Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[fuddy]

Sorry, I goofed - please replace the 3rd word in the post above with, "the opportunity of salvation".

 

[BruceLeiter]

1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Cor 2:14-15

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Both times we have them that are saved versus them that perish !

What makes the difference ? Is it Christs death or no ?

Those who are perishing have been born to think that they are center of the universe instead of the 3-in-1 God of the Bible. If they persist their whole lives in that rebellious deception, they will, sadly, be without God's powerful presence and won't have any of their false gods that they sought comfort and security from.

The saved will have many gifts from God's grace and love, solely because of Jesus' death and resurrection and their faith in him, including a resurrected, perfect body (this body perfected) and be ushered into a new heaven and a new earth, where we will praise God constantly as we carry out his will, whatever that will be.

 

[brightfame52]

Those who are perishing have been born to think that they are center of the universe instead of the 3-in-1 God of the Bible. If they persist their whole lives in that rebellious deception, they will, sadly, be without God's powerful presence and won't have any of their false gods that they sought comfort and security from.

The saved will have many gifts from God's grace and love, solely because of Jesus' death and resurrection and their faith in him, including a resurrected, perfect body (this body perfected) and be ushered into a new heaven and a new earth, where we will praise God constantly as we carry out his will, whatever that will be.

Okay but you didn't answer my question, just confused me

 

[BruceLeiter]

So if belief is something granted to men at Gods discretion, then those He does not grant it to are utterly beyond hope? Are they damned to hell simply because they happen to be unlucky? Of course not, that would be the act of a heartless psychopath, and God is not a psychopath. And yet scripture is clear that hope is declared to be open to all people.
So it remains a mystery.
What I find disturbing is why, if all of us are sincerely asking God what the truth here is, we're so contentious about this - His Spirit, our Counselor, teaches all things and gives wisdom to all who ask, without reproach. So why after 2000 years are we still at each others throats about it - why aren't we all automatically arriving at the same conclusion?

Your first paragraph looks at God from a human viewpoint, not God's in the Bible. As the Creator of all humans, he has the right to do whatever he wants to. As I explained in a previous post, he must have a very good reason for not saving everyone, but as you say, it's a mystery because he hasn't revealed it.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Okay but you didn't answer my question, just confused me

What question did you ask? I'm working on several posts.

 

[brightfame52]

What question did you ask? I'm working on several posts.

Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

1 Cor 1:18 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 2 Cor 2:14-15 14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15...

christianityhaven.com

 

[BruceLeiter]

Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

1 Cor 1:18 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 2 Cor 2:14-15 14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15...

christianityhaven.com

Because Jesus loved the whole world, as stated in John 3:16 and because he has a general love for all the people he created as the Father's Agent with the Spirit's infinite power, in that sense he died for the whole world, including the perishing who refuse to acknowledge their Creator. However, he has a special love for the people he chose before creation to believe in him, whoever they are.

 

[brightfame52]

Because Jesus loved the whole world, as stated in John 3:16 and because he has a general love for all the people he created as the Father's Agent with the Spirit's infinite power, in that sense he died for the whole world, including the perishing who refuse to acknowledge their Creator. However, he has a special love for the people he chose before creation to believe in him, whoever they are.

To say that God loved and Christ died for them who will perish is a direct attack on the Saving Efficacy of the Death of Christ, who saves His People from their sins, such sins as " refusing to acknowledge their Creator"

 

[brightfame52]

@BruceLeiter

, including the perishing who refuse to acknowledge their Creator.

See this describes one who is under the power of sin, rebellion, hence you obviously deny Christs Death saves them He died for from the penalty and power of sin, you allow for sins power to defeat the will of Christ

 

[brightfame52]

It effects the New Birth or being Born Again !

