Justified by works ...

MoreCoffee

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This thread is about Justification. It is specifically about what James 2:14-26 teaches about justification.
 

Alithis

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Wicked people can do good works, and that doesn't mean they are people of faith. Scripture teaches us that those who are true children of God through faith in His Son will be renewed, and thereby their works will follow naturally to be works that glorify God.

this is a good point
 

Alithis

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I think this is one where we need to look at cause and effect.

We aren't justified by our works - if we were then, as you say, Christ died for nothing. But at the same time if we have no works we can't lay much of a claim to faith.

Believing in something is far more than announcing "I believe". If we truly believe in something our actions will reflect that belief. In simplistic, secular terms if we believe the bridge will take our weight we will cross it without concern, and if we don't believe the bridge will take our weight we'll either say as much or we'll come up with ways to avoid crossing it. If we truly believe that Christ has saved us, and that salvation is the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive, it's inevitable that we will live accordingly. If we buy a new doodad for our homes and are thrilled with it we tell people, so how much more should we naturally want to tell people about the greatest gift anyone could hope to receive? And if we truly love others our lives will show it - to borrow from James' terminology we will see a hungry man and feed him. If the best we bother with is to say to him "be filled" we can't claim to love him - our lives demonstrate that we don't love him at all. And, as John wrote, if we do not love our brother who we have seen how can we love God who we have not seen? (1Jn 4:20)

So I suppose you could put it that the works don't save us, but works are evidence of Christ within us. If we have no works then anyone might be justified in questioning whether we truly believe what we claim to believe. As Peter wrote, we should "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you" (1Pe 3:15). Why would anyone ask us about the hope that is in us, unless our lives demonstrated that we had a hope? Nobody is impressed by bold statements about what we believe when our actions say the opposite (as one person I knew who, when diagnosed with a particular disease, constantly insisted "I am healed" yet still went to the doctor for treatment thereby confirming that he wasn't actually healed at all). Words are cheap but our actions confirm what we truly believe.

highlighted part .. the point i was making also :)

i don't see any reason to separate the issue
 

Alithis

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Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

in this case what "works " is he speaking of ?
 

Josiah

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And where faith truly exists.. So does obedience.

True, but this thread is about justification - not sanctification (both in narrow, theological sense).

I agree that OBEDIENCE leads to justification; where perhaps I disagree with you, Mormons and some Catholics is that I believe that it's JESUS' obedience that justifies (thus Jesus is the Savior) rather than MY obedience (which would make me the Savior). When SELF is confused with God.... when OUR works are entangled with JESUS' life and death and resurrection.... with justification and sanctification are confused..... when Law and Gospel are mixed up ....the result is looking in the mirror rather than looking at the Cross, and IMO, Christianity is abandoned.

In my view, the "issue" is James uses a term in a way we no longer do: he is not speaking of justification in the tight, narrow, theological sense that we have for nearly 2000 years. He is actually speaking of discipleship, of sanctification, of the RESPONSE to justification rather than the CAUSE of justification. I don't believe that James is denouncing the very foundation of Christianity - that JESUS is the Savior rather than the one we see in the mirror, that it's JESUS' obedience and love and life and death and resurrection that causes justification rather than OURS.

But perhaps all this is irrelevant to you since GOD HIMSELF speaks directly to just YOU and YOU are infallible in knowing what God MEANS rather than SAID.



A claim of faith with no outworked obedience is only a claim. We simply cant dissect the whole gospel and then only preseng the parts we personally like.James displays this when he presents both interlocking messages.


Your word "both" seems to imply there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. When they are confused, blended, entangled, mixed up: the result can be the destruction of Christianity.





.
 

MoreCoffee

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James 2:14-26 challenges the strict separation of Justification from Sanctification.
 

Josiah

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James 2:14-26 challenges the strict separation of Justification from Sanctification.



I don't think so. Yes, one FOLLOWS the other but they are not the same thing.


There are two different issues here: Justification.... Sanctification.... Both in the narrow, theological sense.


Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what theology means here is justification - narrow sense). JESUS is the Savior (.... IS...... THE....... exclusively). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Classic Protestants believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior (in this sense of justification) - in whole or in part - now or ever - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teachers taught me to do, many Catholic sermons taught me to do, as Catholics keep telling us we must do. And yes, as some very modern American "Evangelicals" insist we do.


SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. To grow toward Christ-like-ness. THIS is a process (unlike my physical or spiritual coming to life). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). Now, a point could be made that if I'm not growing... if there are no signs of life in me.... maybe I'm not alive! But it's not the growing that MAKES me alive, it only reveals THAT I'm alive.

And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.



It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a slow, progressive, SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, modern Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear as constant din from them; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. Yes, I know, as YOU like to point out (you seem to be among the 10% or so of Catholics who believe this, a bit to your credit), we get HELP. A point Jews and Muslims ALWAYS point out, always stress - but only a few Catholics do, and then usually only if pressured into it. But God HELPING us gain life is not the same as God GIVING us life. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God.


