Once Saved, Always Saved

[Lamb]

So, can one who truly was saved, had eternal life, have that taken away by God? My answer is no.

The bible never says that God will take away salvation. BUT the Bible DOES say that Man can reject God and His gift of faith and walk away. That's why Lutherans reject Once Saved, Never Saved.

 

[Josiah]

So, are you saying that one who truly did believe and was born-again, received eternal life, can lose that and go to hell?

@Lees


1. I don't accept that there are two divine gifts of faith in Christ as Savior - true and false. There are false OBJECTS of faith (Buddha, The Democrat Party, self....), yes, but trusting/relying is trusting and relying.


2. What do you think these Scriptures state?

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

None 0f these verses makes any sense at all if OSAS is true and one has salvation apart from faith or that once one has faith, they ALWAYS have faith and that it's impossible to fall away, impossible to not continue in faith, that one does not need to remain faithful since faith at any point saves.

the phrase 'once saved always saved' means one already has eternal life due to his faith in Christ.

No. The doctrine is that if one EVER has "genuine, real, authentic, true, sufficient" faith then they are saved.... that the above Scriptures are not technically true since faith AT ANY POINT in one's life - however short lived, IF truly, really, absolutely genuine and authentic, of sufficient quality and quantity - then that one is forever saved, no matter what. Those Scriptures are not actually true since it is IMPOSSIBLE to not be faithful unto death, IMPOSSIBLE to fall away from grace, IMPOSSIBLE to abandon the faith - the Scriptures are wrong or at least mean the opposite of what they state. Traditional Christianity holds that where there is the divine gift of faith in the Savior, there is salvation. I embrace that view.



.

 

[Lees]

@Lees


1. I don't accept that there are two divine gifts of faith in Christ as Savior - true and false. There are false OBJECTS of faith (Buddha, The Democrat Party, self....), yes, but trusting/relying is trusting and relying.


2. What do you think these Scriptures state?

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

None 0f these verses makes any sense at all if OSAS is true and one has salvation apart from faith or that once one has faith, they ALWAYS have faith and that it's impossible to fall away, impossible to not continue in faith, that one does not need to remain faithful since faith at any point saves.





No. The doctrine is that if one EVER has "genuine, real, authentic, true, sufficient" faith then they are saved.... that the above Scriptures are not technically true since faith AT ANY POINT in one's life - however short lived, IF truly, really, absolutely genuine and authentic, of sufficient quality and quantity - then that one is forever saved, no matter what. Those Scriptures are not actually true since it is IMPOSSIBLE to not be faithful unto death, IMPOSSIBLE to fall away from grace, IMPOSSIBLE to abandon the faith - the Scriptures are wrong or at least mean the opposite of what they state. Traditional Christianity holds that where there is the divine gift of faith in the Savior, there is salvation. I embrace that view.

You avoided the question. It's quite simple.

Do you believe one who places faith in Jesus Christ, is born again, receives eternal life, can lose that salvation, lose that eternal life, and go to hell?

Lees

 

[tango]

Faith. Where there is faith in Christ, there is salvation.

I think the problem here is that in the OSAS situations you described there's no way of knowing whether the faith is even real. In the other threads where we've discussed the process of salvation, unless I misunderstand your position there's no way of knowing whether that faith comes from within or from without, and thereby no way of knowing whether it's real.

I think the exact opposite is the case. IF all eternity depends on some feeling in ME, how do I know that feeling was correct or even from me? I recall reading the story of a guy who gave his big CONVERSION, "I DECIDED FOR JESUS" story (all centered on what he did for God, how he did what means he's now going to heaven, saved by his decision)... and then added, "but this very cute girl prayed that I'd do that, so I did." So, did he "decide" for Jesus at all? Was it the Holy Spirit or hormones, LOL?

Respectfully, I think this trivialises the entire question. The person who prays a prayer because a pretty girl encouraged him to do it probably knows that his brain wasn't doing the thinking at the time. If he's making it all about what he did for God he's missing the point entirely. To reuse the analogy from other threads, if I'm drowning in debt and about to have my house and car repossessed and someone like Bill Gates shows up waving his checkbook and offering to not only pay off all my overdue debts but also clear my outstanding mortgage and car loan, it's not like I'm doing him a favor by accepting his offer. He's the one making the gift, he's the one writing the check, he's the one paying everything off, and all I do is say "yes please".