Jesus said to Nicodemus Jn 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And this is True of everyone that Christ was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This because, Christ's Death [being made a sin offering] that makes all for whom He died Righteous before God, it demands that they be made Righteous experientially with a communicated principle of Holiness in them, of which without, no man shall see the Lord Heb 12:14

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

This Holiness is the imparted or communicated Righteousness of Christ received at New Birth !

Now that Christ's Death for those He died for does effect for them the New Birth, or their Conversion is taught in many scriptures, and particularly here 2 Cor 5:21,19

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The fact that He was made sin for them, that is a sin offering, by God charging all their sins, trespasses upon Him, for remember God did not impute their trespasses or sins upon them Vs 19 and the stated outcome of this was for them [whose sins were imputed or charged to Christ] might be made the Righteousness of God in Him !

Now the word made is interesting, it is the greek word ginomai and its the aorist subjunctive [denoting purpose because of the conjunction hina] which means to come into existence, am born,it denotes a transitioning from one condition to another See [ Jn 5:24] a conversion, So this is speaking of the imparted Righteousness of Christ they receive in their New Birth, for it also makes them a New Man Created as in Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, thats the Righteousness spoken of to be made to them in 2 Cor 5:21

Thats why the verb ginomai is very relevant with its " come into existence or being meaning", which also the word created denotes !

Also God only makes them experientially Righteous with New Birth whom He made objectively Righteous by Imputation of Christ's Righteousness, which was from Christ's obedience or death Rom 5:19b, this compliments 2 Cor 5:21 !

So if anyone Christ died for does not become experientially Righteous, and receive of the Holiness by which without none shall see the Lord in peace, then His Death was a failure within the Purpose of God !

11

 

[BruceLeiter]

Um yes, since you bought it up, could you explain what it is ? Does the scripture name it ?

After many years of study of the Bible and thought about the subject, I've come to the conclusion that the unforgivable sin is a whole lifetime of active or passive, self-centered rebellion against God. At some point (only God knows when), he lets them have their way and passes his just judgment of eternal separation from his powerful presence in hell, which they have earned. Sadly, a lot of people are going to bring that judgment on themselves by rejecting or ignoring their Creator.

Lamb is right. Jesus died for all people, but only those who receive God's gifts of faith and the new birth will go to heaven, because his death becomes effective in their lives.

 

[brightfame52]

After many years of study of the Bible and thought about the subject, I've come to the conclusion that the unforgivable sin is a whole lifetime of active or passive, self-centered rebellion against God. At some point (only God knows when), he lets them have their way and passes his just judgment of eternal separation from his powerful presence in hell, which they have earned. Sadly, a lot of people are going to bring that judgment on themselves by rejecting or ignoring their Creator.

Lamb is right. Jesus died for all people, but only those who receive God's gifts of faith and the new birth will go to heaven, because his death becomes effective in their lives.

Then you teach that sin defeated Christs saving death. The Christ I serve saves His people from their sins, from rejecting God.

 

[brightfame52]

He purged away our sins and sat down !

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

See Ps 65:3; 79:9

All for whom Christ died, they have no sins for God to charge against them, yes even before they believe, because all their sins were laid to the charge of Christ, and He bore them on His Cross 1 Pet 2:24, and having done so, He purged them away from before God's Law and Justice Heb 1:3.

Now for this to have been the case, they through His Offering, have no sins recorded against them against God's Law charged against them Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

For sin is the transgression of the law, and the strength of sin [its right to be called sin] is the Law 1 Cor 15:56, so hence by the purging of our sins [if He died for us], we have been totally exonerated before God, as if we never sinned, and yes this is the case before we become believers, and is the reason we become believers ! Because the Just shall live by Faith ! And all for whom Christ died are declared Just , for there are sins charged against them before God's Law and Justice, they have been taken out the Way !11

 

[brightfame52]

Secured Peace with God !

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This scripture by moving a comma will read:

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In other words the Peace we have with God by Christ's Death is revealed to Faith !

