Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

Lamb

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@Lamb



They weren't really redeemed by the blood of Christ. They had no root, meaning they had no Christ, no spiritual life.

In order to fall away again, you have to actually have had faith to begin with.
 

brightfame52

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In order to fall away again, you have to actually have had faith to begin with.
False, they were never saved, had no root and had hard hearts. It tells you that if you study the different soils Matt 13 20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Lk 8 13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Their believing was superficial and not the Gift of God, no Christ in them, He is the root

It says the word fell on hard stony ground, thats an unregenerate hard heart, God gives a new heart in regeneration Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 

Lamb

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False, they were never saved, had no root and had hard hearts. It tells you that if you study the different soils Matt 13 20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Lk 8 13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Their believing was superficial and not the Gift of God, no Christ in them, He is the root

It says the word fell on hard stony ground, thats an unregenerate hard heart, God gives a new heart in regeneration Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Joy is a sign of faith received and the verse you quoted said this:
Thus many receive the Word with joy, but afterwards fall away again, Luke 8:13.

"fall away again"...that means they had faith.
 

brightfame52

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Joy is a sign of faith received and the verse you quoted said this:
Thus many receive the Word with joy, but afterwards fall away again, Luke 8:13.

"fall away again"...that means they had faith.
I took time to explain it to you, so you insist on depreciating Christs saving death, Christ death healed backsliding, they never depart from Him . I've showed you the scriptures already.
 

Lamb

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I took time to explain it to you, so you insist on depreciating Christs saving death, Christ death healed backsliding, they never depart from Him . I've showed you the scriptures already.

I haven't done anything of the sorts. I've explained to you how scriptures show that man can fall away from faith, and your scripture example even backs that up.
 

brightfame52

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I haven't done anything of the sorts. I've explained to you how scriptures show that man can fall away from faith, and your scripture example even backs that up.
Yes you have, those Christ died for and saved, cant fall away.
 

Faith

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Yes, He died for their sins but they refuse to believe it and damn themselves. They reject Him and His forgiveness/salvation.
I don’t think that everybody who’s atheist or agnostic is refusing to believe. I went through an atheist and agnostic period many years ago. I wasn’t choosing to not believe, I just didn’t at that time, even when I wanted to.
 

brightfame52

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I haven't done anything of the sorts. I've explained to you how scriptures show that man can fall away from faith, and your scripture example even backs that up.
You fail to understand that those who Christ died for are as a benefit given a new nature, a new birth, a new heart, and with such benefits they shall not fall away or depart Jer 32:38-40

38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

See the saved are saved by the blood of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20-21


20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And you disrespect the virtue of the Blood of the everlasting covenant, teaching that such a one who benefits from it, can fall away.
 

Lamb

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I don’t think that everybody who’s atheist or agnostic is refusing to believe. I went through an atheist and agnostic period many years ago. I wasn’t choosing to not believe, I just didn’t at that time, even when I wanted to.

We're born in a state of unbelief, unless a child in the womb receives faith by hearing God's word.
 

Frankj

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We're born in a state of unbelief, unless a child in the womb receives faith by hearing God's word.
That's something that merits further consideration, our personalities actually do begin forming before birth and are influenced by events from outside the womb that the child experiences while developing inside it.
 

Lamb

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That's something that merits further consideration, our personalities actually do begin forming before birth and are influenced by events from outside the womb that the child experiences while developing inside it.

Consider John the Baptist when Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus came near and John leaped for joy in his mother's womb.
 

Faith

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Consider John the Baptist when Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus came near and John leaped for joy in his mother's womb.
I love that Scripture.
 

brightfame52

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Give Repentance and Forgiveness of sins !

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

What does it mean to Give Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins here ? It means for Christ gives His People forgiveness or remission of sins, that is an Spiritual Application of it to the conscious, by giving s Spiritual Knowledge of it Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Now the Word give here in both is the greek word didōmi and means:


to give

2) to give something to someone

a) of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage

1) to bestow a gift

b) to grant, give to one asking, let have

c) to supply, furnish, necessary things

d) to give over, deliver

1) to reach out, extend, present

2) of a writing

3) to give over to one's care, intrust, commit

a) something to be administered

To administer something or to apply something ! So Christ gives by application or by applying Salvation and the Knowledge of Remission of sins.

