Once Saved, Always Saved

[Jazzy]

Does the Bible teach “Once Saved, Always Saved”?

 

[Lamb]

No, because the bible teaches that man can fall away and reject God. (Luke 8:13; 1 Corinthians 10:12; Galatians 5:4; 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:17).

 

[Josiah]

"Once Saved Always Saved" The "P" of TULIP and a Distinctive of Calvinism


Here is a LUTHERAN response on this.....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

All this is true.


Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

All this is true.


For LUTHERANS, this is a Law/Gospel issue. And we believe we are not to twist, confuse, blend or merge one with the other - but rather make a "proper distinction" and "proper application" of each. It's not about embracing one and rejecting the other or subjecting one set to the other. Both are fully and equally true.



Lutherans often approach theology with...

1. A deep humility, a willing embrace of MYSTERY, a willingness to embrace that what is is what is, an unwillingness to "connect the dots" and force them to "fit together" in conformity with the theories, opinions, thoughts, philosophies and theories of self.

2. "Pastoral" glasses. Luther was, above all, a PASTOR. Luther tended to evaluate everything from the standpoint of what he'd say to the church member in my office - struggling with something in his life and heart. I think Calvinism tends to run everything through "Logic" glasses. The result can be quite different.



For Lutherans, it's all in the application....

Joe comes to his pastor OVERWHELMED with a profound sense of his sinfulness, his unworthiness, his lack of deserving ANYTHING but eternity in hell. He looks at the Law and is (rightly) CRUSHED with it. He notes his lack of understanding of the things of God, his lack of pure piety, his lack of loving others as God loved him.... he admits he is sometimes pleagued with doubts that annoy him.... he fears he has let go of God's loving hand! He fears that on his deathbed, he may be in the grips of doubt and fear! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Gospel.... he needs to hear and know the Gospel... THAT is the context of all those Gospel verses!!!!

Jim comes to his pastor explaining why he's never in church, never receives the Sacrament, could care less about right living, and beats his wife nightly. Why it matters not that he has denounced his Christian faith. Why? Because he was Baptized, he was Confirmed, heck - once upon a time, a long, long time ago, he was a Christian and so was saved! And God never renigs on His promises.... God never lets go of our hands.... God really gets off on forgiving us so why not give Him more joy by sinning against Him more? God HAS to welcome Him into heaven cuz once upon a time, he had faith! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Law..... he needs to hear the Law..... THAT is the context of these Law passages.

The Lutheran approach is pastoral (rather than logical or dogmatic).... let the Gospel be the Gospel, and let it do what it is intended to do. And let the Law be the Law, and let it do what it is intended to do.



Pax Christi


- Josiah



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[Albion]

Jim comes to his pastor explaining why he's never in church, never receives the Sacrament, could care less about right living, and beats his wife nightly. Why it matters not that he has denounced his Christian faith. Why? Because he was Baptized, he was Confirmed, heck - once upon a time, a long, long time ago, he was a Christian and so was saved! And God never renigs on His promises.... God never lets go of our hands.... God really gets off on forgiving us so why not give Him more joy by sinning against Him more? God HAS to welcome Him into heaven cuz once upon a time, he had faith! What is the pastor to say? Lutherans would note the Law..... he needs to hear the Law..... THAT is the context of these Law passages.

The Lutheran approach is pastoral (rather than logical or dogmatic).... let the Gospel be the Gospel, and let it do what it is intended to do. And let the Law be the Law, and let it do what it is intended to do.

I think that the response of many Christians would be that Jim, as shown by his attitude and actions, quite obviously has not been given saving Faith. Therefore, nothing is proven about the point, one way or the other.

That is the main theme of the Epistle of James--that Faith is not something that can simply be claimed and that's all that's needed.

 

[Lees]

Does the Bible teach “Once Saved, Always Saved”?

The phrase 'once saved, always saved' is something used by Christians but not stated that way in Scripture.