Jesus made Peace with God for those He died for, this Peace we have nothing to do with in having it, for it was secured for us by Christ's Death / Blood Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

This Peace with God was made for those Christ died for through His Blood, and this while we ourselves were being enemies Rom 5:10. This legal Peace of Col 1:20 is the same as the legal reconciliation of Rom 5:10, for Reconciliation was the result of peace being accomplished by the Cross.

This Peace and Reconciliation by the Blood of Christ is not contingent on any act or behavior of men, but is solely an accomplished and established fact, that should be preached as such, hence Paul calls it the Gospel or Good News of Peace Eph 6:15

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

For it rightly cannot be a Gospel of Peace, if its only a possibility of peace with God.

He Preached Peace unto you Eph 2:17

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.


Its not that peace is made available or has been offered you, those are words of false preachers and witnesses, however to all for whom Peace with God through Jesus Christ [His Blood] was accomplished for, God sees to it that Peace is preached unto them Rom 10:15

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Now this Peace / Reconciliation is one of the many accomplishments of the Cross Work of Jesus Christ for His Church, God's Elect World ! 11

 

[brightfame52]

Christ death for them He died for secures them from and heals them of revolts from God and backsliding, because God is propitiated for them by Christ Hos 14:4

4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

The word backsliding means:

1. turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding

 

[BruceLeiter]

Then you teach that sin defeated Christs saving death. The Christ I serve saves His people from their sins, from rejecting God.

No, Christ's saving death saves everyone the Father wants to save. Why he doesn't save everyone is a mystery because he hasn't revealed it. It must be a very good reason, but I assume we will know it when Jesus comes again. Sin and Satan never control God; the perfect example is Job 1 and 2, where God limits Satan's attacks on Job.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Christ death for them He died for secures them from and heals them of revolts from God and backsliding, because God is propitiated for them by Christ Hos 14:4

4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

The word backsliding means:

1. turning away, turning back, apostasy, backsliding

Yes, the northern kingdom of Israel had "committed adultery" against God by chasing after other gods. Hosea had to picture that situation by marrying a prostitute, who would chase after other men in her sinful rebellion. So, the backsliding is apostasy from God's covenant with them, not from their faith, since they never had it in the first place. Only a remnant survived, and most of them ended up in southern Judah.

 

[brightfame52]

No, Christ's saving death saves everyone the Father wants to save. Why he doesn't save everyone is a mystery because he hasn't revealed it. It must be a very good reason, but I assume we will know it when Jesus comes again. Sin and Satan never control God; the perfect example is Job 1 and 2, where God limits Satan's attacks on Job.

Again Christs Death saves them He died for from sin, rejection of Him, all disobedience and offences. No its not a mystery why He doesn't save everyone, the Father only gave Him some to save and give eternal life Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Its just His Sovereign will !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the northern kingdom of Israel had "committed adultery" against God by chasing after other gods. Hosea had to picture that situation by marrying a prostitute, who would chase after other men in her sinful rebellion. So, the backsliding is apostasy from God's covenant with them, not from their faith, since they never had it in the first place. Only a remnant survived, and most of them ended up in southern Judah.

Those sacred stories were written for the benefit of the Church as they prictured and typed what Christs Death would do for the elect in the world.

Thats why Peter quoted Isaiah Isa 53:5-6

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[brightfame52]

Shall be made Alive !

1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All for whom Christ died, was buried and rose again the third day in behalf of Shall be made Alive, That is receive resurrection life as Per 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

They shall be made alive by the New Birth and or quickening 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thats why Jesus spake thusly Jn 12:24,32

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit or Life !

Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They come to Him because they have been given life.

Jesus said on another occasion this Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Eating His flesh and drinking His Blood are activities of coming to Him, but if one doesn't come is evidence of no life in them, the flip said is if they do come its an evidence of Life in them ! That they have been made Alive by Christ !


32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth[His Death], will draw[by giving life] all men unto me. 11