Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

Status
Not open for further replies.

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Those were examples of something being meritorious. They were not examples of methods by which a person could find salvation.

That would be part of it, but I hope you realize that someone could assume that a certain action would be meritorious in God's eyes...but be mistaken about that.

For instance, some Christians think that it's possible to pray a deceased loved one out of Purgatory, but that belief doesn't at all mean that it IS possible to do that...or that there even is a Purgatory!
Only problem is that God deals with us on an entirely different economy...by grace...so using human examples is invalid, methods or no methods.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Only problem is that God deals with us on an entirely different economy...by grace...so using human examples is invalid, methods or no methods.
Then it's 'Brightfame' you should take it up with.
 

Messy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2023
Messages
1,553
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Those were examples of something being meritorious. They were not examples of methods by which a person could find salvation.

That would be part of it, but I hope you realize that someone could assume that a certain action would be meritorious in God's eyes...but be mistaken about that.

For instance, some Christians think that it's possible to pray a deceased loved one out of Purgatory, but that belief doesn't at all mean that it IS possible to do that...or that there even is a Purgatory!
It's amazing how you keep trying. I gave up already. Meritorious. Well I did learn a new English word.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,149
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Justification and Righteous before we believe !

That those Christ died for dont have to believe, obey, or repent, in fact do anything in order to be Justified from all sin and pronounced Righteous before God, that Truth is seen in Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And was raised again for or because of our Justification. Who are the Our here ? The Our is all for whom He was delivered for their or because of their offences !

Now in the text they are said to be Justified when Christ rose for their Justification ! Now did He raise for my Justifcation before I believed ? Wonder if one that comes to believe on Him did so in 1981, did Christ raise from the dead for their Justifcation before 1981 ? Of course He did ! Now the word Justification here is the greek word dikaiósis and means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.

emphasizing Christ's full payment of the debt for sin which liberates the believer[or the one Christ died for] from all divine condemnation.

The origin of the word dikaiósis is the word dikaioó:

the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

So the word carries both meanings, acquittal and the pronouncing of Righteous.

So all for whom He died and rose again for are both acquitted and pronounced Righteous before God, before they believe a thing, or even before they even know about it, it will be a Gospel revelation to them Rom 1:16-17. However, it was a fact before the Gospel revelation, and so their coming to believe it had absolutely nothing to do with it, for the fact were a reality[before God because of Christ] before they were even born sinners ! This is a Truth the antichrist followers cannot receive ! 12
 

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Justification and Righteous before we believe !

That those Christ died for dont have to believe, obey, or repent, in fact do anything in order to be Justified from all sin and pronounced Righteous before God, that Truth is seen in Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And was raised again for or because of our Justification. Who are the Our here ? The Our is all for whom He was delivered for their or because of their offences !

Now in the text they are said to be Justified when Christ rose for their Justification ! Now did He raise for my Justifcation before I believed ? Wonder if one that comes to believe on Him did so in 1981, did Christ raise from the dead for their Justifcation before 1981 ? Of course He did ! Now the word Justification here is the greek word dikaiósis and means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.

emphasizing Christ's full payment of the debt for sin which liberates the believer[or the one Christ died for] from all divine condemnation.

The origin of the word dikaiósis is the word dikaioó:

the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

So the word carries both meanings, acquittal and the pronouncing of Righteous.

So all for whom He died and rose again for are both acquitted and pronounced Righteous before God, before they believe a thing, or even before they even know about it, it will be a Gospel revelation to them Rom 1:16-17. However, it was a fact before the Gospel revelation, and so their coming to believe it had absolutely nothing to do with it, for the fact were a reality[before God because of Christ] before they were even born sinners ! This is a Truth the antichrist followers cannot receive ! 12
Is this what your Church teaches, or is this what you teach?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,149
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Is this what your Church teaches, or is this what you teach?
Its what the apostle Paul stated, read the texts I provided. If you dont believe, its unbelief !
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Then, Is there any church/denomination you can name that agrees with this personal opinion of yours?

If it were as simple as "Its [sic] what the Apostle Paul stated," almost every Christian church would be agreeing with you, but we already know that this isn't the case.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Again.... there IS a sense in which we are justified (narrow sense) before we are even born - it happen at the Cross and Empty Tomb some 2000 years ago. BUT, what is equally clear in Scripture and 2000 years of Christian faith, is that this justification is not APPLIED to an individual apart from faith, faith is the means by which it is applied/credited to an individual. There is no personal justification apart from faith.

Now, there's certainly some mystery here.... we just don't know EXACTLY how all this cranks out.... but these two truths are clear and important: Justification is achieved by Christ alone via His Life, Cross and Resurrection (and that's 2000 years ago - before you or I had faith) but we embrace it, we apprehend it, we gain it via the divine gift of faith. So we benefit from it via faith - and not before faith.