I know what they mean, but they need to say what they mean. The term 'salvation' involves various periods of the Christians life. At times the Christian is not saved in that he is not being saved from a sinful life and those things which are destroying his walk with God. But, that doesn't mean he has lost eternal life.

Some things must be considered if one believes the Christian, one who has eternal life, can lose eternal life.

1.) (Rom. 8:28-30) In these verses you will see God is in control of the eternal life of the believer. He foreknew us, predestinated us, called us, and justified us, and glorified us. These are all finished works of God on behalf of the believer. And being glorified is yet future when we obtain our resurrected bodies and stand in the presence of God.

Again, these are 'finished' works of God. How then can the believer upset the finished work of God?

2.) How much say did you have in being born into this earthly life? Answer: None. God didn't consult you or me. If we had no say being born into this earthly life, why do we think we have much say being born-again into eternal life? Remember, God foreknew us. (Rom. 8:29)

Did God know what He was getting when He saved us? When He gave us eternal life? Of course He did. Yet He saved us and gave us eternal life anyway. Why would God change His mind about my eternal life when He always knew what He was getting? He wouldn't.

3.) Since eternal life is based upon the imputed righteousness of Christ to us, due to our faith in Christ which is God given, how can you lose that which is imputed to you? Does your good works improve on the imputed righteousness of Christ? Does your sins and bad works take away from the imputed righteousness of Christ?

You see? The only righteousness any believer stands in is the imputed righteousness of Christ. And nothing you or I can do can touch it, improve upon it, or take away from it. It's not ours to maintain.

Some things to consider.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

I think that the response of many Christians would be that Jim, as shown by his attitude and actions, quite obviously has not been given saving Faith. Therefore, nothing is proven about the point, one way or the other.

Therein lies one of the horrors of the latter-day Calvinist invention of OSAS.

Using the example of "Jim" here, perhaps for decades he sincerely said (and believed) he had faith... he believed and gave evidence of that, but now it SEEMS that your theory might be true, he doesn't believe and therefore (in OSAS) - he NEVER believed. So, how do we know if one is saved? How does self know that self is saved? In OSAS, there is no way for anyone (including self) to know if they are saved since there's no way to know if faith is present... having faith is irrelevant because if it SEEMS at some later point that faith is not present, then it NEVER could have been present. This is why these Calvinists constantly talk about "GENUINE faith" and the quality of faith... creating what some have called "a terror of conscience". And destroys the Gospel verses I quote and regard the Law verses as simply wrong.

OSAS is an extreme "logical construct" that simply is contrary to Scripture and creates a whole lot more problems than it solves. It seems best to stick with what Scripture says (and accept what it does not) and with over 1500 years of Christian belief.



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[Albion]

Therein lies one of the horrors of the latter-day Calvinist invention of OSAS.

Using the example of "Jim" here, perhaps for decades he sincerely said (and believed) he had faith... he believed and gave evidence of that, but now it SEEMS that your theory might be true, he doesn't believe and therefore (in OSAS) - he NEVER believed. So, how do we know if one is saved? How does self know that self is saved? In OSAS, there is no way for anyone (including self) to know if they are saved since there's no way to know if faith is present...

True...but it is not hard to identify certain people who DO NOT have saving Faith. In the case of "Jim," we have a person who willingly lives a non-Christian life while claiming that he's born again, etc. If he really did have Faith, he would not hold to the POV that "I can do anything I want," even in defiance of what Christ taught while also claiming to have been saved.

If we turn to the status of other people, those who try to live a more Christian lifestyle, even while falling to temptation on occasion, the situation is quite different. However, it was "Jim" that was described and about whom I commented there.

having faith is irrelevant because if it SEEMS at some later point that faith is not present, then it NEVER could have been present. This is why these Calvinists constantly talk about "GENUINE faith" and the quality of faith...