It's not about "some feeling in me", it's about a conscious decision that I need someone or something external to myself (in this specific case, that external someone is obviously Jesus Christ). If it's not a decision that I make to respond to something, how would I know if something has been done? The good works James describes as evidence of our faith might be because I have been given something without my consent or even my knowledge but they might also be just because I figure it might be a good thing to help those less fortunate because, you know, karma and all that.

I have faith in Christ. The OBJECT is why I'm saved (because he's the Savior, not me; and He rose from the dead - he's a 100% certainty) and I have faith in that Savior which is how His work is applied/apprehended by me - not by my head knowledge or emotional feelings or some deed I do that God rewards with heaven. We can "argue" about whether we create faith and give it to self OR if the Bible is right and it's the "free gift of God" but either way, faith is what tells me (and others) that I'm saved.

The bolded part is, I think, the crux of this. I don't think people are saying we create faith and to be honest the idea that "we can argue (some position) or whether the Bible is right" is loaded language that inherently puts one opinion at odds with Scripture when the point of the discussion is to determine whether that opinion is actually at odds with Scripture.

I don't see how we can create faith and give it to ourselves, although rational thought might come to a conclusion that we then believe. If something is a free gift from God that doesn't preclude the idea that we have to take some step, however small, to accept the free gift. Which leads on to...

Can I destory the gift of faith? So, it seems (see all the Law passages in post 3. Consider physical life... that too is the free gift of God. It doesn't result from the knowledge, decisions or works of the one not yet alive; God GIVES it. But can they commit suicide? Can they destroy that gift? Yup. Does this mean God is unfaithful? No. Does it mean we can be unfaithful? Yes.

It certainly does seem we can destroy this gift, or at least refuse to respond to it. Physical life can be used as an analogy up to a point - we don't get a say in whether we are born but can decide to end our own lives if we so choose. That said if we do end our own lives we can't change our mind later and decide to come back. In a spiritual sense how would you liken this to a situation like the prodigal son who left home with his inheritance and then subsequently made the decision to return to his father?

I see encouragement in Scripture's words that nobody can pluck us from God's hand, although I don't see anything that supports the idea that we cannot walk away ourselves. The warning in Revelation to the church in Ephesus that "If you do not repent I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place" suggests that we can walk away.

I'm not sure that either of our positions requires that God be unfaithful.

 

[Josiah]

Do you believe one who places faith in Jesus Christ, is born again, receives eternal life, can lose that salvation, lose that eternal life, and go to hell?

Lees, see post 22.

It's answered, complete with many Scriptures, notations as to the historic/orthodox view and my affirmation that God NEVER gives saving faith in anyone or anything other than Jesus so the whole OSAS insistence that God's gift of faith is often unauthentic, untrue, insufficient and misguided is, well, a point I don't accept.


.

 

[Josiah]

I think the problem here is that in the OSAS situations you described there's no way of knowing whether the faith is even real.

@tango


IMO, you're correct. Foundational to the whole OSAS doctrine is that the divine gift of faith in Jesus as the Savior may or may not be authentic, real, true, and sufficiently genuine. Their whole point is whether our faith in Christ as Savior is sufficiently genuine, authentic, true, real... and in adequate quantity. Their point is IF (and I think that word is key)... IF such faith IS sufficient in quanity and quality.... THEN it saves, even if it disappears. This is problematic not only because it contradicts a BUNCH of Scriptures but it makes the whole point the quality of our faith rather than the quality of Jesus.

The traditional/orthodox view is that God never gives saving faith that is unauthentic, non-genuine, false... faith in Buddha or the Democrat Party or Crystals or UFO's but His gift of saving faith always is in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Sure, that faith may be strong and intense, bold and clear, constant and void of any questions - or not, but it's not the intensity of faith that is critical but the object of faith. Justification is not achieved by our emotions but by Jesus on the Cross and at the Empty Tomb.

