truly believe that Christ has saved us, and that salvation is the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive, it's inevitable that we will live accordingly. If we buy a new doodad for our homes and are thrilled with it we tell people, so how much more should we naturally want to tell people about the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive? And if we truly love others our lives will show it - to borrow from James' terminology we will see a hungry man and feed him. If the best we bother with is to say to him "be filled" we can't claim to love him - our lives demonstrate that we don't love him at all. And, as John wrote, if we do not love our brother who we have seen how can we love God who we have not seen? (1Jn 4:20)

So I suppose you could put it that the works don't save us, but works are evidence of Christ within us. If we have no works then anyone might be justified in questioning whether we truly believe what we claim to believe. As Peter wrote, we should "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you" (1Pe 3:15). Why would anyone ask us about the hope that is in us, unless our lives demonstrated that we had a hope? Nobody is impressed by bold statements about what we believe when our actions say the opposite (as one person I knew who, when diagnosed with a particular disease, constantly insisted "I am healed" yet still went to the doctor for treatment thereby confirming that he wasn't actually healed at all). Words are cheap but our actions confirm what we truly believe.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 

tango

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Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

And indeed a wise man once said that if we denied him before men he would deny us before God. I suspect "deny him before men" related to our actions more than the words we say. It costs us virtually nothing to trot along to church on a Sunday morning, sing a few songs and slip an envelope into the collection plate. It costs us a lot more to live a righteous life, correcting mistakes made in our favor, loving the unlovely and actually feeding the needy rather than giving them some soothing words about how we'll pray for them if we remember by the time we get back to our warm homes. Or maybe we take the easy option of just giving some money to charity and figuring Someone Else can do the dirty work of actually loving people and we'll just hand over a bit of cash and wash our hands of it all.

It's an interesting balance to strike - it's probably safe to assume the Good Samaritan didn't go out looking for someone beaten up and left for dead at the roadside, he just encountered a situation and loved the person he encountered. Sometimes I wonder if we can get so busy looking for people to love that we miss the people among us who are lonely or who are hurting in some other way. Maybe it comes down to the natural tendency to view visibly doing something as having a higher value than quietly spending time with the widow whose husband died six years ago and who still desperately misses him, who feels abandoned because nobody goes to visit her but who puts on a brave face at church because she doesn't want to be a burden on anyone.
 

Brighten04

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And indeed a wise man once said that if we denied him before men he would deny us before God. I suspect "deny him before men" related to our actions more than the words we say. It costs us virtually nothing to trot along to church on a Sunday morning, sing a few songs and slip an envelope into the collection plate. It costs us a lot more to live a righteous life, correcting mistakes made in our favor, loving the unlovely and actually feeding the needy rather than giving them some soothing words about how we'll pray for them if we remember by the time we get back to our warm homes. Or maybe we take the easy option of just giving some money to charity and figuring Someone Else can do the dirty work of actually loving people and we'll just hand over a bit of cash and wash our hands of it all.

It's an interesting balance to strike - it's probably safe to assume the Good Samaritan didn't go out looking for someone beaten up and left for dead at the roadside, he just encountered a situation and loved the person he encountered. Sometimes I wonder if we can get so busy looking for people to love that we miss the people among us who are lonely or who are hurting in some other way. Maybe it comes down to the natural tendency to view visibly doing something as having a higher value than quietly spending time with the widow whose husband died six years ago and who still desperately misses him, who feels abandoned because nobody goes to visit her but who puts on a brave face at church because she doesn't want to be a burden on anyone.

The Good Samaritan is a good passage also.

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
 

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1. The thread is not about being a disciple, it's about justification.

2. You seem to have a real problem with words. There is no way I can possibly explain things I never, ever, remotely said..... You need to read the words. The black letters on the white page forming WORDS. IF you can find the words, "we art to both love and hate Jesus to cause justification" then I can address my words, but if you paid attention you'd know what we all do: I never stated that.

Wow could you avoid the question more blatantly ?did you not consider it may be a precursor to me entering the topic? Is everything you've said absolutley correct and exhaustive only because you have said it and no one else can hear or understand the word of God?..
The presentation of a partial gospel is a partial truth ... Justification is by faith... And where faith truly exists.. So does obedience. A claim of faith with no outworked obedience is only a claim. We simply cant dissect the whole gospel and then only preseng the parts we personally like.James displays this when he presents both interlocking messages.
 
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