I don't quite follow this, and that's because this is not a view that's unique to Calvinists. It's also exactly what James was arguing in his Epistle--we cannot have Faith, despite claims to the contrary, if we have not experienced a real conversion. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

[tango]

Therein lies one of the horrors of the latter-day Calvinist invention of OSAS.

Using the example of "Jim" here, perhaps for decades he sincerely said (and believed) he had faith... he believed and gave evidence of that, but now it SEEMS that your theory might be true, he doesn't believe and therefore (in OSAS) - he NEVER believed. So, how do we know if one is saved? How does self know that self is saved? In OSAS, there is no way for anyone (including self) to know if they are saved since there's no way to know if faith is present... having faith is irrelevant because if it SEEMS at some later point that faith is not present, then it NEVER could have been present. This is why these Calvinists constantly talk about "GENUINE faith" and the quality of faith... creating what some have called "a terror of conscience". And destroys the Gospel verses I quote and regard the Law verses as simply wrong.

OSAS is an extreme "logical construct" that simply is contrary to Scripture and creates a whole lot more problems than it solves. It seems best to stick with what Scripture says (and accept what it does not) and with over 1500 years of Christian belief.

The idea that a change of mind means someone never believed what they once clearly believed really makes no sense at all. As you say, the "terror of conscience".

When I was a child I believed in Father Christmas, as I suspect most children once did. As an adult I no longer believe in Father Christmas, but to say my current lack of belief in Father Christmas means I never believed in Father Christmas is clearly absurd. As a child I would excitedly put out a mince pie and a glass of wine for Father Christmas, and even put out a carrot for the reindeer, before going to bed on Christmas Eve. Come Christmas morning my faith was verified, as Father Christmas had eaten the mince pie and drunk the glass of wine, and the reindeer had eaten the carrot. To borrow from James, my faith was verified by my works.

I'm sure nobody will be surprised when I say I no longer leave a mince pie or a glass of wine out for Father Christmas. We could still say my faith is verified by my works - as an adult I know the reality about Santa and my actions reflect that.

If it is true that the person who once believed that Jesus saves and who, for whatever reason, no longer believes could therefore never have believed, why is the reverse not true? If the default position is that we do not believe in salvation by faith, when someone comes to faith why do we not argue that they could never have believed anything else? So the person who turned away from their former life to follow Jesus never believed in their former religion, or they never believed that there is no God.

As you say, it's absurd.

 

[Josiah]

True...but it is not hard to identify certain people who DO NOT have saving Faith.

PERHAPS. But how does that prove they NEVER believed? After all, in OSAS, if they EVER believed, they ALWAYS will believe. So, if Jim now does not believe, as you assume is the case, then for OSAS to be right, he NEVER believed.... even if you and Jim and everyone else THOUGHT he did. Therein lies just one of the problems with this latter-day Calvinist invention. That and it's unbiblical and contrary to over 1500 years of Christian belief.




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[Albion]

PERHAPS. But how does that prove they NEVER believed? After all, in OSAS, if they EVER believed, they ALWAYS will believe.

I suppose that their answer would be that he never did believe, not even if he seemed by his external behavior to be a disciple prior to "Jim's" later lifestyle and attitude as you described it.

So, if Jim now does not believe, as you assume is the case, then for OSAS to be right, he NEVER believed.

Indeed.

...even if you and Jim and everyone else THOUGHT he did.

Right.

Therein lies just one of the problems with this latter-day Calvinist invention.

I don't see the problem. At the same time, this doesn't mean that I'm a fan of Calvinism. It's just that there's nothing impossible or even peculiar about this way of looking at the particular issue we're discussing.

 

[Albion]

The idea that a change of mind means someone never believed what they once clearly believed really makes no sense at all. As you say, the "terror of conscience".

"Doesn't make sense at all"...IF you presume that a conversion experience is merely a personal commitment that's little different from deciding which car to buy or which candidate to vote for.

Those decisions are not a matter of a divine plan, and the presumption (which is not confined to the dreaded Calvinists) that the gift of Faith is more than that makes sense and is Biblical.