Some confuse this because of the radical (and unbiblical) invention of latter-day radical Calvinists and their invention of TULIP. And some confuse this because "faith" is spoken of in Scripture variously. In this context, faith is a verb meaning to trust/rely. But as a noun, we can mean the corpus of things believed (a cognative, "brain" thing) - doctrine. And rarely, it can mean a spiritual gift of some Christians - extraordinary faith - that enabled some things beyond justification (it's pretty vague in Scripture what this did). Some misapply the word....



.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Again.... there IS a sense in which we are justified (narrow sense) before we are even born - it happen at the Cross and Empty Tomb some 2000 years ago. BUT, what is equally clear in Scripture and 2000 years of Christian faith, is that this justification is not APPLIED to an individual apart from faith, faith is the means by which it is applied/credited to an individual. There is no personal justification apart from faith.

Well said!

We agree that the salvation of sinful men was God's plan from long before our own births. But the posters here who are on the "other side" of the basic issue from us do not simply point to that one aspect of the issue.

They GO ON to ADD that Faith is only an incidental part of it and is not meaningful in itself.

These members have claimed that Faith is merely a symbol or gesture, or a consequence of Faith, the process of justification having been settled long ago and completely independent of any profession of Faith in Christ coming from us.

So that's where the disagreement really lies.
 
Last edited:

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
These members have claimed that Faith is merely a symbol or gesture, or a consequence of Faith,
or a consequence of election, IOW, who has been of the Elect that has not , in time, been justified?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
or a consequence of election, IOW, who has been of the Elect that has not , in time, been justified?
Faith can be a "consequence of election" and still be meaningful, effective, and necessary. That's not what I was commenting on.

Rather, it was the idea expressed here on CH by some to the effect that Faith is nothing more than a residue, evidence of something or other that had happened--rather like a stain or a footprint-- but nothing that actually is a necessary part of the item or event itself.


Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
This is a different issue, however. God can foreknow and even predestine something, but nothing in those verses also says that whatever it was also had been finalized at that time. It's merely decided upon.

What it takes to complete the process or when that occurs is not mentioned. You merely assumed that it took place at the same time as God's decision about predestining someone.

As has been mentioned before, if your interpretation were correct, a large number of verses that implore us to have Faith, that talk about genuine Faith as opposed to phony claims of Faith, and refer to the necessity of all of us to come to Faith...would be meaningless at best and contradictions at worse.
 
Last edited:

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,149
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
All that believe are or have been Justified !

Even though false religionists dont believe it, wont accept it, nevertheless it must be preached, but only those who have been Justified, by the Merits of Christ's blood shed for them, do and can believe ! The reason why the masses of people dont believe and will not believe on Christ, its simply this ,They cannot because they were never of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So they cannot believe Jn 12:37-39

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

God gives only them Christ actually died for the ability to believe on Him, for His sake Phil 1:29, those only for whom He suffered and died, and by that, did satisfy all His Law and Justice FOR THEM ! All for whom He died He made them declared Righteous Rom 5:18-19

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And to them this Righteousness and Justification of Life is revealed to God given Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Understand, The Gospel makes known to them that Christ died for, the results of His death, Righteousness to them and or Justification of Life, For they had been freely Justified by His Grace through the Redemption [its efficacious value] that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
All that believe are or have been Justified !

Even though false religionists dont believe it, wont accept it, nevertheless it must be preached, but only those who have been Justified, by the Merits of Christ's blood shed for them, do and can believe ! The reason why the masses of people dont believe and will not believe on Christ, its simply this ,They cannot because they were never of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So they cannot believe Jn 12:37-39

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

God gives only them Christ actually died for the ability to believe on Him, for His sake Phil 1:29, those only for whom He suffered and died, and by that, did satisfy all His Law and Justice FOR THEM ! All for whom He died He made them declared Righteous Rom 5:18-19

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And to them this Righteousness and Justification of Life is revealed to God given Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Understand, The Gospel makes known to them that Christ died for, the results of His death, Righteousness to them and or Justification of Life, For they had been freely Justified by His Grace through the Redemption [its efficacious value] that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The heresy of limited atonement.... Yes, if that heresy were true, then you'd have a (very weak) case for salvation apart from faith - another heresy. But limited atonement is wrong.



.
 
Last edited:

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Faith can be a "consequence of election" and still be meaningful, effective, and necessary. That's not what I was commenting on.

Rather, it was the idea expressed here on CH by some to the effect that Faith is nothing more than a residue, evidence of something or other that had happened--rather like a stain or a footprint-- but nothing that actually is a necessary part of the item or event itself.
I just didn't think this sentence of yours made any sense...
"These members have claimed that Faith is merely a symbol or gesture, or a consequence of Faith, "
How could faith be a consequence of faith?
What it takes to complete the process or when that occurs is not mentioned. You merely assumed that it took place at the same time as God's decision about predestining someone.
In Rom 8:29-30, and elsewhere, it's rather obvious God completes what He began...