In the other threads where we've discussed the process of salvation, unless I misunderstand your position there's no way of knowing whether that faith comes from within or from without, and thereby no way of knowing whether it's real.

I'm not sure what you mean by faith being "real." Faith may be misdirected, trusting in something that isn't saving, but that's misdirected faith. And again, the point is not how intense our feelings might be but rather it's Jesus - and the objective reality of His atoning work; He is real. The real Savior. That's the point. Faith in Him is thus faith in what is real.

It's not about "some feeling in me", it's about a conscious decision that I need someone or something external to myself (in this specific case, that external someone is obviously Jesus Christ). If it's not a decision that I make to respond to something, how would I know if something has been done?

In Arminianism, salvation is something the dead, unbelieving, atheistic enemy of God achieves - sometimes with a bit of help from God (semi-Pelegianism) or entirely on their own (full Pelagianism). I reject both. Dead people don't do anything. The Dead before they have faith can't create life and give it to self so that they become alive. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and that Jesus does the saving.

Exactly HOW God does this is mostly mystery. You will find monergists (those who hold that Jesus saves as opposed to synergistists who hold that Jesus never saves anyone but rather makes salvation possible for everyone and offers it to everyone - but self saves self by the actions/decisions/feelings of and in self) who hold that God first gives spiritual life and that THEREFORE, no longer dead, God can instill the WILL to accept the things of God - God first gives life and then creates a will to accept the things of God - and as a result, there is faith. But even here, note WHO does it. Personally, I think that's way over-thinking (lol) and saying too much, none of that is taught in Scripture. I prefer to stick with Scripture and with the historic view that we don't fully comprehend the HOW (that's mostly divine mystery) but affirm that it's 100% God's doing, 100% Jesus saving, none of it - NONE of it - is the product of the dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemy of God's doing. No one saves self - not 100%, not 0.0001%. Jesus is the Savior - not just possibility maker or offerer.

How do I know something has been done? By noting the result. I never decided to come to life (say 9 months before my birthday) but I'm alive so I know it happened - even though I had NOTHING to do with it and never decided anything related to it. How do I know I'm an American? Even though I never decided to be? Because I am - whether I FEEL really American or not. Did I create and give myself life before conception? No. But I am alive. Did I choose to be born an American? No. But I am.

The good works James describes as evidence of our faith

Is evidence to others. God doesn't need it. We likely don't. But "evidence" here IMO means more like "revelation." It shows we have faith, it is the consequence of faith. Faith changes us - and that shows. I don't think James' point is that WE need proof that some work we did when we were spirituall dead has resulted in spiritual life.

I don't see how we can create faith and give it to ourselves

The alternative seems to be that God creates and gives it. This apprehends the atoning work of Jesus rather than displaces it with our work/creation/action.

If something is a free gift from God that doesn't preclude the idea that we have to take some step, however small, to accept the free gift.

Perhaps. But then why is that one going to heaven? If the REASON is that they took something from God, then the reason is THEY took something from God, THEY did something, THAT action is THE reason. This is the idea that Jesus is not the Savior since He actually never saved anyone, RATHER, that Jesus did everything necessary to PROVIDE salvation and then OFFERS salvation to everyone, but saves no one. Each dead, unbelieving, unregenerate enemy of God creates faith by self and then gives it to self - then that self takes salvation from Jesus and bingo, they are saved. I understand the "logic" in this Arminian view, but it's not only unbiblical (faith is the free gift of God, not the creation of dead unbelievers) but also means Jesus is not the Savior, each unregenerate dead enemy of God saves self by taking this from God.

Physical life can be used as an analogy up to a point - we don't get a say in whether we are born but can decide to end our own lives if we so choose.

Which PERHAPS might be a valid perspective as to why spiritual life can be ended. And thus the reason for all those "LAW" verses I quote in post #3.

That said if we do end our own lives we can't change our mind later and decide to come back.

True. But then the unbeliever can never decide. Spiritual life, faith.... these are not something the unregenerate, spiritually DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God can do - once or multiple times. I suspect "prodigal son" experiences are quite common (another problem with OSAS).

In a spiritual sense how would you liken this to a situation like the prodigal son who left home with his inheritance and then subsequently made the decision to return to his father?