It's a move of the Holy Spirit. For us then to then talk as though coming to Faith is nothing more than us deciding which denomination to join is IMHO a mistake.

When I was a child I believed in Father Christmas, as I suspect most children once did. As an adult I no longer believe in Father Christmas, but to say my current lack of belief in Father Christmas means I never believed in Father Christmas is clearly absurd.

Agreed. I think we need to stick to discussing Saving Faith, however.

 

[Josiah]

I don't see the problem.

1. It's unbiblical.

2. It's against over 1500 years of Christian faith.

3. It means the OBJECT of faith (Christ) is irrelevant, what matters is the GENUINENESS of faith, if it is sufficient in quality and quantity.

4. It's a "terror of the conscience" and means no one CAN know if their faith means a thing. Let me illustrate:


Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems 100% sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob is a model youth ... showing forth in every possible way that he is a fine Christian young man. Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that" "I repudiate Christianity."

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, GENUINE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic but it was all a lie). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line:

So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or heaven-bound, whether he ever had faith that matters. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writing all those anti-Christian books, not now. And fundamental to this "terror" is that it's not an issue of the OBJECT of faith but the QUALITY of faith, it's shifted from something in Christ to something in self, whether Bob has REAL faith, GENUINE faith - regardless of what he sincerely things, believes (because key to this is that people lie to themselves - however sincerely).

Here again, Calvinists would be better to just leave well enough alone...... let Gospel be Gospel, let Law be Law.... not "over think" this and try to correct what they think is a biblical error?



All this said, AGAIN (this is important) it is freely and universally acknowledged that no Calvinist INTENDS this or applies this in this way. It just seems unavoidable given this dogma.


Pax Christi



-Josiah


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[Albion]

1. It's unbiblical.

Well, that's debatable.

2. It's against over 1500 years of Christian faith.

So are a lot of other things we reject as unbiblical.

3. It means the OBJECT of faith (Christ) is irrelevant,

How can accepting/believing in Christ as one's Lord and Savior be irrelevant?

4. It's a "terror of the conscience" and means no one CAN know if their faith means a thing. Let me illustrate:


Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems 100% sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob is a model youth ... showing forth in every possible way that he is a fine Christian young man. Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that" "I repudiate Christianity."

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, GENUINE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away."

I don't see why we have to say that Bob lied in this case. But everything you described about his early years could easily be--and in many that we are aware of actually IS--just a superficial commitment made because of family ties or the like.

None of that "I went to church regularly" stuff is thought by any of our theologians to be sure-fire proofs of real Faith. And why do Christians in general say that just going through the motions, even with the best of intentions, doesn't amount to real Faith, but rather that it is necessary at some time in life to have a genuine conversion experience?

Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now.

What difference does it make how these observers evaluate--or guess at--Bob's standing with God?

 

[Lees]

The 'once saved always saved' is about one who 'does' have eternal life.

It's not about one who goes to church but really never believed.

The true faith in Christ is already assumed.

So, can one who truly was saved, had eternal life, have that taken away by God? My answer is no.

Lees

 

[tango]

"Doesn't make sense at all"...IF you presume that a conversion experience is merely a personal commitment that's little different from deciding which car to buy or which candidate to vote for.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I may conclude that Toyotas are better than Chevys and buy a Toyota without concluding that Chevys have no value at all and are worth nothing compared to the chance to own a Toyota. Maybe I bought a Toyota because the dealer offered me a package I couldn't refuse, while the Chevy dealer had a line of buyers and didn't feel the need to work with me.

Likewise if I write my little X in the (R) or the (D) box it doesn't mean I absolutely support my preferred candidate 100% and consider the opposing candidate to have nothing useful to offer. It merely means that, on balance, I consider one candidate to more closely represent my views as they are now than the other candidate.

