Justified by works ...

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, why is your reply about Protestant Vs Catholic?

 

[Josiah]

NEITHER posts 47 or 60 are "Catholic V Protestant." And there's no need to try to hijack all I posted with that.

I invite you to respond to the posts of the two posts. Or not. Not not try to ignore all the points and IMPOSE something never said. Indeed, some things SAID are the opposite of that.

 

[tango]

I don't see much value in the initial remarks in your post so I'm leaving them alone except to write this note.

As for your perspective in Ephesians 2:8-9 I wonder why you didn't include verse 10? The argument made by saint Paul is that boasting about one's achievements as if they play a role in salvation is not possible but saint Paul does not argue that works mean nothing. He points to works as what God creates Christians to do. Verse 10 is quite important to saint Paul's argument.

Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life. (Ephesians 2:8-10)​

I don't think verse 10 changes the meaning at all. We are saved by grace, not by anything we have done. vv8-9 indicate that we are saved by grace and not through our works, and v10 then says that we were created in Jesus to do good works. If we follow Jesus we'll do the good works - doing the good works doesn't save us (as per v9) but if we don't show the good works we're clearly not following Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't think verse 10 changes the meaning at all. We are saved by grace, not by anything we have done. vv8-9 indicate that we are saved by grace and not through our works, and v10 then says that we were created in Jesus to do good works. If we follow Jesus we'll do the good works - doing the good works doesn't save us (as per v9) but if we don't show the good works we're clearly not following Jesus.

Meaning is expanded and completed by context and verse ten definitely does add and expand on the theme in saint Paul's argument about grace in Ephesians 2:1-10.

And you were dead, through the crimes and the sins which used to make up your way of life when you were living by the principles of this world, obeying the ruler who dominates the air, the spirit who is at work in those who rebel. We too were all among them once, living only by our natural inclinations, obeying the demands of human self-indulgence and our own whim; our nature made us no less liable to God's retribution than the rest of the world. But God, being rich in faithful love, through the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our sins, brought us to life with Christ -- it is through grace that you have been saved- and raised us up with him and gave us a place with him in heaven, in Christ Jesus. This was to show for all ages to come, through his goodness towards us in Christ Jesus, how extraordinarily rich he is in grace. Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life.
(Ephesians 2:1-10)

And saint James argues that doing good works does justify. That's why he wrote

How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar? So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified. There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, was she not justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave? As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.
(James 2:14-26)

 

[tango]

Meaning is expanded and completed by context and verse ten definitely does add and expand on the theme in saint Paul's argument about grace in Ephesians 2:1-10.

And you were dead, through the crimes and the sins which used to make up your way of life when you were living by the principles of this world, obeying the ruler who dominates the air, the spirit who is at work in those who rebel. We too were all among them once, living only by our natural inclinations, obeying the demands of human self-indulgence and our own whim; our nature made us no less liable to God's retribution than the rest of the world. But God, being rich in faithful love, through the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our sins, brought us to life with Christ -- it is through grace that you have been saved- and raised us up with him and gave us a place with him in heaven, in Christ Jesus. This was to show for all ages to come, through his goodness towards us in Christ Jesus, how extraordinarily rich he is in grace. Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life.
(Ephesians 2:1-10)

And saint James argues that doing good works does justify. That's why he wrote

How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar? So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified. There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, was she not justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave? As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.
(James 2:14-26)

Sure, v10 expands on the theme but I don't see it changing the meaning in any way. Eph 2:8-10 says we are saved by grace and not through works so that we can't boast, and that we are created to do good works. The good works are evidence of the faith that saves us through grace, not a means to salvation in and of themselves.

What James is saying (in the first verse you quote) is that someone who has never done anything good cannot claim to have faith. If I say I love Jesus and follow Jesus but don't do the things Jesus told me to do, how can I claim Jesus is Lord of my life? If Jesus says "feed the hungry" but I decide it's easier and less inconvenient to say to the hungry "I wish you well, be well fed" before closing the door in their face I cannot claim to be following Jesus at all. In other words the works don't justify us, they demonstrate that our faith is real. As James also says, "by my deeds I will show you my faith". Believing in God (having faith) is all well and good but the demons do that too.

