Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ !

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ , for the Justified; simply because the laying of their sins upon Christ was prior to their believing in Him, and the Laying of their sins upon Christ did Justify them from their sins, since when they were laid on Him, they could not be also laid upon them, and their sins condemned Him and not them. Those Christ died for, their sins and the punishment they accrued for them, have been legally taken away, even before any work of Grace begins in them by the Spirit of God !

 

[prism]

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ !

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ , for the Justified; simply because the laying of their sins upon Christ was prior to their believing in Him, and the Laying of their sins upon Christ did Justify them from their sins, since when they were laid on Him, they could not be also laid upon them, and their sins condemned Him and not them. Those Christ died for, their sins and the punishment they accrued for them, have been legally taken away, even before any work of Grace begins in them by the Spirit of God !

Yes, since you believe the whole world is objectively justified before God, then it would follow that Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ. That's just building on (what I believe is) a false premise though.

 

[brightfame52]

Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith ! Now false religion denies and discards this sacred truth, that initially and to begin with, that Justification before God, freedom from all condemnation and death due to sin, is solely by the Blood of Christ alone, and that is the testimony of the text Rom 5:9, and that its true even in light of Rom 5:1, for Justification by the Blood of Christ/and or the Obedience of Christ, which lead to His Death Phil 2:8;Rom 5:19, tis antecedent to ones God given Faith, in fact, its the very thing that is revealed to Faith, that one, prior to believing, had been Justified by the Blood of Christ before Gods Law and Justice.

A particular OT scripture is enlightening here which reads Ex 12:13

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

God passing over in Judgement and destruction is due to Him seeing the Blood of the slain lambs, not because of anything else, the word passover is the heb word pacach and means:

halt , spring over ,A primitive root; to hop, i.e. (figuratively) skip over (or spare);

Remember when God said to Abraham this Gen 18:24,26

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

The Idea is God will not destroy but spare from destruction, and this God would not do to them He sees the Blood of the Lamd in behalf of ! Thats what Rom 5:9 claims Justified by Blood of the Lamb, saved from wrath and or destruction !

See also Joel 2:17;Jonah 4:11; Mal 3:17

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Take that statement and remember what God said of Israel right before the Exodous Ex 4:23

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

If God has seen that Christ, His Lamb of God has shed His Blood for you, then He passes over you in Judgment and condemnation and destruction and wrath, we can never be of those who Paul writes of here 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And that is not because He sees our Faith, but solely because He sees the Blood of the Lamb ! Ex 12:13

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.14

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, since you believe the whole world is objectively justified before God, then it would follow that Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ. That's just building on (what I believe is) a false premise though.

You lying on me !

 

[Josiah]

You lying on me !

You have argued that there is personal justification APART from faith. A heresy.


.

 

[prism]

You lying on me !

Is that your best shot?

 

[Albion]

You have argued that there is personal justification APART from faith. A heresy.


.

That's true, but in addition it's a belief that almost no Christian church shares with Brightfame.

Considering the number of Bible quotations we've seen posted on this thread, you'd think that there'd be a noticeable number of Bible-believing Christians somewhere or other who read those verses the same way he does. Not a whole lot of them, maybe, but at least some.

 

[prism]

That's true, but in addition it's a belief that almost no Christian church shares with Brightfame.

Considering the number of Bible quotations we've seen posted on this thread, you'd think that there'd be a noticeable number of Bible-believing Christians somewhere or other who read those verses the same way he does. Not a whole lot of them, maybe, but at least some.

Scripture twisting anyone?

 

[brightfame52]

Him that Justifieth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This means God is Justifying them while they are being Ungodly, not when they are believing, but while Ungodly !

Now who are these Ungodly God is Justifying ? Why its those that Christ has died for Rom 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The Ungodly Christ died for, and His dying for them is how God Justifieth them ! The word ungodly is the greek word asebēs and means:

I.destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

irreverent, i.e. (by extension) impious or wicked:—ungodly (man).

This is their practical state when God is Justifying them by Christ dying for them.

Notice the words Christ died in Rom 5:Vs 6b

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The fact alone that Christ died Justified them, Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Also notice that after dying, He is risen again, which rising again was because of our Justification Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences[died], and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So His resurrection is evidence that those He died for are Justified while they are Ungodly, simply because He died for them ! 14

 

[brightfame52]

Is that your best shot?