Those decisions are not a matter of a divine plan, and the presumption (which is not confined to the dreaded Calvinists) that the gift of Faith is more than that makes sense and is Biblical.

I don't imagine God cares whether I drive a Chevy or a Toyota. But then the comparison between vehicles is very different to the decision whether to accept a gift from God.

It's a move of the Holy Spirit. For us then to then talk as though coming to Faith is nothing more than us deciding which denomination to join is IMHO a mistake.

If we talk as if we have precisely zero part to play in the process then this makes more sense. If we have to at least respond to the move of the Spirit then whether we respond or not is a decision we have to take.

Agreed. I think we need to stick to discussing Saving Faith, however.

Analogies are often useful when discussing, no?

 

[tango]

(post cut for brevity)

All this said, AGAIN (this is important) it is freely and universally acknowledged that no Calvinist INTENDS this or applies this in this way. It just seems unavoidable given this dogma.


Pax Christi

-Josiah

I know this isn't the topic of the current thread but, since we've mentioned a related topic in other threads, I'm struggling to see how you reconcile what you're posting here with what you've said in other threads about salvation itself.

Unless I've misunderstood your position you believe that Jesus does absolutely everything and we do absolutely nothing. We don't respond to a call, we are merely lifted out of a metaphorical spiritual mire and cleaned up, based on nothing more than that God chose us. No sense that God calls, we respond and are then cleaned up, we do absolutely nothing. To borrow from The Matrix, we don't even choose the right colored pill, the correct one is simply forced down our throat.

If this scenario is true, how does it protect us from the terror you describe elsewhere in this post? How would we know if we have been lifted out of the mire and cleaned up? At no point during your hypothetical Bob's life can he have any certainty at all whether he is eternally secure or eternally damned. The spirit within that cries out "Abba, Father" may be nothing more than a hoax from his perspective. If Bob never played even the smallest part in responding to God's calling, perhaps he was never called and believed a hoax for the times he said Christianity was true? Or perhaps it's true but not for him, because he wasn't one of the select few?

If the process requires us to at least acknowledge that we need Jesus, to respond in some way (however small) to God calling, we can at least have some assurance that we are saved at any given moment in our life regardless of whether we accept the possibility we might one day turn away from it all.

 

[Albion]

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I may conclude that Toyotas are better than Chevys and buy a Toyota without concluding that Chevys have no value at all and are worth nothing compared to the chance to own a Toyota. Maybe I bought a Toyota because the dealer offered me a package I couldn't refuse, while the Chevy dealer had a line of buyers and didn't feel the need to work with me.

Likewise if I write my little X in the (R) or the (D) box it doesn't mean I absolutely support my preferred candidate 100% and consider the opposing candidate to have nothing useful to offer. It merely means that, on balance, I consider one candidate to more closely represent my views as they are now than the other candidate.

Well, the point there was just that those are decisions made purely by us, and made for whatever reason that's sufficient in our judgment. It's a mistake to make real conversion and Faith be thought of as another choice the individual makes on his own without any action on the part of God.

 

[Josiah]

How can accepting/believing in Christ as one's Lord and Savior be irrelevant?

In OSAS, the issue is not whether faith is in Christ but if it is GENUINE.

sure-fire proofs of real Faith

There's the problem. In orthodox theology, salvic faith is faith in the Savior - it's the OBJECT of faith that matters. But yes, you're giving the OSAS perspective, their the issue is not the object of faith but whether that faith is "REAL" ("genuine is more often the word they use). Real, genuine, authentic, sufficient. And yeah, they tend to look for PROOF of that and of course, there is no objective proof for that. One of the many problems with OSAS.

But we can return to the issue that faith has an object... and it's the OBJECT that render faith salvic; faith the size of a mustard seed.... faith in the midst of "lord I believe, help thou my unbelief" is salvic when the OBJECT is Christ. Can a person determine if they are trusting/relying on Christ? Yes. Just as they can know that they are trusting in a doctor or airplane or brakes of their car. The OBJECT is perfect, we can prove He is genuine (look to Easter),

And why do Christians in general say that it is necessary at some time in life to have a genuine conversion experience?