I'd be careful to use that parable here (notice, I did not; If I did, I'd put it in the Gospel list). But God can give life and faith. Multiple times even.

I see encouragement in Scripture's words that nobody can pluck us from God's hand, although I don't see anything that supports the idea that we cannot walk away ourselves. The warning in Revelation to the church in Ephesus that "If you do not repent I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place" suggests that we can walk away.

Amen!


Blessings on your Christmas!


- Josiah



.

 

[Lees]

Lees, see post 22.

It's answered, complete with many Scriptures, notations as to the historic/orthodox view and my affirmation that God NEVER gives saving faith in anyone or anything other than Jesus so the whole OSAS insistence that God's gift of faith is often unauthentic, untrue, insufficient and misguided is, well, a point I don't accept.

No. You simply blew smoke to avoid answering. Again, it's a simple question.

Do you believe that one who places faith in Jesus Christ, is born again, receives eternal life, can lose that salvation, lose that eternal life, and go to hell?

Why are you afraid to answer?

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Do you believe that one who places faith in Jesus Christ, is born again, receives eternal life, can lose that salvation, lose that eternal life, and go to hell?

Again, yes.

See post 22 where I give numerous Scriptures, share the traditional view, etc. All to explain and support that YES, it is POSSIBLE.


@Lees

I asked you what each of these verses state... but you never answered. Are you afraid of what God states?

Here is what God says AGAIN:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

What does it mean IF you do not remain in me? Is it impossible to NOT remain in Him? What does it mean that that branch is thrown away, does it mean it's impossible for that to happen, it cannot happen? Then why did Jesus say it if it's not true, it can't happen?



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Why tell us to be faithful EVEN UNTO DEATH if it's impossible to not remain faithful?



Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Why did Jesus say we must stand firm TO THE END to be saved if we don't need to do that or if it's impossible to not do that?



1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Why does Paul state that some will ABANDON faith if they cannot do that, that's impossible? Why state something will happen if it cannot and will not? Why would Paul state something that's a falsehood, an impossibility?



Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

Jesus says THEY BELIEVED (not they lied about it), they BELIEVED. But fell away. So, why does Jesus Himself say they fall away if that's an impossibility, no one who believes CAN fall away?



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

So, they ONCE were in grace... but have FALLEN AWAY from that. But in OSAS, that's an impossibility, what Paul states here by divine inspiration cannot be true or correct.



Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Why say "IF" if there is no alternative? Why counsel us not to be moved away if it's impossible to be moved away?



2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Peter clearly is writing to people with faith. And he indicates that they can FALL AWAY from that, St Peter by inspiration states. But OSAS holds St. Peter has it wrong... absolutely wrong... it's not even possible to fall away. St. Peter by inspiration is stating a FALSE situation.


Now, show us that these verses state that we CANNOT fall away from faith, CANNOT fall away from grace, cannot abandon the faith - all that is an IMPOSSIBILITY according to the above Scriptures.




.

 

[prism]

Yes!!!

(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

It just hinges on whether or not Jesus has begun His good work in the Christian.

 

[Lees]

Again, yes.

See post 22 where I give numerous Scriptures, share the traditional view, etc. All to explain and support that YES, it is POSSIBLE.


@Lees

I asked you what each of these verses state... but you never answered. Are you afraid of what God states?

Here is what God says AGAIN:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

What does it mean IF you do not remain in me? Is it impossible to NOT remain in Him? What does it mean that that branch is thrown away, does it mean it's impossible for that to happen, it cannot happen? Then why did Jesus say it if it's not true, it can't happen?



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Why tell us to be faithful EVEN UNTO DEATH if it's impossible to not remain faithful?



Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Why did Jesus say we must stand firm TO THE END to be saved if we don't need to do that or if it's impossible to not do that?



1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Why does Paul state that some will ABANDON faith if they cannot do that, that's impossible? Why state something will happen if it cannot and will not? Why would Paul state something that's a falsehood, an impossibility?



Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

Jesus says THEY BELIEVED (not they lied about it), they BELIEVED. But fell away. So, why does Jesus Himself say they fall away if that's an impossibility, no one who believes CAN fall away?