Obviously it was your best shot.

 

[Albion]

Scripture twisting anyone?

Maybe some readers won't get the meaning of the comment you're laughing at.

If millions of believers--representing almost every denomination--see it the other way...then it's not a case of them having twisted anything.

But the same can't be said of any individual who comes up with his own unscriptural theory that categorically rejects the understanding of experts in the Bible, linguists, theologians, and the churches themselves.

As has been said before, some doctrines indeed are in dispute. They are usually the ones that are not critical to what makes us Christians. For example, there's the matter of the proper form of church government.

However, the place of Faith in the process of salvation is not in that category, which is why almost every church for 2000 years has agreed with what we've tried to get across to our friend here.

 

[prism]

Maybe you didn't "get" the meaning of the comment you're laughing at.

If millions of believers--representing almost every denomination--see it the other way...then it's not a case of them having twisted anything.

But the same can't be said of any individual who comes up with his own unscriptural theory that categorically rejects the understanding of experts in the Bible, linguists, theologians, and the churches themselves.

As has been said before, some doctrines indeed are in dispute. They are usually the ones that are not critical to what makes us Christians. For example, there's the matter of the proper form of church government. BUT the place of Faith in the process of salvation is not in that category, which is why almost every church for 2000 years has agreed with what we've tried to get across to you here.

Oh I got the meaning alright, but my giphy wasn't intended your way, but had 'Mr. Bright' as it's intended target, sorry for the confusion.
I'm also sorry for the misquote. Wait! It was actually a confirmation of what you were saying...Mr. Bright is scripture twisting.

 

[Albion]

Mr. Bright is scripture twisting.

And I too must apologize, because I meant to address his theory concerning justification but wrote it as though you were the proponent of that heresy. I'll change it.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified while enemies by the Blood of Christ alone !

Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Listen, being Justified by His Blood in Vs 9 is the very exact thing as being reconciled to God by His Death, its no difference except the verbiage . Now it should be observed to the credit of Christ's Death alone, that the reconciliation to God occurred as the believers were still in a unconverted state and enemies Rom 5:10, so likewise the Justification before God in Vs 9 did as well, it occurred while in a unconverted state and while enemies. This emphasis is made by Paul to show what special a blessing it is for Christ to die for us, it makes us righteous [Vs 9] and it restores us into the favor of God [being exempt from any of Gods Wrath as it is on others] and again, the only ground this blessing is pertinent to us is the Death/Blood of Christ and His Faith/Faithfulness !

Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies ! Rom 5:9-10 !

 

[Lamb]

Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies ! Rom 5:9-10 !

Faith doesn't DO...it receives. It receive that which is true, that Jesus died for our sins (that which happened objectively for justification).

 

[brightfame52]

Faith doesn't DO...it receives. It receive that which is true, that Jesus died for our sins (that which happened objectively for justification).

I agree, God given Faith receives that which is objectively true even before it is believed, Justification by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

However, judging from your previous post, I dont believe you really understand this truth.

 

[Albion]

I agree, God given Faith receives that which is objectively true even before it is believed, Justification by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

So, you think that Faith exists apart from anyone believing anything. Is that it?

However, judging from your previous post, I dont believe you really understand this truth.

Again, everyone--all of Christianity--misunderstands, but you stand alone when it comes to comprehending what the rest of the world doesn't! What, do you think, is the reason for your unique ability? Especially because you use incorrect English when telling us your theories, but yet you are also supposed to be an expert in the Greek and Hebrew languages???

 

[prism]

The cry of the Reformation, "justification is the article by which the church stands and falls.”, would be turned into a whimper, to Rome's glee, if @brightfame52 had his way.

 

[Lamb]

I agree, God given Faith receives that which is objectively true even before it is believed, Justification by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

However, judging from your previous post, I dont believe you really understand this truth.

Are you sure YOU understand then?

I mean, you repeated back what I said. You agreed that faith receives that which is true.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you sure YOU understand then?

I mean, you repeated back what I said. You agreed that faith receives that which is true.

You will make a sound comment out of one side of your mouth, then tear it down on the other side. What I agreed with I have stated over and over since I have been posting here.

I posted this back in June for example:

Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"? post 705