Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Albion]

So it does no good until it has been applied by faith.

"Does no good?" Where did you come up with that idea?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, in eternity:
No, in time.

Thats inconsistent, so its error. You cancelled out what you affirmed. Explain why God changed in time

 

[brightfame52]

So it does no good until it has been applied by faith.

So Christs blood does no good ?

 

[prism]

As I understand it, all but a tiny few radical Calvinists teach it. And some of them do but like our friend here, embraced the heresy that faith is irrelevant and therefore invented Universalism (The doctrine that Christ died for all and thus all are saves cuz faith is irrelevant). The moniker "objective justification" is not used by all the doctrine is taught by all - certainly by my Catholic teachers. It seems to me to deny objective justification is to flat out deny John 3:16 (and zillions of other Scriptures).

I believe I was referring to 'objective justification', and you're saying 'all but a tiny few radical Calvinists teach it'?
If you are referring rather to BF's odd teaching, I believe I have made it quite clear that I do not ascribe to it.

 

[prism]

Thats inconsistent, so its error. You cancelled out what you affirmed. Explain why God changed in time

We dwell in time, and God came to us in time via the Incarnation

 

[prism]

So Christs blood does no good ?

Those may be your words...not mine.

 

[prism]

"Does no good?" Where did you come up with that idea?

It makes as much logical sense as objective justification.
Who benefits from OJ except believers?

 

[brightfame52]

We dwell in time, and God came to us in time via the Incarnation

Its inconsistent, its God that Justifies, time isnt any factor with Him. What was the basis for mans Justification before God in eternity ?

 

[brightfame52]

Those may be your words...not mine.

Heres your words:

So it does no good until it has been applied by faith.

And you are referring to the Justifying death of Christ !

 

[Josiah]

its God that Justifies, time isnt any factor with Him.

Faith is a factor. And faith does exist in time.

What was the basis for mans Justification before God in eternity ?

... The atoning work of Christ for all people. Apprehended/trusted/relied upon via the divine gift of faith, which some are given.

you were referring to the Justifying death of Christ!

No, I think he was referring to personal justification - the atoning work of Christ applied to an individual. But he'll answer for himself.



Personal Justification...

Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, this is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation flows from God’s heart – not ours. Grace is God’s unmerited, unconditional love. Grace means “getting what we don’t deserve.” It is “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense”


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. It is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty.


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance (especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.”)


Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone be the glory). This simply proclaims that God gets ALL the credit for my salvation. His works, not mine. He is the Savior, not me.


“For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life!” Soli Deo Gloria!



.

 

[prism]

Its inconsistent, its God that Justifies, time isnt any factor with Him. What was the basis for mans Justification before God in eternity ?

Just as I figured, the Reformed, just like Calvin, has problems with the Incarnation.
The basis for justification before God in eternity was the shed blood which would be shed in time.

Romans 5:9 ESV
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

 

[prism]

Heres your words:



And you are referring to the Justifying death of Christ !

I was referring to 'objective justification', another construct of man.

 

[brightfame52]

Just as I figured, the Reformed, just like Calvin, has problems with the Incarnation.
The basis for justification before God in eternity was the shed blood which would be shed in time.

Romans 5:9 ESV
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Inconsistency is a sure indication of false teachings and beliefs. You making God mutable, He Justifies one in eternity, in time unjustifies the person, then after the person does something, justifies them again.

 

[brightfame52]

I was referring to 'objective justification', another construct of man.

So now you calling legal, objective Justification another construct of man. That means you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself Justified them He died for before they believed. So you may as well say that Christs death alone Justified nobody, which is unbelief

 

[brightfame52]

@prism

The basis for justification before God in eternity was the shed blood which would be shed in time.

Correct, and Jesus in the mind and purpose of God was slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God didn't have to wait until time came to past to reckon Jesus slain, for eternity past and future are all a abiding present to God, so the blood in Gods Mind had been shed for their sins before 33 ad, so in reality, if you deny people who Christ died for were not Justified by His blood when they were born into the world, you deny Justification by the blood.

Let me ask you, if Christ died in 33 ad, and someone He died for is born a sinner in 1963, are they Justified by His Blood in 1963 when they are born ? Yes or no

 

[prism]

Inconsistency is a sure indication of false teachings and beliefs. You making God mutable, He Justifies one in eternity, in time unjustifies the person, then after the person does something, justifies them again.

So is bearing false witness of what another believes. Where did I ever say that God 'unjustifies' someone?

 

[prism]

So now you calling legal, objective Justification another construct of man. That means you dont believe that Christs death in and of itself Justified them He died for before they believed. So you may as well say that Christs death alone Justified nobody, which is unbelief

It appears you are grasping.
Justification is a legal term by definition. I just don't hold to 'objective justification' (and I doubt you do) as it is is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world. Do you believe the whole world has been declared, 'not guilty'?

John 3:18 NKJV
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[prism]

God didn't have to wait until time came to past to reckon Jesus slain, for eternity past and future are all a abiding present to God, so the blood in Gods Mind had been shed for their sins before 33 ad, so in reality, if you deny people who Christ died for were not Justified by His blood when they were born into the world, you deny Justification by the blood.

Sure, God elects/predestines etc in the 2nd Person of the Godhead. I can back that up with Scripture, but can you show me where God justifies us in eternity apart from faith? Or I suppose we are now already glorified and have been given rewards? (2Cor 5:10)

 

[brightfame52]

So is bearing false witness of what another believes. Where did I ever say that God 'unjustifies' someone?

You make God out to be doubleminded, not knowing what He wants to do, Justify a person from eternity, then turn around and unjustify him when born, then justify them again when they believe. Thats mass confusion

 

[brightfame52]

It appears you are grasping.
Justification is a legal term by definition. I just don't hold to 'objective justification' (and I doubt you do) as it is is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world. Do you believe the whole world has been declared, 'not guilty'?

John 3:18 NKJV
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You confused, you dont believe in objective Justification but legal justification. They are practically the same thing. This is what I mean by objective Justification, that the ones Christ died for are justified objectively, without experiencing it, they are Just the objects of Gods legal justification, wherein He Justified them without their knowing it, by what Christ did in putting away their sins before His Law and Justice, and He counts them righteous on that basis alone.

Now do you believe what I just said, yes or no ?