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

So, they ONCE were in grace... but have FALLEN AWAY from that. But in OSAS, that's an impossibility, what Paul states here by divine inspiration cannot be true or correct.



Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Why say "IF" if there is no alternative? Why counsel us not to be moved away if it's impossible to be moved away?



2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Peter clearly is writing to people with faith. And he indicates that they can FALL AWAY from that, St Peter by inspiration states. But OSAS holds St. Peter has it wrong... absolutely wrong... it's not even possible to fall away. St. Peter by inspiration is stating a FALSE situation.


Now, show us that these verses state that we CANNOT fall away from faith, CANNOT fall away from grace, cannot abandon the faith - all that is an IMPOSSIBILITY according to the above Scriptures.

(John 15:4-7) is about bearing fruit. Not about losing ones eternal life and going to hell.

(Rev. 2:10) is about the reward giving. Not about losing ones eternal life.

(Matt. 10:22) is not about eternal salvation. It is to Israel alone as they preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. (Matt. 10:5-6) It addresses the time, which will be the future Tribulation., when they are faithful to the end of that Tribulation. Salvation here is being delivered from the persecution against the Jews.

(1 Tim. 4:1) indicates some will depart from the faith in the latter days. It doesn't say that these were/are Christians. Just as Europe, and the West, and America, have departed from the faith that established them. The Church today has departed from the faith.

(Luke 8:13) describes one who at first believes but then falls away. To 'fall away' doesn't speak to loss of eternal life. It does speak to a loss of fruit bearing. Which is what the parable is about. (Matt. 13:33)

In (Gal. 5:4), to fall from grace is not a loss of eternal life. It is trying to walk the Christian life by the Law. Christ is no profit to them, is of no affect in their walk. They walk by Law, not by Grace. (Gal. 5:1-4) They become entangled with the yoke of bondage. (5:1)

Concerning (Col. 1:23), it is possible to move away from the faith and the gospel. But when you do, your life will not reflect that for which it was intended. It is not a loss of eternal life. It is a loss of ones walk of salvation here. This presentation, (1:22), involves our lives before God here. See (Eph. 1:4). "that we should be"

(2 Peter 3:17) says nothing about losing ones eternal life. Just as one can fall from grace, so can he fall from his steadfast position. It's about your walk of salvation, not your loss of eternal life.


With your position, that we as Christians can lose eternal life and go to hell, the Holy Spirit didn't do a very good job in sealing us till the day of redemption. (Eph. 4:30)

Lees

 

[Lees]

The bible never says that God will take away salvation. BUT the Bible DOES say that Man can reject God and His gift of faith and walk away. That's why Lutherans reject Once Saved, Never Saved.

I assume you are talking about a man that has been born-again and has eternal life. If so, I would disagree. (Rom. 11:29)

I don't understand 'Once saved, Never Saved'.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I assume you are talking about a man that has been born-again and has eternal life. If so, I would disagree. (Rom. 11:29)

I don't understand 'Once saved, Never Saved'.

Lees

Luke 8:13; 1 Corinthians 10:12; Galatians 5:4; 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:17 These verses show that those who had faith CAN fall and that's not God's doing, but their own turning away from Him, rejecting Him and his salvation.

 

[Lees]

Luke 8:13; 1 Corinthians 10:12; Galatians 5:4; 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:17 These verses show that those who had faith CAN fall and that's not God's doing, but their own turning away from Him, rejecting Him and his salvation.

Yes, the Christian can fall and stumble, as the warning says in (1 Cor. 10:12). That does not equate to loss of eternal life.

Concerning (1 Tim. 1:19-20), Paul's turning Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme does not equate to a loss of eternal life. And making a 'shipwreck' concerning faith, does not mean they lost eternal life. It does mean they are going to receive a severe judgement here.

The other verses you mention I addressed in post #(30).

What did you mean by 'Once Saved, Never Saved'?

Lees

 

[Josiah]

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

What does it mean IF you do not remain in me? Is it impossible to NOT remain in Him? What does it mean that that branch is thrown away, does it mean it's impossible for that to happen, it cannot happen? Then why did Jesus say it if it's not true, it can't happen?

is about bearing fruit. Not about losing ones eternal life and going to hell.

