Jesus and Little John.

Lamb

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Imagine if that's how things worked in society.

"So, what laws did I break, Your Honor?"
"Well, technically, there are no laws that address your behavior, but I don't like it, so you better knock it off cause I tell you so, or else I'm gonna put you in jail."

The US does have copyright laws, which this site has chosen to follow. There is Fair Use, but it's limited.
 

tango

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The US does have copyright laws, which this site has chosen to follow. There is Fair Use, but it's limited.

Just an aside on copyright laws, if this Maria person really was literally writing out the words Jesus dictated to her it's a curious way to handle those words. Nothing says "freely you have received, freely give" quite like copyrighting the words Jesus allegedly entrusted to you.
 

Stephen

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If you had bothered to fact check, you would've found this:

Juridic Import of Subsequent Letters from Prelates
In the decades following the Index’s abrogation Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and Bishop Dionigi Tettamanzi wrote letters recalling that Valtorta’s work had been placed on the Index and reiterating the Index’s enduring moral value. Other prelates wrote letters in support of the work. We will now briefly examine the juridic import of these documents.

Letters of Ratzinger
Since the abrogation of the Index the CDF has never issued a notification or decree with regard to Valtorta’s writings. However, on January 31, 1985, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a private letter to Cardinal Siri on the subject.10 A priest from Cardinal Siri’s diocese had written the CDF asking the position of the Church’s Magisterium with regard to the Poem. Ratzinger responded by writing Siri, whom he invited to share the contents of the letter with the priest concerned. The brief letter recalled the Holy Office’s decree of December 16, 1959, the anonymous article printed in L’Osservatore Romano in 1960, and the CDF’s 1966 Notification on the enduring moral value of the Index. As was seen supra the Notification clarified that the decree of 1959 no longer has any juridic value and that the enduring moral value of the Index lies in it providing input to the conscience of each Catholic, who then has the role of discerning and deciding whether or not to read a work that had been on the Index.

Ratzinger then adds something new: that “the diffusion and recommendation of [a work such as the Poem] is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful.” This statement was not made in the form of a juridic act of the CDF—such as a decree or notification (nor therefore, a fortiori, could it be considered to be an authentic interpretation of the law. As a result this affirmation in the letter has no juridic weight.

On May 21, 1993 Bishop Raymond Boland of Birmingham Alabama, in a letter to Terry Colafrancesco, asserted that Cardinal Ratzinger had written to him on April 17, 1993 and had “asked me to inform you about the position of the Church” regarding the Poem. Boland asserted that the Cardinal wished to recall the items previously published in L’Osservatore Romano (presumably the decree of December 16, 1959, the accompanying anonymous article, and the Notification of November 15, 1966). He also asserted that the CDF had asked the Italian Bishops Conference to request of the publisher of the Poem that in any future edition “it might be clearly indicated from the very first page that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.”

The April 17 letter of Ratzinger was never made public. Even if it were made public, and if its language matched exactly that reported by Boland, Ratzinger’s letter would not have any juridic weight as its content does not contain a judicial sentence or an act of legislative or executive authority. It would rather be a letter relaying that the CDF had communicated with the Italian Bishops Conference and that this Conference communicated with the publisher of the Poem. Those communications would then need to be analyzed to determine their own juridic weight.

Current Juridic and Moral Value of the Index for the Poem of the Man-God
What then is the current juridic and moral value of the Index for the Poem of the Man-God? The Index no longer has the force of ecclesiastical law; therefore when one chooses to read, publish, or promote the Poem there is no violation of ecclesiastical law. The various letters issued by prelates in the decades following the abrogation of the Index on the subject of the Poem are not (with the exception of the imprimatur granted by Bishop Pakiam), juridically binding. Hence a Catholic is permitted to think and act in ways different from the opinions expressed therein. For example, a Catholic who believes the Poem to be of supernatural origin or promotes it as such is not being disobedient to Bishop Tettamanzi’s letter, for the letter has no juridic weight."

Source:

That the Index has been abolished does not suddenly mean that those books condemned by it are suddenly OK.


That article is an opinion piece which contains falsehoods. If you had bothered to fact check the information, you would've found this: Response to Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Maria Valtora's Poem
You condemn the EWTN article a opinion and then give an opinion by Fr. Mitch Pacwa !!!!!