Yes.... with profound sadness..... I realize that SOME very modern "Protestants" have come full-circle and have returned to Catholicism on this point (IMO, worse - much worse)... and this does sadden me. This blending, entangling, strangling, mixing of Gospel and Law, of Christ and self, of justification and sanctification so that ultiamately the actual factor which results in my being heaven found is SELF and what SELF does for God, with SELF as the effectual Savior.


As I noted before, it is MY OPINION that IN SPITE OF the mess the RCC now teaches, the Gospel has not been killed by Catholicism. Because of the reading of Scripture..... because of the gospel proclaimed in the liturgy and often in hymns, because the ancient festivals continue..... Catholics STILL have some concept (however buried) of Christ as SAVIOR. IF..... oh what a big and difficult word that is...... IF you can help the Catholic untangle the MESS they've been taught, you can find they are actually Christians after all. I believe this to be the case; I believe Catholics generally ARE heaven-bound in spite of their denomination. Sad. Because the one issue a church should be MOST clear on, the MOST distinctively CHRISTian - that's the very doctrine Catholicism is weakest on, so blurry, so confused, so entangled, so NON-distinctively Christian. And as I've stated before, I'm not sure that OFFICIALLY Catholicism actually teaches what most Catholics do (it may be that OFFICIALLY, the RCC is better than a few modern "Evangelical" Protestants on this point, too). It's hard to know.... officially, Catholicism has so entertwined and mixed up these things it's just hard to know. Perhaps it is simply my hearts desire to believe that in Catholicism, the problem is more one of communication that foundational belief.




Again, answer this: WHO IS the Savior? (in this sense of justification).....


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (justification) is entirely, wholly, totally wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not justification. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. And you will avoid the greatest of all heresies: confusing self with Christ, denying Christ as THE (sole) Savior.


Or as some classic Protestants at times put it, there are two places to look for justification..... the Cross or the mirror. Classic Protestantism directs all clearly, boldly to the Cross. Sadly, many Catholics and a few modern American "Evangelicals" point all to the mirror.




Pax


- Josiah




.
 
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Brighten04

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in this case what "works " is he speaking of ?

He is speaking of works of unrighteousness. Look at the verses. They are self explanatory, no need to add anything.

Quote Originally Posted by Brighten04 View Post
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 

popsthebuilder

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Justification to other men is by works, as all can say they are faithful, but for it to be observed by others is to make it much harder to deny. Of course that has nothing to do with intentionally drawing attention to yourself or your actions.


Peace


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

MoreCoffee

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You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
 

Pedrito

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It seems that nobody has yet pointed out in this thread, that there are some significant, God-inspired prophecies in the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), that may have some relevance to the discussion.

Some of those prophecies are naturally expressed in terms that were meaningful and understood by the respective prophet and his readers of the time. There are thoughts expressed in terms of the Law, for instance. Understandably so. However, the clear underlying theme is personal obedience and the resulting benefits.

The prophecies point to a time that was yet future when they were written. In that then-future time, an unrighteous person could become righteous by obedience. Likewise, a righteous person could become unrighteous through later disobedience.

Obedience, not faith, is the key. It would seem that at that time, people will be justified by works.

To my knowledge, the world has yet to experience that period of history.

A careful study of the passages, without preconceived interpretations, may well be enlightening. Romans 11 and other New Testament passages throw light on the Old Testament passages, and vice versa.

Three passages to look at (not reproduced here because of space requirements) are:

Jeremiah 31:27-37

Ezekiel 18:1-28

Ezekiel 33:10-20

Note: I would suggest that any attempt to associate Judah and Israel with the church in these passages, is contrived. Is it not true that every mention of the New Covenant in the Hebrew Scriptures is associated with Israel as an identifiable nation? And are not church members called the children of promise? And were not the covenant that God made with Abraham, and the promise that God made to Abraham, different in nature?

Justified by “works”?

It may depend on when.
 

Alithis

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we are justified by faith as the simple plain Scripture declares .. and if we are truly justified by faith - our works prove it to be so ;)
 

MoreCoffee

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we are justified by faith as the simple plain Scripture declares .. and if we are truly justified by faith - our works prove it to be so ;)

Yet the holy scriptures say "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)
 

tango

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Yet the holy scriptures say "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

I've always interpreted that to mean that the works demonstrate that the faith is real.

It's easy to say "I believe in..." or "I believe that..." but another thing entirely to live accordingly. We can use lots of warm words to say what we think is the right course of action but unless we actually take that course of action we can't really claim to believe it's the correct one.

I believe your cooking tastes wonderful, I just won't actually eat it. I believe the bridge will take my weight, I just won't cross it. I believe that God calls us to love the unlovely, I just find them a bit, you know, icky and difficult to love. How can I claim to truly believe the things I say I believe when my actions don't align with my words?

In other words, the works demonstrate whose faith is real and whose faith is just a bunch of fine words that means nothing.
 

MoreCoffee

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I've always interpreted that to mean that the works demonstrate that the faith is real.