This does not state, "If you don't bear fruit you will still be saved and go to heaven and not be thrown to hell."

It states, IF you do not REMAIN in me. So, presently they are in him but that could change, they may NOT remain in Him. And then they will be thrown into fire and burned. What does the Bible call the place of fire?

IF it's IMPOSSIBLE to not remain in Him, why does Jesus talk about not remaining in Him? Why does Jesus warn us about something that CANNOT happen? Why speak of being thrown into fire if that cannot happen?

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Why tell us to be faithful EVEN UNTO DEATH if it's impossible to not remain faithful?

is about the reward giving. Not about losing ones eternal life.

So, the Crown of Life has nothing to do with heaven?

Why tell us to be faithful UNTO DEATH if it's impossible to not be?

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Why does Paul state that some will ABANDON faith if they cannot do that, that's impossible? Why state something will happen if it cannot and will not? Why would Paul state something that's a falsehood, an impossibility?

indicates some will depart from the faith in the latter days. It doesn't say that these were/are Christians.

It states some will ABANDON faith. It's impossible to abandon something you don't have, so clearly they HAVE faith. But some will ABANDON the faith they have. Look up the word "abandon" (perhaps you don't know what it means). So, obviously, it's possible to no longer have faith once held.

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

Jesus says THEY BELIEVED (not they lied about it), they BELIEVED. But fell away. So, why does Jesus Himself say they fall away if that's an impossibility, no one who believes CAN fall away?

describes one who at first believes but then falls away.

They believed FOR A WHILE. For a while. You claim that it's impossible to believe for awhile; that once we believe we will believe always, forever. So why is Jesus talking about something that cannot be true?




You are clearly, obviously, undeniably just evading the clear words of Scripture. While showing you have not one Scripture that says if we believe at some point, we will ALWAYS believe or that there is salvation without faith in Christ. NOTHING that states Once Saved, Always Saved.... and clear denials of what the Bible obviously verbatim states.




.

 

[Lees]

This does not state, "If you don't bear fruit you will still be saved and go to heaven and not be thrown to hell."

It states, IF you do not REMAIN in me. So, presently they are in him but that could change, they may NOT remain in Him. And then they will be thrown into fire and burned. What does the Bible call the place of fire?

IF it's IMPOSSIBLE to not remain in Him, why does Jesus talk about not remaining in Him? Why does Jesus warn us about something that CANNOT happen? Why speak of being thrown into fire if that cannot happen?








So, the Crown of Life has nothing to do with heaven?

Why tell us to be faithful UNTO DEATH if it's impossible to not be?








It states some will ABANDON faith. It's impossible to abandon something you don't have, so clearly they HAVE faith. But some will ABANDON the faith they have. Look up the word "abandon" (perhaps you don't know what it means). So, obviously, it's possible to no longer have faith once held.








They believed FOR A WHILE. For a while. You claim that it's impossible to believe for awhile; that once we believe we will believe always, forever. So why is Jesus talking about something that cannot be true?




You are clearly, obviously, undeniably just evading the clear words of Scripture. While showing you have not one Scripture that says if we believe at some point, we will ALWAYS believe or that there is salvation without faith in Christ. NOTHING that states Once Saved, Always Saved.... and clear denials of what the Bible obviously verbatim states.

(John 15:5) "...He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit...." (John 15:8) "Herein is my father glorified, that ye bear much fruit...." This is about 'fruit bearing' not loss of eternal life.

Neither does it say if you don't bear enough fruit, or any fruit, you as a believer will lose your eternal life and go to hell.

Just because the term 'fire' is used does not mean it is speaking of the fires of hell. Just like when the term 'saved' is used, it doesn't always speak to eternal life.

The believer is always in Christ, but not always abiding in Christ.

Concerning (Rev. 2:10), the crown of life is a reward given for faithfulness to death. It itself is not a method to eternal life. Some will receive it, some will not.

I didn't say it is impossible to not be faithful unto death. I said there will be those who are not, and will not receive a crown. But our eternal life is not based upon our being faithful unto death.