As the article said "Her multi-volume work, The Poem of the Man-God , has been discredited by the Holy See on more than one occasion..."
Have you any evidence that the Holy See has retracted its condemnation?

I note you have no response to my post #15 which gives much details about the falsehoods in her writing.
 

Soulx3

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Just an aside on copyright laws, if this Maria person really was literally writing out the words Jesus dictated to her it's a curious way to handle those words. Nothing says "freely you have received, freely give" quite like copyrighting the words Jesus allegedly entrusted to you.

Maria Valtorta wasn't going to live forever, so Jesus had her entrust His words to the Order of the Servants of Mary.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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... except this isn't a public society, it's a privately owned venue even if in a digital form.

But to roll with what you're saying, how about you go into a privately owned venue and start acting in a way the owner considers unreasonable. You're going to be asked to leave, right? Even if the owner can't point to a specific rule on the door that you're breaking, they consider you to be acting unreasonably and ask you to leave. It's one of the perks of being the owner I guess.
That would still be illegal, and you could sue them for discrimination. If you haven't broken any laws or rules that have been publicly displayed within that private property and the owner kicks you out for acting in a way that they don't like despite it not violating the rules, you have a winning lawsuit on your hand.
 

Albion

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That the Index has been abolished does not suddenly mean that those books condemned by it are suddenly OK.
. . .which is exactly the position taken by the Catholic Church after the Index was abolished!
 

Soulx3

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Having looked up her books I don't see an Imprimatur or a Nihil obstat - not surprising if they have been condemned by the Vatican.
That the Index has been abolished does not suddenly mean that those books condemned by it are suddenly OK.

Maria Valtorta's writings weren't placed on the Index "for not being ok" in the first place, but rather because it lacks an Imprimatur. And, while the Index has since been abrogated, it retains its moral value meaning “the Index remains morally binding, in light of the demands of natural law, in so far as it admonishes the conscience of Christians to be on guard for those writings that can endanger faith and morals.” Hence any Catholic considering reading a book on the Index, whether it be John Stuart Mill’s Principles of Political Economy or The Poem of the Man-God, must judge, according to his conscience, whether or not the work would be nourishing for his soul or whether it would on the contrary present a proximate spiritual danger to his soul" and "[...] this discernment is the right and responsibility of each individual, and is not properly a canonical matter"

Current Juridic and Moral Value of the Index for the Poem of the Man-God
What then is the current juridic and moral value of the Index for the Poem of the Man-God? The Index no longer has the force of ecclesiastical law; therefore when one chooses to read, publish, or promote the Poem there is no violation of ecclesiastical law. The various letters issued by prelates in the decades following the abrogation of the Index on the subject of the Poem are not (with the exception of the imprimatur granted by Bishop Pakiam), juridically binding. Hence a Catholic is permitted to think and act in ways different from the opinions expressed therein. For example, a Catholic who believes the Poem to be of supernatural origin or promotes it as such is not being disobedient to Bishop Tettamanzi’s letter, for the letter has no juridic weight."

Source: https://www.valtorta.org.au/JCL-Thesis-on-the-Index-and-Valtorta.pdf

You condemn the EWTN article a opinion and then give an opinion by Fr. Mitch Pacwa !!!!!

I stated that Fr. Mitch Pacwa's article is an opinion piece that contains falsehoods. You didn't fact check the information in his article, but I and others have, such as Jonathan A. Baker: Response to Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Maria Valtora's Poem

As the article said "Her multi-volume work, The Poem of the Man-God , has been discredited by the Holy See on more than one occasion..."
Have you any evidence that the Holy See has retracted its condemnation?

The articles you cited mentions condemnation by the Holy Office not the Holy See, and I've already shown the official current position of the Catholic Church is that Catholics who read, publish, or promote the Poem are in no violation of ecclesiastical law.

I note you have no response to my post #15 which gives much details about the falsehoods in her writing.

Because I'm working on it right now.
 
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tango

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That would still be illegal, and you could sue them for discrimination. If you haven't broken any laws or rules that have been publicly displayed within that private property and the owner kicks you out for acting in a way that they don't like despite it not violating the rules, you have a winning lawsuit on your hand.

Commenting on laws only works if you specify a jurisdiction. Unless the issue related to a protected characteristic you'd struggle to gain any traction if you tried to sue over it in any of the areas I'm familiar with.