Until it is made known to them so that so that they receive it by Faith, they are ignorant of it, or it is a Mystery ! However because of Covenant Engagement of Christ on their behalf, they always had an interest in Christ's Blood which is for their Remission of Sins Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness or remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

So receiving remission of sins in the time state by God given Faith is but receiving God's Act of Remission from Eternity ! 10
 

Lamb

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brightfame52

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Heb 10:14 Perfected !

What the death of Christ accomplished of its own merit for all those that He offered Himself in behalf of Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Knowing this Truth is very important especially in light of the modern day of blasphemy of many false teachers who tell us #1 That Christ's death or offering in and of itself saves no one, which is blasphemy 1 Pet 2:24 and those who say Christ's death in and of itself, without the work of the Spirit is worthless, another blasphemy !

We must however embrace what the scripture says about what Christ's death or offering did accomplish for those Christ died for in and of itself: And here in this context of Heb 10, we are told that it [His Death or offering] perfected forever those whom are sanctified, or as the greek may indicate, those who are in a state of sanctification !

Anyone Christ died for, by virtue of His Death, even though sinners by nature as others, are nevertheless born in this world already sanctified or set apart for the holy purposes of God, this is also True because of what it states a few verses ahead in the context in Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Here we are enlighten that it was also the death or offering of Christ that did sanctify those He died for once and for all, that was legal sanctification, which will in God's Time manifest itself into subjective sanctification, because all whom are legally sanctified by the blood of Christ or His Death, must also be given life by the Spirit, which is also Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

All of which is the fruit of Christ's death that perfected all for whom He died, so the follow up work of the Spirit is an evidence of the Great Worth and accomplishment of Christ's Death!

Also in the legal aspect alone of this perfection of Heb 10:14 is meant, that all for whom Christ died are made complete in Him, not in themselves Col 2:10

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Also it meant that not one sin of theirs has God not been propitiated for forever ! They are freed from sin forever by Christ's offering ! Rom 6:7

For he that is dead [died in Union with Christ] is freed from sin. Note: Christ could not have died for our sins if we were not in Union legally with Him !


This is a legal term, the word freed here is the greek word dikaioō:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

This offering was not for all in the World without exception, but is qualified to only those who are set apart or sanctified legally and then experimentally, and this perfect is True of all of God's Elect before its fruition or realization by the one perfected by Christ death, meaning, if Christ was to tarry another 25 years, and Elect are born physically into this world within those years as sinners and enemies by nature, they have been still legally perfected forever by Christ's death or Offering,and they are assured of being sanctified experimentally by the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13, solely because of Christ's Death alone perfecting them before God's law and Justice !
 

Lamb

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2 Corinthians 5:14-15 "For the love of Christ compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died".
 

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@Lamb



Thats false because its only partially true. Sure there are benefits the saved will receive in the future in the glorified state, but they received reconciliation[were reconciled to God] by His death in their unconverted state. Thats plainly stated Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Why is this benefit/blessing being overlooked, minimized or denied ?
Romans 5:10 does NOT say that we received God's reconciliation BEFORE we became believers. It says that God's reconciliation happened so that we could become God's friends instead of being his enemies. Salvation happens at the same time but will be completed at Jesus' second coming, when he will resurrect our bodies ("saved by his life").
 

brightfame52

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Romans 5:10 does NOT say that we received God's reconciliation BEFORE we became believers. It says that God's reconciliation happened so that we could become God's friends instead of being his enemies. Salvation happens at the same time but will be completed at Jesus' second coming, when he will resurrect our bodies ("saved by his life").
Yes it does, you cant see it.
 

BruceLeiter

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A good, biblical way to understand Christ's death is that it was sufficient to save everyone but only efficient in the lives of believers. Why he doesn't save everyone is the question. There must be a very good reason, but God has not revealed it in the Bible. It is one of many mysteries that we need to accept and not try to solve with our reason.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 

fuddy

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So if belief is something granted to men at Gods discretion, then those He does not grant it to are utterly beyond hope? Are they damned to hell simply because they happen to be unlucky? Of course not, that would be the act of a heartless psychopath, and God is not a psychopath. And yet scripture is clear that hope is declared to be open to all people.
So it remains a mystery.
What I find disturbing is why, if all of us are sincerely asking God what the truth here is, we're so contentious about this - His Spirit, our Counselor, teaches all things and gives wisdom to all who ask, without reproach. So why after 2000 years are we still at each others throats about it - why aren't we all automatically arriving at the same conclusion?
 
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