Faith saves us, deeds demonstrate that our faith is real. Anyone can say "I love God", anyone can recite a list of "we believe" statements from this creed or that creed but the works demonstrate that the faith is real. If Abraham had used lots of fine-sounding words to say how much he trusted God but wouldn't follow God's instruction to sacrifice Isaac, what use would his empty words be? The willingness to take his only son, who he loved, to be a sacrifice demonstrated that he really did believe God would work something out. A statement of belief is useless if our actions demonstrate that we don't actually believe any of the things we say we believe.

Works without faith are useless (as per Paul), faith without works is dead. Faith that is demonstrated through works is real.


How would you reconcile what would appear to some to be a contradiction between Paul saying works don't save us and James saying they do?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sure, v10 expands on the theme but I don't see it changing the meaning in any way. Eph 2:8-10 says we are saved by grace and not through works so that we can't boast, and that we are created to do good works. The good works are evidence of the faith that saves us through grace, not a means to salvation in and of themselves.

What James is saying (in the first verse you quote) is that someone who has never done anything good cannot claim to have faith. If I say I love Jesus and follow Jesus but don't do the things Jesus told me to do, how can I claim Jesus is Lord of my life? If Jesus says "feed the hungry" but I decide it's easier and less inconvenient to say to the hungry "I wish you well, be well fed" before closing the door in their face I cannot claim to be following Jesus at all. In other words the works don't justify us, they demonstrate that our faith is real. As James also says, "by my deeds I will show you my faith". Believing in God (having faith) is all well and good but the demons do that too.

Faith saves us, deeds demonstrate that our faith is real. Anyone can say "I love God", anyone can recite a list of "we believe" statements from this creed or that creed but the works demonstrate that the faith is real. If Abraham had used lots of fine-sounding words to say how much he trusted God but wouldn't follow God's instruction to sacrifice Isaac, what use would his empty words be? The willingness to take his only son, who he loved, to be a sacrifice demonstrated that he really did believe God would work something out. A statement of belief is useless if our actions demonstrate that we don't actually believe any of the things we say we believe.

Works without faith are useless (as per Paul), faith without works is dead. Faith that is demonstrated through works is real.


How would you reconcile what would appear to some to be a contradiction between Paul saying works don't save us and James saying they do?

I ask you to stop and ask folk who say they believe in eternal security of the believer if works play any role in salvation and then tell us here, back in CH, what responses you receive.

 

[tango]

I ask you to stop and ask folk who say they believe in eternal security of the believer if works play any role in salvation and then tell us here, back in CH, what responses you receive.

Not sure why you want me to do that. If salvation is as simple as a "one and done" in that you get on your knees and recite the Sinners' Prayer word-for-word and then you can do whatever you want for the rest of your life, there's no need to worry about much of anything. Just get people to recite it once and then move on.

In any event I think it's something of a red herring. If we are saved our good works will follow. If our good works cease then we would do well to examine ourselves. Given a few things Paul wrote it seems to me he didn't think salvation was a "one and done" deal either:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Since these letters were written to churches it doesn't seem like a huge shot to figure Paul believed there was more to it than "repent once, then you're good". It also aligns with one of the letters in the Revelation (emphasis mine):

Rev 2:1-5 NKJV "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: (2) "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; (3) and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. (4) Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. (5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

In the light of 1Co 3:11-15 it's possible that people who follow the "one and done" approach may be saved "as if through fire" seeing everything they ever did burned up and destroyed. But then we get back to whether we can claim to have Jesus Christ as our foundation if we're not building anything useful on that foundation.

 

[psalms 91]

No nor is it one and done

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have asked many people about eternal security and the majority are for it. Some are so for it that they say good works is carnal and think of it as a kind of wickedness.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have asked many people about eternal security and the majority are for it. Some are so for it that they say good works is carnal and think of it as a kind of wickedness.

That seems like an arrogant notion for anyone.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.