There's quite a difference between throwing someone out for being obnoxious and throwing someone out for being black or gay.
 

tango

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Maria Valtorta wasn't going to live forever, so Jesus had her entrust His words to the Order of the Servants of Mary.

... as opposed to just putting it in the public domain where anyone could read it without having to pay anything? Curious. Having had several centuries to figure out what he wanted to say I wonder why he didn't think of a better way of propagating his words. Perhaps since they were sufficiently unimportant they could wait the best part of two millennia they weren't important enough to propagate very far.
 

Soulx3

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... as opposed to just putting it in the public domain where anyone could read it without having to pay anything? Curious. Having had several centuries to figure out what he wanted to say I wonder why he didn't think of a better way of propagating his words. Perhaps since they were sufficiently unimportant they could wait the best part of two millennia they weren't important enough to propagate very far.

If you bothered to research Maria Valtorta, you'd know that Jesus spoke to Maria Valtorta in-depth about future publishing, ownership, etc., of His Work, and He never brought up money. Those who have chosen to sell Maria's writings for money are no different from the people who chose to sell the writings that make up The Bible, though all of it comes from God. And, if you really care about people reading them without having to pay, they can do so here. There's other websites in support of Maria Valtorta where people make her writings available to read for free as well.
 
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Soulx3

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As you'll find out below, you didn't bother to fact check your own source:

1. The Poem of the Man-God

This writing is a very long, claimed private revelation about the lives of Mary and Jesus. It covers much the same material as the writings and private revelations to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich (beatified by Pope John Paul II). However, what is said in the poem of the Man-God does not agree with the private revelations to Blessed Anne Catherine.

The Poem of the man-God was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books in 1959.

I already addressed this in po⁷st #27.

Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI, has indicated that he considers it a work of fiction.

I already addressed this in post #18.

The Poem of the Man-God:

  • claims that Anne and Joachim had no other child but the Virgin Mary.

    Anne: 'Also I have you. But I have not given you a child... I think I have distressed the Lord, because He has made my womb barren...' (http://www.valtorta.org/BookText/E01_01-10.htm)

    On the contrary, Scripture refers to Mary's sister (John 19:25). And Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich describes, at length and in a number of different passages, Mary's older sister.

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, Catherine Emmerich's writings were tampered with, and that very little truth remains in them.

  • Mary of Joseph's sister in Jn. 19:25 is Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas/Cleophas (Alphaeus), as proven to be the case in the opening post here.

The Poem of the Man-God:
On the contrary, the revelations to Blessed A. C. Emmerich explain that Mary was conceived miraculously and virginally, in a passageway at the foundation of the Temple of Jerusalem.

The month of the Immaculate Conception was November. See my book: Conte, Important Dates in the Lives of Jesus and Mary.

The Poem of the Man-God:

On the contrary, the birth of the Virgin Mary, as described by Blessed Emmerich, was virginal and miraculous, like the Birth of Jesus Christ, a birth befitting a perfect virgin. See also Conte, The Virginity of Jesus and Mary.

The Poem of the Man-God:
  • claims that the birth date of the Virgin Mary was August 24th.

On the contrary, the date given by the Virgin Mary herself at Medjugorje was August 5th.

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, Catherine Emmerich's writings were tampered with, and that very little truth remains in them.

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, Mary's conception occurred at "the end of December," not October: "Since the end of December I [Anne] have perceived that my womb was becoming new and bearing, as I say, a new branch. But now on that branch the fruit is certain... See? That linen is for the one that is coming." (The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I)

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, the birth of Mary was miraculous because (I) She was born of a barren woman, Anne, who despite not being a virgin was just, because of her chasteness in other ways, and she conceived and delivered naturally, but without pain.

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, Mary was born of Her mother in September, not August. The date of August 5th given by Mary to Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo, one of the visionaries in Medjugorje, which She called "my real birth date," refers to the actual date of Her Assumption into Heaven.

The Poem of the Man-God:


On the contrary, Blessed Emmerich states that Joseph was much older, about 30 years older than the Virgin Mary (who was about 14 years of age). Also, tradition generally understands St. Joseph to have been many years older than the Virgin Mary.

  • According to Jesus, through His spokesperson Maria Valtorta, Catherine Emmerich's writings were tampered with, and that very little truth remains in them.