Because they are wrong. LOL.

What difference does it make how these observers evaluate--or guess at--Bob's standing with God?

I would not want to go through life having no clue if God loves me, if Christ died for me, if my faith in Christ means a thing. The Bible states that it was written so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life.... not freat that my faith my not be real enough, genuine enough, sufficiently provable in its saving ability.



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[Josiah]

How would we know if we have been lifted out of the mire

Faith. Where there is faith in Christ, there is salvation.

At no point during your hypothetical Bob's life can he have any certainty at all whether he is eternally secure or eternally damned.

In OSAS, that's true.

But we CAN know...

If the process requires us to at least acknowledge that we need Jesus, to respond in some way (however small) to God calling, we can at least have some assurance that we are saved at any given moment in our life regardless of whether we accept the possibility we might one day turn away from it all.

I think the exact opposite is the case. IF all eternity depends on some feeling in ME, how do I know that feeling was correct or even from me? I recall reading the story of a guy who gave his big CONVERSION, "I DECIDED FOR JESUS" story (all centered on what he did for God, how he did what means he's now going to heaven, saved by his decision)... and then added, "but this very cute girl prayed that I'd do that, so I did." So, did he "decide" for Jesus at all? Was it the Holy Spirit or hormones, LOL?

I have faith in Christ. The OBJECT is why I'm saved (because he's the Savior, not me; and He rose from the dead - he's a 100% certainty) and I have faith in that Savior which is how His work is applied/apprehended by me - not by my head knowledge or emotional feelings or some deed I do that God rewards with heaven. We can "argue" about whether we create faith and give it to self OR if the Bible is right and it's the "free gift of God" but either way, faith is what tells me (and others) that I'm saved.

Can I destory the gift of faith? So, it seems (see all the Law passages in post 3. Consider physical life... that too is the free gift of God. It doesn't result from the knowledge, decisions or works of the one not yet alive; God GIVES it. But can they commit suicide? Can they destroy that gift? Yup. Does this mean God is unfaithful? No. Does it mean we can be unfaithful? Yes.



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[Lees]

Faith. Where there is faith in Christ, there is salvation.





In OSAS, that's true.

But we CAN know...




I think the exact opposite is the case. IF all eternity depends on some feeling in ME, how do I know that feeling was correct or even from me? I recall reading the story of a guy who gave his big CONVERSION, "I DECIDED FOR JESUS" story (all centered on what he did for God, how he did what means he's now going to heaven, saved by his decision)... and then added, "but this very cute girl prayed that I'd do that, so I did." So, did he "decide" for Jesus at all? Was it the Holy Spirit or hormones, LOL?

I have faith in Christ. The OBJECT is why I'm saved (because he's the Savior, not me; and He rose from the dead - he's a 100% certainty) and I have faith in that Savior which is how His work is applied/apprehended by me - not by my head knowledge or emotional feelings or some deed I do that God rewards with heaven. We can "argue" about whether we create faith and give it to self OR if the Bible is right and it's the "free gift of God" but either way, faith is what tells me (and others) that I'm saved.

Can I destory the gift of faith? So, it seems (see all the Law passages in post 3. Consider physical life... that too is the free gift of God. It doesn't result from the knowledge, decisions or works of the one not yet alive; God GIVES it. But can they commit suicide? Can they destroy that gift? Yup. Does this mean God is unfaithful? No. Does it mean we can be unfaithful? Yes.



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Our eternal life with God and Christ depends upon our faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour. Our feelings will play no role as they will always be up and down. Again, the phrase 'once saved always saved' means one already has eternal life due to his faith in Christ. It's not about questioning his faith as to whether it's real or not.

So, are you saying that one who truly did believe and was born-again, received eternal life, can lose that and go to hell?

Lees