Concerning (1 Tim. 4:1) there is no indication that those that departed from the Christian faith are Christians. Just like there are many today who are part of the Christian faith, but not Christian. In fact, contrast is made between these that departed and the believer in (4:3).

Concerning (Luke 8:13), I never said it was impossible for one who believes to fall away. I said just the opposite. I do say that once we believe on Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour, we have eternal life forever. The believer can fall away, can fall into unbelief. But 'falling away' does not equate with loss of eternal life. Just like I showed you in (Matt. 13:23), the parable is about fruit bearing.

I am not evading. I am answering your questions. Why didn't you address (Eph. 4:30) which I gave. So, I ask you, why didn't the Holy Spirit do a better job of sealing us till the day of redemption? Just who got sealed? And, do you think a believer can overpower the sealing of the Holy Spirit?

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

I haven't read every response to this. But as I've studied Calvinism I've come to the conclusion that a good Calvinist would never say Once Saved Always Saved.

They would say "Once Elect always Elect". With the Elect being those chosen by God, saved by God, and kept by God. Therefore, if someone renounces their faith it doesn't mean that they didn't have at least some form of faith. It means that they aren't part of the elect.

Much of the "Perseverance of the Saints" goes back to Saint Augustine. It is not that some will not fall away. It is that God will give the gift of perseverance to the Elect.

Saint Augustine: On the Predestination of the Saints (Book II)​

Chapter 19.— Why Does God Mingle Those Who Will Persevere with Those Who Will Not?​

Let the inquirer still go on, and say, Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end? Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us. 1 John 2:19 Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure. For that which the apostle says, checks many from mischievous elation: Wherefore let him who seems to stand take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12 But he who falls, falls by his own will, and he who stands, stands by God's will.

​

 

[bbas 64]

Good Day,

I reject the OSAS construct .

I will say I am with Augustine on the question:

Augustine (354-430): Of such says the apostle, “We know that to those that love God He worketh together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s; of which He elsewhere says, “That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her that the elder shall serve the younger.” And in another place he says, “Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.” When, therefore, we hear,” Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, “He worketh together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose,” and then added, “Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren And to these promises He added, “Moreover, whom, He did predestinate, them He also called.” He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord’s: “Many the called but few are elected.” For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood! NPNF1: Vol. V, A Treatise

You might read his work on the issue:

A TREATISE ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE,
BY AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO

Philip Schaff: NPNF1-05. St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

I will take the historical approach to the teaching of preserverance. As Augustine wrote and taught to the believers in Africa and I will para phase it here.

Once a person is elected unto salvation, though the work of Christ that is done in accordance with the will of the Father and determined before the foundations of the world for it was then he was the sacrifice for God's elect as his gift to his own.

Preservering is much the same a gift, as the first Adam fell so to do we. Are falling is only repaired though Christ by Christ in accordance to the will of the Father. So too is our perservering we do so though Him and by Him, when He fails to sit at the right hand of the Father, so to will we.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.



Augustine (354-430): "Perish the thought, however, that Dr. Christ should lose in those whom he foreknew and predestined; because they are the ones he also called; and those he called are the ones he also justified; while those he justified are the ones he also glorified. Curb your vices, quench your lusts, let the devil and his angels be tormented with frustration; if God is for us, who can be against us"? (Rom 8:29-31). John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 6, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermons, Sermon 229E.3 (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), p. 283.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

The bible never says that God will take away salvation. BUT the Bible DOES say that Man can reject God and His gift of faith and walk away. That's why Lutherans reject Once Saved, Never Saved.

Good day, Lamb

LONGGGG Time:

Hope you are well..

Does God know before he offers ( of course I will assume it is offered) the gift who will receive it and who will reject it?

Just as a side if you are interested, my dear friend James Swan did a bit of research.

Did Luther Believe Salvation Can Be Lost?

I haven't come across a lot of material on whether or not Martin Luther believed a Christian can lose salvation. It's not surprising to fin...

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com

I love Luther but we do not always agree....

In Him,

Bill

 

[Josiah]

I love Luther but we do not always agree....

In Him,

Bill

Good to see you, Bill....

I don't always agree with Luther either, but I do on this one.


.

 

[Josiah]

This is 17 minutes long. I think it's good.

.