It's easy to say "I believe in..." or "I believe that..." but another thing entirely to live accordingly. We can use lots of warm words to say what we think is the right course of action but unless we actually take that course of action we can't really claim to believe it's the correct one.

I believe your cooking tastes wonderful, I just won't actually eat it. I believe the bridge will take my weight, I just won't cross it. I believe that God calls us to love the unlovely, I just find them a bit, you know, icky and difficult to love. How can I claim to truly believe the things I say I believe when my actions don't align with my words?

In other words, the works demonstrate whose faith is real and whose faith is just a bunch of fine words that means nothing.

Wouldn't it say "so you see a man's faith is demonstrated by works and not by faith alone" if the meaning you attach to it were what was intended? Clearly it makes little sense to say it that way because it is so obvious. The way it is actually said gives information that is not obvious to many in this thread and so they argue against what the verse and the passage says. The words, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24), tell every reader in every age that professed faith is worthless without works and that justification cannot and does not occur without faith working through love.
 

psalms 91

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Wouldn't it say "so you see a man's faith is demonstrated by works and not by faith alone" if the meaning you attach to it were what was intended? Clearly it makes little sense to say it that way because it is so obvious. The way it is actually said gives information that is not obvious to many in this thread and so they argue against what the verse and the passage says. The words, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24), tell every reader in every age that professed faith is worthless without works and that justification cannot and does not occur without faith working through love.
I can agree with this
 

Josiah

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tango

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Wouldn't it say "so you see a man's faith is demonstrated by works and not by faith alone" if the meaning you attach to it were what was intended? Clearly it makes little sense to say it that way because it is so obvious.

To analyse the sentence the way you wrote it would make no sense at all - if you remove the reference to works you'd end up with "you see a man's faith is demonstrated not by faith alone", so without the works the sentence falls apart in a circular self-reference. That's not to say it might have been worded differently, but I don't see that the wording as it stands necessarily requires the meaning you're giving it.

The way it is actually said gives information that is not obvious to many in this thread and so they argue against what the verse and the passage says. The words, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24), tell every reader in every age that professed faith is worthless without works and that justification cannot and does not occur without faith working through love.

Professed faith is worthless if it's just a bunch of words. If I sit in church and recite the Apostles Creed of all the things that "I believe" and then walk out of church and live in a way that makes it very clear I don't actually believe any of it, what value is it to recite the things I claim to believe? If I say I believe my friend can be trusted not to steal my wife's jewelry if I give him a key to my house but then come up with one reason after another after another not to actually give him a key then he might have cause to question whether I really trust him. And if we claim to love Jesus, whose statements "if you love me, obey my commandments" (John 14:15) and "The whole of the Law and the Prophets boil down to loving God and loving each other" (Matt 22:37-40, heavily paraphrased), then if we don't love each other our claim to love Jesus rings hollow.

Eph 2:8-9 is clear that salvation is by grace and not by works, and putting the two together seems to me to say that it is grace that saves us and works that demonstrate that we have accepted that grace. A few fine-sounding words about how we "accepted Jesus" may or may not be a load of hot air, and good works don't earn us a place in heaven (as per Ephesians), but the good works demonstrate that we truly have accepted the grace of Christ and are keen to pass God's love on to others.
 

MoreCoffee

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...

Eph 2:8-9 is clear that salvation is by grace and not by works, and putting the two together seems to me to say that it is grace that saves us and works that demonstrate that we have accepted that grace. A few fine-sounding words about how we "accepted Jesus" may or may not be a load of hot air, and good works don't earn us a place in heaven (as per Ephesians), but the good works demonstrate that we truly have accepted the grace of Christ and are keen to pass God's love on to others.

I don't see much value in the initial remarks in your post so I'm leaving them alone except to write this note.

As for your perspective in Ephesians 2:8-9 I wonder why you didn't include verse 10? The argument made by saint Paul is that boasting about one's achievements as if they play a role in salvation is not possible but saint Paul does not argue that works mean nothing. He points to works as what God creates Christians to do. Verse 10 is quite important to saint Paul's argument.
Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. (Ephesians 2:8-10)​
 

Josiah

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I don't see much value in the initial remarks in your post so I'm leaving them alone except to write this note.

As for your perspective in Ephesians 2:8-9 I wonder why you didn't include verse 10? The argument made by saint Paul is that boasting about one's achievements as if they play a role in salvation is not possible but saint Paul does not argue that works mean nothing. He points to works as what God creates Christians to do.


Correct. Thus your error in confusing justification (BECOMING a Christian.... ) and sanctification (BEING a Christian). The error many Catholics (and sadly, some modern Protestants) make in entangling, confusing, blending the two things. What CHRISTIANS do is what CHRISTIANS do, not what causes them to become Christians.

See post 47.


Verse 10 is quite important to saint Paul's argument.
Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. (Ephesians 2:8-10)​


EXACTLY! It's what the RC Denomination excommunicated Luther for..... what it split itself over. EXACTLY what all my Catholic teachers taught us is heresy.




.
 
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