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

So yes, God is the 'what', and with God the 'when' will happen, it's just a matter of timeless eternity.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I just didn't think this sentence of yours made any sense...
"These members have claimed that Faith is merely a symbol or gesture, or a consequence of Faith, "
Just a slip-up, now corrected. Apparently, you are the only reader who didn't understand what was intended.

In Ellicott's Commentary, he explains the point this way--
"In his view, God’s grace is the beginning and the end; man’s co-operation lies in the intermediate process linking both together."

IOW, God's grace is eternal and timeless, but the fulfilment of this decision on God's part requires 'man's cooperation' (in orde4r to link the two together).


In Rom 8:29-30, and elsewhere, it's rather obvious God completes what He began...
No, it's not. Not in Romans 8:29-30 anyway, and that was your choice of proof text.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

So yes, God is the 'what', and with God the 'when' will happen, it's just a matter of timeless eternity.
Your interpretation contradicts Phil 1:6, so that's not the answer.
 
Last edited:

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The heresy of limited atonement....
...what our friend might refer to as a belief of "false religionists," I suppose. :)
.
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Universal Atonement, the usual theological name for the echo of Scriptures that state Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all people.


Just some of the Scriptures that state this:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all"

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all.

There are no Scriptures that state, "Jesus did not die for all people but only for some unknown few."


Notes:


1.
Universal Atonement does NOT mean that ergo all people have faith - and thus personal justification. There are those for whom Christ died that nonetheless are not saved (justified - narrow sense) since they don't have faith. Universal Atonement embraces that Christ died for all, not that all have faith.


2. Universal Atonement does NOT hold that salvation ONLY depends on the Cross (so that if Christ died for all, all are saved - that's called Universalism, an entirely different and heretical position). Personal faith is also essential (another doctrine). And Universal Atonement does NOT hold that faith is something the dead, unregenerate, atheistic sinner creates in self and gives to self (that too is another doctrine, a heretical one). Universal Atonement holds that Christ died for all, for everyone.


3. Some latter-day radical Calvinists renounced all the Scriptures that specifically verbatim state Universal Atonement, invented the doctrine of LIMITED Atonement, that Christ did NOT die for all, for everyone, for all people.... but ONLY for some unknown few. However, they have not one verse that states that and must reject MANY that specifically state the exact opposite of their view.


4. Universal Atonement is Gospel. Without it, NO ONE could even guess as to whether Jesus died for THEM (in Limited Atonement, He probably did not). We KNOW the Gospel is for us, we KNOW the Cross applies to us for one and only one reason: It applies to ALL, to EVERYONE. If it just some select, unknown FEW then no one CAN know if it applies to them, if it is for them, because there is no list of names in the Bible about who Christ died for and those He did not. Universal Atonement means we can present the Gospel to all because it applies to all, we don't have to add after John 3:16, "But this probably doesn't mean you, He probably wasn't given for you." The Gospel indeed rests on this for without this we are left with a "terror of the conscience" never knowing if God has grace, mercy, forgiveness, the Christ, the Cross FOR ME. Otherwise, the whole point of Christianity falls.... it's probably not even available or offered to ME.


Limited Atonement - the invention of a few latter-day radical Calvinists in the 17th Century that Jesus died ONLY for the elect and not all.

Scriptures that state that He died ONLY, exclusively, solely for the elect..... none. Nothing. Crickets.




.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
In Rom 8:29-30, and elsewhere, it's rather obvious God completes what He began...

This Scripture says nothing about personal justification apart from faith...

This Scripture says nothing about God always giving faith to all for whom Christ died....


Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

The context here is not personal justification or faith.

This verse does not state that God must give faith to all for whom Jesus died.

The "you" here are CHRISTIANS - those who have faith.

The "good work" here is advancing the Gospel, not personal justification.


Classic, traditional, biblical Christianity holds that personal justification is.... SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE - SOLI DEO GLORIA. All as one, united, inseparable truth. There is no personal justification if any part is missing. For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten son (Solus Christus and yes universal atonement) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will have everlasting life (and all this is God's doing - Soli Deo Gloria). There is no verse that states, "For God so loved some unknown few that He gave JEsus just for those unknowable people and to them alone God gives faith but they have salvation whether they have faith or not."



.

.
 

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
This Scripture says nothing about personal justification apart from faith...
I don't recall saying anything of the sort. (I'm not even sure what your comments have to do with Rom 8:29-30).




The context here is not personal justification or faith.

This verse does not state that God must give faith to all for whom Jesus died.

The "you" here are CHRISTIANS - those who have faith.

The "good work" here is advancing the Gospel, not personal justification.
Re: (Phil 1:6)
I was merely responding to Albion's comment of 'what it takes to complete the process.. Phil 1:6 answers that nicely.
You and Albion make a nice tag team, sometimes I can't tell if you are Anglican and he is Lutheran or vice-versa.
 

prism

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
711
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Just a slip-up, now corrected. Apparently, you are the only reader who didn't understand what was intended.
Yes, I tend to take things literally ( it must be the Dispensationalist part of me :) )
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom