Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

I agree, God given Faith receives that which is objectively true even before it is believed,

How do we 'receive' something that is objectively true?
By hearing or by seeing?

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;

 

[brightfame52]

Just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus !


Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Now what is Paul Preaching here ? Is he teaching that one must believe on Jesus Christ as a condition in order for God to Justify them ? God forbid, for that is Justification by the work of man, believing is an act of man ! Man is not and cannot be Just before God by any act of his, but Justification before God is always conditioned upon the act or actions of Jesus Christ !

Now Christ's action can be described as His Obedience Rom 5:19, or His Faithfulness to God Heb 2:17;3:2, and its this that God Justifies a person or persons.

In the original the words "which believeth in Jesus " are in the genitive case, which means Jesus Faith is being spoken of, and a better translation would read, He is Just and Justifying he which has the Faith of Jesus .

In other words, God s Just in Justifying those who have Christ Suretyship Faithfulness charged to them !

Here are some translations that capture the genitive :

in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for Him to be just, and justifying the one of the faith of Jesus. berean literal bible

He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies anyone who has the faithfulness of Jesus. International Standard Version

This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness. NET Bible

manifesting in this time his righteousness that he only be the just one and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus. Jubilee Bible 2000

Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible

for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of [the] faith of Jesus.
Darby Bible Translation

See all whom Christ represented as Surety partake of His Surety Headship Faithfulness, just like all whom Adam represented took part in his surety headship unfaithfulness !

And since Christ by His Suretyship Faithfulness both obeyed Gods Law perfectly for His People He represented, as well as suffered their wages of death for their unfaithfulness, that cleared them of all guilt and declared them Righteous before God !

14

 

[brightfame52]

How do we 'receive' something that is objectively true?
By hearing or by seeing?

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;

So do you believe everyone Christ died for is objectively Justified before God prior to them believing and while still ungodly ?

 

[Josiah]

How do we 'receive' something that is objectively true?
By hearing or by seeing?

@prism


By faith.

What is RECEIVED by faith is objectively there (here, our heretical friend is correct - as the verses he quotes show) BUT it is not a reality personally received, applied, apprehended. It does not benefit the individual if it's not applied to the individual, and that happens by faith - the divine gift of faith. Faith can come in various ways - but that's irrelevant to this discussion, the point here is that it must be present (however that comes about). There is no personal justification apart from faith; our friend is a heretic because he denies this, he argues for personal justification APART from faith.

Let's say I get passes to everyone here at CH to go to all 4 parks at Disney World.... I buy 4 day "hopper" passes for everyone here. I paid for them. I have them. An objective REALITY - the passes exist, they are real. Does that therefore benefit you? No, you must receive yours and use them! Only then will you enjoy Disney World. Yes, the reality exists apart from faith (what our friend gets right) but it does not benefit the individual apart from faith (here he is a heretic). He simply denies the distinction between OBJECTIVE justification and SUBJECTIVE justification. His persistent heresy.




.

 

[Albion]

Let's say I get passes to everyone here at CH to go to all 4 parks at Disney World.... I buy 4 day "hopper" passes for everyone here. I paid for them. I have them. An objective REALITY - the passes exist, they are real. Does that therefore benefit you? No, you must receive yours and use them! Only then will you enjoy Disney World. Yes, the reality exists apart from faith (what our friend gets right) but it does not benefit the individual apart from faith (here he is a heretic). He simply denies the distinction between OBJECTIVE justification and SUBJECTIVE justification.

Nicely done, Josiah. Although I hate to prolong this thread for any reason, I'm interested to see how our friend will respond to this post of yours. From what we saw in his previous messages, he appeared to repeatedly take one side of the issue and then take the opposite side.

If the reply is either "You don't understand" or "You in unbelief," the thread has probably run its course.

 

[prism]

So do you believe everyone Christ died for is objectively Justified before God prior to them believing and while still ungodly ?

Before I answer your question, you need to answer mine...

"How do we 'receive' something that is objectively true?
By hearing or by seeing?"

 

[prism]

@prism


By faith.

What is RECEIVED by faith is objectively there (here, our heretical friend is correct - as the verses he quotes show) BUT it is not a reality personally received, applied, apprehended. It does not benefit the individual if it's not applied to the individual, and that happens by faith - the divine gift of faith. Faith can come in various ways - but that's irrelevant to this discussion, the point here is that it must be present (however that comes about). There is no personal justification apart from faith; our friend is a heretic because he denies this, he argues for personal justification APART from faith.

"By faith" are the words Mr. Bright would have to answer, but he is so ALLERGIC to that word, he couldn't spew it out, but rather threw back a question to me instead (post# 1143).

 

[brightfame52]

If God justifieth the Ungodly ?