  • If it's understood within Catholic Tradition that Joseph was "many years older" than Mary at the time of their wedding, then it isn't contrary to Maria Valtorta's description of him at the time saying, "He must be thirty-five years old at most," when Mary was fifteen years old.

I'll pause here for a moment and ask, do you want to take over fact checking your own source? Or, do you want me to continue doing your work for you?
 
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tango

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If you bothered to research Maria Valtorta, you'd know that Jesus spoke to Maria Valtorta in-depth about future publishing, ownership, etc., of His Work, and He never brought up money. Those who have chosen to sell Maria's writings for money are no different from the people who chose to sell the writings that make up The Bible, though all of it comes from God. And, if you really care about people reading them without having to pay, they can do so here. There's other websites in support of Maria Valtorta where people make her writings available to read for free as well.

I see, so I'm supposed to accept the word of a random person on the internet that this Maria person is a real bona-fide prophet, then go and research her myself, draw the same conclusions you have drawn, all with no reason to believe a word of it and when the person on the internet can't even put together a coherent argument supporting it? Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Soulx3

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I see, so I'm supposed to accept the word of a random person on the internet that this Maria person is a real bona-fide prophet,...

I never said that.

then go and research her myself, and draw the same conclusions you have drawn, all with no reason to believe a word of it, and when the person on the internet can't even put together a coherent argument supporting it?

Yea, you should research her thoroughly, because it's important to research something before giving your opinion about it one way or the other. If you do research her, I never told you what to conclude, and while I think there's plenty of reasons to believe it if you do research, you may not agree or want to believe, and if you don't, that in and of itself doesn't prove that Maria Valtorta wasn't a spokesperson of Jesus.
 
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Stephen

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Maria Valtorta's writings weren't placed on the Index "for not being ok" in the first place, but rather because it lacks an Imprimatur.
That's ridiculous. There are millions of books in the world that do not have an imprimatur. They were never on the Index.

Note the the full title:
"Index Librorum Prohibitorum (English: Index of Forbidden Books) was a changing list of publications deemed heretical or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index (a former Dicastery of the Roman Curia); Catholics were forbidden to print or read them, subject to the local bishop.[1] Catholic states could enact laws to adapt or adopt the list and enforce it." (Wikipedia)
Index Librorum Prohibitorum - Wikipedia

Maria Valtorta is just one of dozens of false "mystics" who claim to have received revelations from Jesus, Mary or various Saints in heaven.
For the sake of your immortal soul keep to what the Catholic Church officially teaches.
 

Soulx3

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That's ridiculous.

No, it's not, so either you didn't read, or you didn't understand what I sent about why it was placed on the Index.

Maria Valtorta is just one of dozens of false "mystics" who claim to have received revelations from Jesus, Mary or various Saints in heaven.

You speak as if you've read Maria Valtorta's writings, and the proffessors, doctors, etc., who actually have read about her, and studied her writings in-depth, didn't even conclude what you have.

For the sake of your immortal soul keep to what the Catholic Church officially teaches.

Actually, as shown in a previous post, the Catholic Church's current position is Catholics are free to choose whether Maria Valtorta's writings would be nourishing, or whether it would on the contrary present a proximate spiritual danger to his or her own soul, and that to read, publish, or promote the writings of Maria Valtorta is in no violation of ecclesiastical law.
 
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Stephen

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No, it's not, so either you didn't read, or you didn't understand what I sent about why it was placed on the Index.

You claimed it was placed on the index because it did not have an imprimatur.
That is was placed on the index was because, as I quoted,it was "deemed heretical or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index" not because it did not have an imprimatur.

You speak as if you've read Maria Valtorta's writings, and the proffessors, doctors, etc., who actually have read about her, and studied her writings in-depth, didn't even conclude what you have.

I believe what the Church teaches and it has been discredited by Rome.

Actually, as shown in a previous post, the Catholic Church's current position is Catholics are free to choose whether Maria Valtorta's writings would be nourishing, or whether it would on the contrary present a proximate spiritual danger to his or her own soul, and that to read, publish, or promote the writings of Maria Valtorta is in no violation of ecclesiastical law.

I will pray for you to keep to approved teaching.

If you want to believe her falsehood, so be it.
 
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