If God justifieth the Ungodly the ungodly as it states in Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Then His Justifying of them is prior to that ungodly one believes, for if not, then if believing is the condition of ones Justification before God, then it only stands to reason that believing is before ones Justification, in which case that one was a believer before Justified, and not ungodly, for never in scripture is a believer recognized as ungodly, but Rom 4:5 teaches that God Justifieth one while being ungodly, and therefore before ones Faith or Believing !

This is the same as they being reconciled to God while being enemies or ungodly Rom 5:10, so it can be also stated, that believeth on Him that reconciled the Ungodly, but how ? Not by their faith, for they are ungodly enemies, but by the death of His Son !

 

[prism]

If God justifieth the Ungodly ?

If God justifieth the Ungodly the ungodly as it states in Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Then His Justifying of them is prior to that ungodly one believes, for if not, then if believing is the condition of ones Justification before God, then it only stands to reason that believing is before ones Justification, in which case that one was a believer before Justified, and not ungodly, for never in scripture is a believer recognized as ungodly, but Rom 4:5 teaches that God Justifieth one while being ungodly, and therefore before ones Faith or Believing !

This is the same as they being reconciled to God while being enemies or ungodly Rom 5:10, so it can be also stated, that believeth on Him that reconciled the Ungodly, but how ? Not by their faith, for they are ungodly enemies, but by the death of His Son !

Election is the condition of one's faith, not believing or some type of 'previous justification' or some type of previous 'imputed righteousness'.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification and Remission of sins are the same thing !

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now its plain here that Paul contributes Justification freely by Gods Grace, through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, which is through His Blood according to Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now the Redemption which is through His Blood provides the forgiveness of their sins, according to the riches of Gods Grace, whereas in Rom 3:24 instead of saying forgiveness of sins, Paul says " being Justified"

This forgiveness of sins comes before Faith, in fact, we must receive a Knowledge of it, which means the fact of it is a reality with God, before one receives the Knowledge of it Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

This also tells us that remission of sins equals Salvation and Justification, in other words by receiving a Knowledge of our remission of sins, we are receiving a knowledge of our Salvation and or Justification ! 15

 

[brightfame52]

Election is the condition of one's faith, not believing or some type of 'previous justification' or some type of previous 'imputed righteousness'.

False teaching, if you mean ones faith is the condition for ones election and justification,

 

[prism]

False teaching, if you mean ones faith is the condition for ones election and justification,

No, I said 'Election is the condition of one's faith'.
[Staff Edit]

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by God is manifested by the Resurrection of Christ !

Faith in and of itself, even Spirit given Faith Gal 5:22 does not Justify one before God, simply because the Resurrection of Christ from the dead is a God given testimony/declaration that God has Justified all for whom Offences He Christ was delivered for, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

who was betrayed and crucified because of our sins, and was raised [from the dead] because of our justification [our acquittal—absolving us of all sin before God].AMP

Justification and Acquittal are the same, and the word Acquittal means:

the discharge or settlement of a debt, obligation, etc. This is also Forgiveness of sins, the word forgiveness for instance in Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Its the word aphesis and means:

a sending away, a letting go, a release, pardon, complete forgiveness.

áphesis (from 863 /aphíēmi, "send away, forgive" ) – properly, "something sent away"; i.e. remission ("forgiveness"), releasing someone from obligation or debt

And this forgiveness, Acquittal, Justification of them through Christ is declared by God Himself by raising Christ from the dead ! 15

 

[brightfame52]

No, I said 'Election is the condition of one's faith'.
[Staff Edit]

See post 1150

Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

I agree, God given Faith receives that which is objectively true even before it is believed, How do we 'receive' something that is objectively true? By hearing or by seeing? Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked...

christianityhaven.com

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by God is manifested by the Resurrection of Christ 2

Now that God has declared them Justified and forgiven and Acquitted before Him by Christ's [Their Covenant Surety Head] Resurrection from the dead, Its once again to be declared as a Spiritual Testimony to their souls, this is by God given Faith through the New Birth, which Faith is the substance of[Spiritual] things hoped for and the evidence of [Spiritual] things not seen Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The Justified and Acquitted ones BY nature cannot see or perceive their Justification, so Paul writes 1 Cor 2:7-12

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the[Spiritual] things that are freely given to us of God.

The deep things of God Vs 10 means things Spiritual related to Divine Things and Justification hidden in God Himself, not knowable by man !

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by God is manifested by the Resurrection of Christ 3

1 Cor 2:7

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

This Wisdom of God in a Mystery the Apostles Preach is nothing less than the Gospel of Christ, and its hidden wisdom , permanently so for them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3

We know that the Wisdom of God here in 1 Cor 2:7 is the Gospel of Christ, because he had just written this 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Also the Gospel is the Mystery of Christ Eph 6:19

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 4:3

3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

So now understand, when we read in 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This is speaking the Wisdom of God in a Mystery, and hidden to them that are lost, and the things that Christ accomplished by His death must be revealed to us by His Spirit 1 Cor 2:10

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

And Faith is a fruit of the same Spirit Gal 5:22, and through the Spiritual fruit of Faith from the Spirit, God gives one testimony of their Justification by the Blood of Christ, yet the Justification preceded the Faith, for the Resurrection declared that to be so Rom 4:25 !

15

 

[brightfame52]

What is True Justification by Faith ?

Now it has been established by me in my previous posts and threads, that Justification before God is prior to ones believing, in fact prior to their natural existence as sinners, but scripture also makes it clear that the Justified ones [before God] shall Live by Faith, Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

As it is written looks back to the OT scriptures, the Prophets Hab 2:4

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And Living by Faith begins, when God through the Preaching of the Gospel, and the persuasive Power of the Holy Spirit, affirms in the Justified ones soul, that they are Just/Justified and forgiven of all their sins, like here in Acts 13:38

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

In other words, by this Preaching directly to them specifically, their Justification/ Forgiveness through Christ is positively being declared to them, being made known to them by Preaching and the Holy Ghost with Power, remember Paul wrote to the Thessalonians this 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The Gospel came to them with powerful persuasiveness ! That word assurance, the greek word plērophoria means:

I.full assurance, most certain confidence, also it means:

C.to fill one with any thought, conviction, or inclination

i.to make one certain, to persuade, convince one


ii.to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

Translated also Lk 1:1

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Their forgiveness Preached unto them Acts 13:38 means their Justification from all sin is announced to them, convincing, persuading them of the same, that's the Spirits Work upon the Justified, He convinces them of their discharge from the penalty of their sins and the condemnation sin brings because of the violated, transgressed law !

 

[Albion]

What is True Justification by Faith ?

Now it has been established by me in my previous posts and threads, that Justification before God is prior to ones believing, in fact prior to their natural existence as sinners, but scripture also makes it clear that the Justified ones [before God] shall Live by Faith, Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So, the issue now is how to correctly understand what living by faith means. That's been the issue for some time now.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

In other words, by this Preaching directly to them specifically, their Justification/ Forgiveness through Christ is positively being declared to them, being made known to them by Preaching and the Holy Ghost with Power, remember Paul wrote to the Thessalonians this 1 Thess 1:5

Nope.

The importance of Faith is made known to them, but that's different.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The Gospel came to them with powerful persuasiveness ! That word assurance, the greek word plērophoria means:

I.full assurance, most certain confidence, also it means:

C.to fill one with any thought, conviction, or inclination

i.to make one certain, to persuade, convince one

Well, why would any mortal need to be "convinced" or "persuaded" if, as you've contended, it's long since been settled and accomplished by God?

ii.to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

...or "assured" of it?

 

[brightfame52]

What is True Justification by Faith ? 2

Their forgiveness Preached unto them Acts 13:38 means their Justification from all sin is announced to them, convincing, persuading them of the same, that's the Spirits Work upon the Justified, He convinces them of their discharge from the penalty of their sins and the condemnation sin brings because of the violated, transgressed law !

God is now by the foolishness of Preaching is making it known to them, that is making known to them of their discharge, acquittal from all sin, and being declared Just or righteous, and this is how they come to now know it and receive it by Faith, because the Preaching of the Gospel to them [the justified] is the Power of God unto Salvation, meaning that it results in their Salvation as to their Conversion/deliverance from Unbelief to belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Note: The Salvation here is the Belief of the Truth opposed to believing that which is a lie or not true !

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So God uses the Spiritual Gift of Faith, a Fruit of His Spirit in them Gal 5:22, as an Instrument to declare to them their remission of sins/ or Justification, and hence thats why we have scriptures like Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By Faith there comes to the Justified one a Peace in now knowing experimentally that we have Peace with God Judicially through Jesus Christ !

Same with Rom 3:22,26

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

When we are Justified by Faith, it means that it has been given to be Justified within ourselves [with the knowledge of it] that we may find Peace through believing Rom 15:13

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

This is an excellent harmony with Rom 5:1, its Peace, Comfort, Joy which Faith gives through the Knowledge of the Truth unto our consciousness, awareness, fulfilling also Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

That results in Justification by Faith, to receive by God giving them a Knowledge of their Salvation in the remission of their sins !

That word knowledge means :

I.knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding,

gnṓsis (a feminine noun derived from 1097 /ginṓskō, "experientially know") – functional ("working") knowledge gleaned from first-hand (personal) experience, connecting theory to application; "application-knowledge," gained in (by) a direct relationship.15

 

[Albion]

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

That results in Justification by Faith, to receive by God giving them a Knowledge of their Salvation in the remission of their sins !

That word knowledge means :

I.knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding,

With that, however, you are merely defining the word that you selected (knowledge) in order to explain one particular thing about Faith, while you simultaneously avoid the functioning, meaning, and definition of Faith itself.